The Atheism Thread - Part 5

[SentinelMind]

Guys, just look at his avatar. He clearly doesn't believe the baloney, and is just playing Devil's advocate for fun.

no, I'm serious...I'm a Baptist Christian. Ned is one of the most inspirational fictional animated sitcom characters on television. I can take the jabs, its not a big deal.

 

[SentinelMind]

That's the contradiction, either God is a flawed being (which I can accept) or he is a malevolent creator that knew that a lot of his flock would burn in Hell for all eternity and didn't make a perfect world to being with where there was no sin so that none of his children would suffer and everyone would get into Heaven.

He didn't want to create robots...he gave us free will..and some us will ultimately choose to reject our Creator, as sad as that is. Since God is life, those that choose to cut themselves from God...cut off their spiritual life.

 

[redhawk23]

He didn't want to create robots...he gave us free will..and some us will ultimately choose to reject our Creator, as sad as that is. Since God is life, those that choose to cut themselves from God...cut off their spiritual life.

He didn't want to create robots and yet had Adam and Eve followed his intent, they would have no knowledge of good or evil to begin with.

 

[Snow Queen]

Also, what's the point of free will if he gets mad and drowns the planet when they don't do what he wants anyway?

 

[chaseter]

He didn't want to create robots...he gave us free will..and some us will ultimately choose to reject our Creator, as sad as that is. Since God is life, those that choose to cut themselves from God...cut off their spiritual life.

If he gave us free will, what was the point of Eden? Wouldn't he know that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and disobey him?

If yes, then that means he is omnipotent and malevolent for purposely setting them up to fail. He new they would pick the forbidden fruit so why put the forbidden tree in the damn place to begin with? That is an evil creator.

If no, then he is fallible and short sighted because he didn't know that Adam and Eve would betray his trust. It's like giving a child a bottle of bubble gum smelling arsenic. You tell them not to eat it or there will be bad consequences. What do you think is going to happen?

As for your second point, what about those that don't choose to cut themselves from God because their parents taught them that the river god is the only true god and that they will burn in river god hell if they choose another god? Do those people go to Hell? Does the 13 year old kid in some jungle in Brazil go to Hell if he dies because he never heard of Jesus? If yes, how is that a loving god?

I truly challenge you to think those over. I am a Christian so please don't parrot to me stuff your minister told you. Just think it over and respond in your own words...not the Bible's.

 

[antonydelfini]

So what about people who live their life with relative ease? While life throws curves at everyone, there are people who face far more challenges and hardship in life than others, both currently and across time.

I don't know anybody who lives his/her life with relative ease. I was so poor when I was a kid, we used to sell stuff to the pawnshop just to pay the bills and debts. I'm a lot better off now as a businessman, but I realize that I am just facing a different set of problems now that I have more money. I can't say I'm happier now that I have more money. It gets easier in some things, but it becomes harder in others. Everyone has their own set of problems, whatever status you have in life.

As for the people who face more challenges and hardships than others, God never said in the Bible everyone will face the same level of hardships in life. You just have to choose between the light and darkness when facing hardships, whatever level of difficulty they might be. You hear stories of people doing crimes because they lost their job, and then you hear stories of people working harder and becoming better people when they lost their job. You hear stories of people becoming abusive and corrupt when they became wealthy, and you hear others become philanthropists and do charitable works when they became wealthy.

Jesus had it harder than most, and because he chose to shine bright through it all, he is now a source of inspiration for millions of people. And that's what God wants for those facing greater hardships in life, to shine bright and inspire. So that when other people face their own set of problems, however "easy" they might seem, they would be inspired by other people who managed to choose the light even if they faced much greater trials in life.

BTW, that's just how I see things. I have friends who are not religious in any way, but that doesn't mean we have to hate and disrespect each other. It's actually a great opportunity to show love and respect.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Just for the record, we only know the things we know about Jesus through the Bible, which was written by self-described worshippers. In other words, we know nothing about Jesus with any certainty, much less objectivity.

How people can build a religion around a person whose historicity (much less his divinity) is questionable, is beyond me.

Ironically, that's not what made me an atheist. But it would probably have been enough for me to realize that these stories are just that - stories. People should stop acting like they are factual.

You can not honestly ask me to respect that. I mean I will pretend to, but only out of fear.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

He didn't want to create robots...he gave us free will..and some us will ultimately choose to reject our Creator, as sad as that is. Since God is life, those that choose to cut themselves from God...cut off their spiritual life.

Hipster astronauts should be instagramming God from their low-orbit space shuttles by now. Where does this dude live? And how come he's like "meh" when 6 million Jews are systematically killed in nightmarish concentration camps, but he's like "yeah okay" when Tim Tebow needs to win a football game? If God is real, I still can't trust someone who has their priorities so messed up.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Has anyone actually read the writings of Martin Luther? The Protestant reformer, that is.

What he advocates that should be done to the Jews of Germany is so reminiscent of the Final Solution it's kind of eerie.

In his book "On the Jews and their Lies", he calls for the burning of Jewish schools, synagogue and homes. He says that their possessions should be taken away, and perhaps most... disturbingly, that they should be made to work as agricultural slaves.

