The Atheism Thread - Part 5

[jmc]

I actually believe that humans are born with a tendency towards religion.

If you don't understand how **** works, it makes sense that you would invent something to explain it. That's the start of every religion.

Early humans had no idea about their true nature, so they assumed someone created them. Once they figured out they lived on a planet, they assumed something created that, etc.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your side) all that leaves religious people is a god of the gaps.

It's not so much a tendency towards religion, it's a tendency toward fantasy and surprisingly enough that aspect of humans is there as a natural defensive mechanism.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Unchecked though, that leads to religion.

 

[jmc]

Unchecked though, that leads to religion.

Correct, the issue is religion corrupts that natural defense, logic and reasoning get screwed and triggers that fantasy region of the brain into thinking bizarre and unreal things. When we were still living in the trees that fantasy area of the mind was there to keep an eye out for predators - was that a gust of wind moving the bushes or a sabretooth tiger? Once we'd work out it was just the wind we'd continue what we were doing.

 

[regwec]

I doubt whether, if they had been alive today, many of the great Christian philosophers would have believed in God. There is a world of difference between applying creationist theory through the matrix of Aristotle's Metaphysics where that remains the least-implausible explanation for the physical universe; and simply ignoring all of the evidence that is available today because Genesis is simpler, more comforting or easier to understand. People like Augustine of Hippo were both intellectual and humble. I bet he would have been able to admit he was wrong.

 

[childeroland]

it could be something of a hyper-dimensional membrane essentially floating between dimensions, unknowingly creating multiple parallel universes.

That's a fascinating idea. Also there's a good movie or novel in it -- explorers journey to the edge of reality and this is exactly what they find. And then they do something wrong and the membrane turns conscious.

 

[redhawk23]

I think its more of a matter that humans seek answers. Religion is just one method, and a potent one, for answering questions about the world, just as warfare is just one option for resolving conflict or cooking over fire is just one method of preparing food.

Religion also incorporates also fulfills other needs involved in building and maintaining communities. Again potent and useful, but not necessarily natural and not the only avenue open to us.

 

[redhawk23]

What do you say about the people who were born blind and believe in a Creator?

They don't count?

Replace "see" with experience. Stop being so literal minded.

 

[Wams]

Replace "see" with experience. Stop being so literal minded.

Why?
I believe I understand how and when to be literal and figuratively speaking... Also seeing is an experience...is it not?
But for those who can not literaly see and still
experience a connection with the Creator...These are truly blessed.
Wouldn't you say?
Whoa to those who claim to see and deny the Truth....
On both sides of the argument.

 

[jmc]

That's a fascinating idea. Also there's a good movie or novel in it -- explorers journey to the edge of reality and this is exactly what they find. And then they do something wrong and the membrane turns conscious.

Thing about it also is that it's not an impossible idea, it works within the laws governing the universe.

 

[E-Man]

This is just another one of the many reasons why Neil DeGrasse Tyson is awesome. Also, in before, "He ain't no agnostic! He's an atheist!"
[YT]CzSMC5rWvos[/YT]

 

[redhawk23]

Why?
I believe I understand how and when to be literal and figuratively speaking... Also seeing is an experience...is it not?
But for those who can not literaly see and still
experience a connection with the Creator...These are truly blessed.
Wouldn't you say?
Whoa to those who claim to see and deny the Truth....
On both sides of the argument.

Exactly sight is a form of experience. That was my point. He wasn't just referring to "seeing" only. You can rephrase their point as "I experience the world therefore there is a creator." You were acting like he was excluding the blind or something.

 

[Piper Maru]

This is just another one of the many reasons why Neil DeGrasse Tyson is awesome. Also, in before, "He ain't no agnostic! He's an atheist!"
[YT]CzSMC5rWvos[/YT]

Love Neil DeGrasse Tyson! Thanks for sharing E-Man.

 

[htsopelas]

This is just another one of the many reasons why Neil DeGrasse Tyson is awesome. Also, in before, "He ain't no agnostic! He's an atheist!"
[YT]CzSMC5rWvos[/YT]

Nice video

 

[Warhammer]

I am a Christian (non-denominational Protestant) who is currently waning in my faith. How can I have faith in a God who seems to have forsaken my family in the midst of a financial crisis?

 

[Thundercrack85]

I hate to be a buzz kill, but there are no gods.

Even if there were, they're clearly useless. How many people do you think die praying every day?

It's like those poor people in Oklahoma. When they survive the tornadoes, they thank God. Even though their neighbors who died were probably just as "God fearing".

 

[redhawk23]

Look I don't believe in gods but is the fact that people die in any given way really proof that there is no god? Its certainly an argument against the supposed benevolence of god, but many religions and traditions never made such claims anyways. In many religions, especially those of past civilizations there were understandings of gods as spiteful, as petty or just utterly indifferent.

 

[SentinelMind]

I am a Christian (non-denominational Protestant) who is currently waning in my faith. How can I have faith in a God who seems to have forsaken my family in the midst of a financial crisis?

