The Atheism Thread - Part 5

[conan69]

religion is the enemy of all of that

Except Buddhism isnt a religion. More of a "Way", and I think youd be pretty hard pressed to find a philosophy thats more "helpful" to human beings, while theyre experiencing life on this planet.


Im a hardcore Atheist, but have no problem with Buddhism. I wouldnt lump it in with other religions.

 

[regwec]

Its ancient texts may not be 'religious' in the same sense as prophetic books, but for the most part it is practiced as a religion. Many of its adherent groups certainly enjoy charitable tax status on the basis that they are religious.

Buddhism, regardless of the pacifism or otherwise well behavedness of its subscribers, teaches a metaphysical view which is wrong. I am not 'attacking' Buddhists, but I do think it would be better if people were sufficiently educated and rational to put aside the imaginary as a method of explaining all things.

 

[Doctor Evo]

I agree with you that Buddhism is the least troublesome religion. But that karma is a *****. I mean if bad things happen to you, you probably deserved it because you did something wrong in the previous life. That's my understanding of it anyway. But it really is not as harmful as other religions. Not even close.

...is karma a Buddhist concept?

 

[Anubis]

I thought that was Hindu.

 

[The End]

Its ancient texts may not be 'religious' in the same sense as prophetic books, but for the most part it is practiced as a religion. Many of its adherent groups certainly enjoy charitable tax status on the basis that they are religious.

Buddhism, regardless of the pacifism or otherwise well behavedness of its subscribers, teaches a metaphysical view which is wrong. I am not 'attacking' Buddhists, but I do think it would be better if people were sufficiently educated and rational to put aside the imaginary as a method of explaining all things.

I don't think humanity as a whole will ever set aside magical thinking.

Pure speculation, but I'm willing to bet that as atheism rises and major religions like christianity decline, that in the coming decades we'll just see new and even stranger religions crop up.

 

[Marvolo]

Its ancient texts may not be 'religious' in the same sense as prophetic books, but for the most part it is practiced as a religion. Many of its adherent groups certainly enjoy charitable tax status on the basis that they are religious.

Buddhism, regardless of the pacifism or otherwise well behavedness of its subscribers, teaches a metaphysical view which is wrong. I am not 'attacking' Buddhists, but I do think it would be better if people were sufficiently educated and rational to put aside the imaginary as a method of explaining all things.

I get the feeling you have never actually read any buddhist texts or studied beyond a quick glance. That isn't an insult just an observation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Care to elaborate on how that "metaphysical view" is wrong? Buddhism teaches we are all connected to everything in the universe and should respect that which we are connected to.This was taught hundreds of years before scientists even knew what matter was. We are all connected to everything around us in one way or another. That is scientifically accurate. It also teaches us to perform deeds not for their desired outcome but for the simple act of doing of the task. It teaches compassion and tolerance above all and that there are many paths to enlightenment and the betterment of both you and that which is around you. If anything Buddhism is way ahead of the average human social ideas.

I just need you to be specific on which ideas you consider bad for mankind.

Also keep in mind there are 3 or 4 different schools of thought about buddhism. Some put more emphasis on higher powers while others promote isolation. Some promote social involvement. It depends on the school. There is also the Zen school which is my personal favorite. These are all bread from Siddhartha's way.

And keep in mind that the ritualized nature of buddhism today is a result of buddhism merging with local rituals and cultures. Buddhism at its core and as Siddhartha promoted it was meditative way of life. As Buddhism spread, that way of life was added to local rituals.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Except Buddhism isnt a religion. More of a "Way", and I think youd be pretty hard pressed to find a philosophy thats more "helpful" to human beings, while theyre experiencing life on this planet.

My girlfriend's a Korean Buddhist. It's a religion. I think atheists like it because it's a very peaceful religion and its extremists immolate themselves, they don't attack others. But tell someone in Korea or Burma or Thailand that their religion is just a "Way of life" (which it can be too, granted) and see the reaction.