Maybe we should add plagiarism to Adolf Hitler's list of crimes.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Damn, Thundercrack, I didn't know that, but that's crazy.

I do know that medieval clergy accused Jews of kidnapping Christian babies and using their blood to make their matzah. Seems very Christ-like behavior.

 

[antonydelfini]

Anyway, I researched some of the answers to some of the questions in this thread from other sites since I don't have the time and skill to write about all my thoughts and found an answer that coincides with my own:

"So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s perspective, it does not make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise, to paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?

The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

If God had created a world in which no one sinned, what aspects of his character could he have shown? His creative power, his loving-kindness, his provision for his people.
But what about his mercy? Or his justice? Or his wrath?
And would we have seen even his creative power to its fullest extent if there had been no death and therefore no resurrection?
Could we have known the greatness of his loving-kindness if he had not shown it to faithless Israel?"

 

[Thundercrack85]

No seriously look it up. My German ain't what is used to be, but it's written pretty damn plainly. Or you know, just read a translated copy.

He calls them swine, ****es... I mean really, it makes Mein Kampf look rather nuanced. Apparently even at the time it was considered a bit extreme.

I feel kind of bad for making so many jokes about Henry VIII. Sure he founded a church just to suit his libido, but at least he wasn't a genocidal racist, who inspired the holocaust.

Then again Henry probably only liked the Jews cause they helped him find a Biblical justification for his first divorce in the Old Testament.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

No seriously look it up. My German ain't what is used to be, but it's written pretty damn plainly. Or you know, just read a translated copy.

Oh, I believe you. Jews were going through hell long before the holocaust.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I find it all a bit disillusioning. ...and I'm a damn atheist.

You just wish there was one guy in there you could root for. But nope.

I do think this should be taught though.

 

[Heliflyer]

You realize, of course, those scholars acknowledge many of those contradictions as legitimately being what they are? No matter how you try to rationalize it, something like Judas killing himself by hanging and Judas killing himself by stabbing are completely at odds. The four gospels, in the first place, were canonized by Irenaeus to assuage the tension between different Christian groups at odds with one another rather than for any reason of consistency; if the earth possessing four corners and four winds is proof of the legitimacy of the four gospels then any Christian arguing in favor of a consistent theology is in trouble, indeed. And this isn't to mention the archaelogical escavations by Israel Finkelstein that completely discredit all suggestions that the Israelites wandered the Sinai Peninsula for 40 years.

To put it succintly, yes, Biblical Scholars have gone over those contradictions, some atheist/agnostic, some Christian, but the majority of them will attest that those contradictions aren't something that don't pose a problem. At the very least, "the average Joe", upon learning them, will be forced to reevaluate his beliefs.

And let's not forget about those pesky books in the bible that conveniently got left out!

 

[childeroland]

Anyway, I researched some of the answers to some of the questions in this thread from other sites since I don't have the time and skill to write about all my thoughts and found an answer that coincides with my own:

"So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s perspective, it does not make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise, to paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?

The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

If God had created a world in which no one sinned, what aspects of his character could he have shown? His creative power, his loving-kindness, his provision for his people.
But what about his mercy? Or his justice? Or his wrath?
And would we have seen even his creative power to its fullest extent if there had been no death and therefore no resurrection?
Could we have known the greatness of his loving-kindness if he had not shown it to faithless Israel?"

So people have to go through the suffering they do because God wanted to show how loving and powerful He is? Not a great apologia there.

 

[The End]

He didn't want to create robots...he gave us free will..and some us will ultimately choose to reject our Creator, as sad as that is. Since God is life, those that choose to cut themselves from God...cut off their spiritual life.

I think this is a dishonest framing of it. It's not that atheists 'reject their creator'. I'm not aware of any creator in order to reject them. It's the claim of god's existence I reject. Because there's no evidence. I'm not choosing to cut myself from god. And if god exists, HE is choosing not to care enough about evidence to reveal himself.

Furthermore, IF he exists, it makes him a *****ebag that he will make people burn in hell for not believing in him.

 

[redhawk23]

The House of Representatives have blocked a move to recognize secular chaplains in the United states military, 150-274. The 150 who voted in favor were all democrats.

While for a lot of people a secular chaplain may seem counter intuitive, chaplains represent an important resource providing a lot of functions including counsel and even presiding over weddings and other things that while important, don't require a belief in God.

What reason is there at all to not recognize secular chaplains?

In almost all other contexts, secular chaplains, particularly those from the American Humanist Association are recognized and ethical societies are treated the same way churches are.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What the hell is a secular chaplain?

 

[The End]

Pretty much a counselor, right? Someone an atheist can go to for comfort rather than going to a religious chaplain.

 

[Lunar_Wolf]

If I get into film school, I know in 3rd year we have to make a documentary. Love to do one on the afterlife.

I haven't started researching anything yet (in the middle of pre-production on a short), but once that is done I want to do research history, religion, the supernatural, science etc, etc.