Job had everything taken away from him, family, money...and while his 'friends' wanted him to curse God...he thanked and praised his Creator anyway and he was rewarded for his patience. All believers, including I, have gone through difficult times, finances and unemployment few years ago.....I had to deal with family member passing away recently. In spite of that, when I focus on God (not on things)...I get peace...because I remember what he has done for me that nobody else did...when everyone else left behind , God came through. God rewards faith and patience on His will...not ours.

God doesn't promise anyone luxury and fantasy on this sinful earth for all time...we'll have times of pleasure and times of pain...but we should be focused on relationship with God and relationship with each other. The Bible is filled with incidents of followers waiting upon God and God delivering it on timetable he set forth. It's very common to curse God when things are bad, but forget about the wonders that He's given us...things that none of us deserve. He only promises eternal happiness after we leave our bodies...if we believe Jesus died and rose again on the third day and has power to forgive sins.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Of course not. But a common thread in religion is that prayer = good things happening to you. Or that the good lord is watching out for you.

Terrible things happen to religious people all the time (arguably at a higher rate than atheists, since socioeconomics show us that the poorest people are the most religious), so obviously either there are no gods, they're malevolent, or they're incompetent.

Either way you slice it, that is incompatible with the teachings of the Abrahamic all powerful, all knowing, benevolent god.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Job had everything taken away from him, family, money...and while his 'friends' wanted him to curse God...he thanked and praised his Creator anyway and he was rewarded for his patience. All believers, including I, have gone through difficult times, finances and unemployment few years ago.....I had to deal with family member passing away recently. In spite of that, when I focus on God (not on things)...I get peace...because I remember what he has done for me that nobody else did...when everyone else left behind , God came through. God rewards faith and patience on His will...not ours.

God doesn't promise anyone luxury and fantasy on this sinful earth for all time...we'll have times of pleasure and times of pain...but we should be focused on relationship with God and relationship with each other. The Bible is filled with incidents of followers waiting upon God and God delivering it on timetable he set forth. It's very common to curse God when things are bad, but forget about the wonders that He's given us...things that none of us deserve. He only promises eternal happiness after we leave our bodies...if we believe Jesus died and rose again on the third day and has power to forgive sins.

Kyle: That’s the most horrible story I’ve ever heard. Why would God do such a horrible thing to a good person just to prove a point to Satan?

Gerald: Oh. Uhhh, I don’t know.

Kyle: Then I was right. Job has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making movies. There isn’t a God.

 

[SentinelMind]

Everything Job possessed was given to him by God...God provided it...whatever God can give..God can take away. His life serves as an example...I'm sure no one here suffered as much as Job...yet he could take it...and still find time to worship God in midst of tragedy. God doesn't promise easy sailing and laying on a hammock all the time for anyone. If anyone thinks being a Christian means paradise...they're sadly mistaken. Christianity is about relationship in midst of struggle...

 

[Snow Queen]

In regards to benevolent gods:

Is he able and willing to stop evil? Then why is there evil? Is he able but not willing? Then why worship him? Is he willing but not able? Then why call him God?

 

[SentinelMind]

Of course not. But a common thread in religion is that prayer = good things happening to you. Or that the good lord is watching out for you.

Terrible things happen to religious people all the time (arguably at a higher rate than atheists, since socioeconomics show us that the poorest people are the most religious), so obviously either there are no gods, they're malevolent, or they're incompetent.

Either way you slice it, that is incompatible with the teachings of the Abrahamic all powerful, all knowing, benevolent god.

After the Fall, God has never promised paradise for man as we live in sinful flesh. He promises peace in midst of struggle.

I don't know about economics of religion, but atheists tend to report high levels of depressions despite having more and "being smarter"...there are more important things ...than things...Love can conquer all. God is Love.

 

[SentinelMind]

In regards to benevolent gods:

Is he able and willing to stop evil? Then why is there evil? Is he able but not willing? Then why worship him? Is he willing but not able? Then why call him God?

If God had to strike out all evil right now...he'd have to kill each and everyone last one of us..because we are all partly evil..our flesh is wicked and will lead to destruction. Our flesh wants to drink, fornicate, steal, curse, assault....it makes sense God to strike us out like in Noah's time.

But we serve a patient God...a God that wants as many people saved as possible...that's why Jesus was sent. He provides salvation to our spirit...but not to our fleshly body. Once our spirit unites with God...our spirit is secure..but each of our bodies will die. Patience is necessary to show loyalty and unity and preserve those before Final Judgment.

 

[Thundercrack85]

After the Fall, God has never promised paradise for man as we live in sinful flesh. He promises peace in midst of struggle.

I don't know about economics of religion, but atheists tend to report high levels of depressions despite having more and "being smarter"...there are more important things ...than things...Love can conquer all. God is Love.

Well, I am tempted to say something pithy like "Ignorance is bliss", but really, yes, we are a rather somber bunch. But we do generally live much longer, eat better, etc. Though it's hard to be an atheist in backward countries, were you are forced to be religious at the threat of ostracization, or even death.

Your peace demands a very high price though. Well, the ultimate price, really.

 

[SentinelMind]

Atheism requires fixating on the broken world that is slowly tearing you down....that's why I Leave It..and choose Christ that keeps peace in midst of the storm....