If someone was to ask me if I believe in God, I can't give an answer because for me, its not that simple. If God exists, he is one hell of a complicated being. Right now, I can only surmise. I look at the big bang theory and think ''nothing comes from nothing'', if something caused the big bang, then what caused the thing that caused the big bang? And what caused the cause to cause the big bang? And so on, and so on.

I guess the documentary would be self-discovery more than anything.

 

[The End]

Have you guys heard of presuppositional apologetics?

A guy called Sye Ten Bruggencate has been pushing it hard lately.

What he attempts to do is show that reasoning is circular and that atheists can't account for knowledge.

He'll ask questions like, "could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?"

He wants to look for the merest hint of uncertainty in your world view. He then claims that he has certainty. He'll say that god's given him certainty via revelation. If you say that you could be wrong about everything you claim to know, he will say that you have given up knowledge and therefore have no basis to even challenge him.

There's been a number of theists that buy into it and copy his script when they preach to atheists. But I can't really say how many people follow it.

Objective observers of Sye's debates ought to be able to recognize the word games that Sye uses and that these presuppositional apologetics break down into assertions. Can we really distinguish someone saying "I'm right because god says I'm right" from someone that says "I'm right because I'm right"? The only way we could, would be for god's existence to actually be demonstrated. Which presuppositional apologetics doesn't do.

There are other problems. Sye and Isaac Newton both claim presuppositional knowledge of god and yet they disagree over the divinity of Christ. If they were to discuss it, what would that argument look like? It would just be two guys insisting that god is on their side and the other guy is wrong.

There's heaps of problems with it, really, I could go on and on about it but I was curious if anyone here has encountered it and what people think of it.

 

[The End]

Here's what it looks like.

[YT]5H-PfcP7MG8[/YT]

[YT]c2Y-ftXXROM[/YT]

Here is a pretty spot on analysis.

[YT]zmHOhNoKawQ[/YT]

 

[jmc]

I'd like to shine a light on how people interpret supernatural and religious experiences from a personal perspective. Recently I've been having some lucid dreams where I've been aware that I'm in a state of sleep and also having some form of control of what it is I'm able to do within that dream space. It's kinda strange to say the least, but also very interesting waking up afterwards because it genuinely feels like some of the events are happening for real. Twice now, including when I woke up today, I've dreamed what one would call a supernatural experience, I was lying in bed thinking I was awake when some really crazy stuff happened, first it felt like someone was pressing me down on the bed, then it felt like someone was whipping my arms back and forward, then I tried to move my arms and separate my fingers but it was if they were glued shut, and then finally the sheets on my bed began to levitate over me. If it was a scene in a horror film you'd probably call it a ghost. Instead of freaking out which is no doubt what some people would do my inner skeptical mind cottoned onto the fact that what was happening was impossible and that I was in a dream, I acknowledged it was a dream, told my myself to wake up and finally did so to find everything was perfectly normal, nothing out of the ordinary. Believe me when I say it all felt real, I could feel the pressure being applied to my body, it was a strange experience to say the least - but the thing is it was all me, I was the one doing it. So what's the point of this story? Well, I can kinda understand now why someone who experiences something similar might attribute it to a higher power if their upbringing is a religious one, when you're taught that certain type of magic is real it's only logical that would be the first thought you'd go to. Ultimately the brain is very powerful tool and capable of conjuring up all kinds of experiences, but at the end of the day it's still you who is doing everything.

 

[jmc]

I've decided to bump this up due to the new thread created for believers in Christ. My comments aren't really meant for that thread because that thread is for believers to share there love of that myth and I'm not one to go around causing arguments, I've got no problem with Hype members who believe in a higher power talking about it in a friendly environment, however I still think that thread should be open to all faiths.

However, one comment from SentinelMind I found extremely appalling,

There's often a lot of confusion as to what is required to be saved.

Do I need to stop sinning? Stop lusting? Stop lying? Stop cursing? If I've already hurt someone..is too late? What if I'm trying...trying so hard....trying to do right thing, but its too hard for me..am I doomed?

The fact of the matter is we're all sinners: We are all contained in a sinful, fleshy body that we all have to deal with for rest of our material life. No matter how much good intention we have, our flesh wants to sin, desires to do evil...that will stay with us as we stay in these physical bodies. That's something you, me, we all will have to endure. Nobody's perfect.

The notion that somehow we are all sinners and need 'saving' and are one step away from being 'evil' I find incredibly appalling, insulting and arrogant on the part of religion. That in order for me to be a virtuous person and live a life that is fruitful and fulfilling I have to submit myself to fictional being who has only allegedly appeared to a select few individuals in a couple thousand years infuriates me. Our flesh wants to sin SentinelMind? If by that you mean sex then ever considered that's what we're biologically meant to do? Desire for evil? The thought of me hurting people appalls me, and those who want to hurt others, well no amount of religion is going to save them. It's not that people need saving in the form of a fictional being, it's that people need saving from people like you who think that's the solution to a non existent problem. The only thing you mention that I agree with is that nobody is perfect - because we are human, we are a flawed species, we're not meant to be perfect. The best thing about being Atheist/Agnostic is actually being able to live your life the way you want to, not by the rules set out by a fictional dictator.