 

[Anubis]

What about that rouge buddhist extremest group that dumped serin gas in the Tokyo subway system?

 

[Doctor Evo]

My girlfriend's a Korean Buddhist. It's a religion. I think atheists like it because it's a very peaceful religion and its extremists immolate themselves, they don't attack others. But tell someone in Korea or Burma or Thailand that their religion is just a "Way of life" (which it can be too, granted) and see the reaction.

It's also possible to be an atheist and a Buddhist simultaneously.

 

[Marvolo]

My girlfriend's a Korean Buddhist. It's a religion. I think atheists like it because it's a very peaceful religion and its extremists immolate themselves, they don't attack others. But tell someone in Korea or Burma or Thailand that their religion is just a "Way of life" (which it can be too, granted) and see the reaction.

It may be a religion to them. The same as zen buddhism is a religion in Japan. However different schools of buddhism have different ideas about what buddhism is. When you get into these different schools it does become religion. If you stick with only the source, Siddhartha and what he actually taught, it is a way of lofe first and foremost. I tend to stick with the source. If I want to know Siddhartha's teachings I read his words. The koreans and these others may have turned it into a religion, but that was never its purpose. No deity factors into it and ritual is left by the wayside. Holy books do not factor either. In Buddhism you don't hold onto these things. You move beyond them. That isn't a religion. Religion is about ritual and tradition. So I guess you could say that the different schools of buddhism are a religion, but what Siddhartha taught was a way of life.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

What about that rouge buddhist extremest group that dumped serin gas in the Tokyo subway system?

That guy was not a Buddhist. He was a cult-member for some David Koresh like cult. In fact the leader proclaimed himself to be a Christ-like figure like Manson did. C'mon man, verify what you say at least. If you want to talk about rogue Buddhists, cite the extremist in Myanmar/Burma who is advocating the death of Muslims. There I wrote your post for you.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

It's also possible to be an atheist and a Buddhist simultaneously.

Maybe in the same sense that you can culturally be Jewish and be an atheist, which I am. But if you're an atheist, you don't believe in Buddha, so.....

 

[Anubis]

Eh, I thought they said he was a crazy buddhist cult leader. Oh well, I withdraw my statement.

 

[Marvolo]

Maybe in the same sense that you can culturally be Jewish and be an atheist, which I am. But if you're an atheist, you don't believe in Buddha, so.....

Uh yes you can. Buddha is not a god nor did he believe in a god and he thought prayer was useless and resulted in a slave mentality. The Buddha means "the enlightened one." It is a title that was given to Siddhartha. Siddhartha was a man, and an athiest can and should believe he existed because he did. This is another one of those misconceptions. Some schools treat the buddha like a god or avatar of a god. He wasn't and Siddhartha made it clear he wasn't to be regarded as a deity. He was a teacher and wanted to set an example to be followed for the betterment of people. Some respect and revere him for what he did and accomplished but buddhism doesn't require the worship of buddha. An athiest can be a buddhist and an athiest.

I suggest this quick read:

www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Uh yes you can. Buddha is not a god. The Buddha means "the enlightened one." It is a title that was given to Siddhartha. Siddhartha was a man, and an athiest can and should believe he existed because he did. This is another one of those misconceptions. Some schools treat the buddha like a god or avatar of a god. He wasn't and Siddhartha made it clear he wasn't to be regarded as a deity. He was a teacher and wanted to set an example to be followed for the betterment of people. Some respect and revere him for what he did and accomplished but buddhism doesn't require the worship of buddha. An athiest can be a buddhist and an athiest.

Fair enough. But the stories centering around Gautama are very fantastic, such as meditating under a tree for 49 days without food or water.

 

[Marvolo]

Fair enough. But the stories centering around Gautama are very fantastic, such as meditating under a tree for 49 days without food or water.

Things have a way of being exaggerated. Just gotta wade through that crap and find the real meat. Stories like that really aren't important to the goal that Siddhartha and all buddhists are trying to accomplish.

Its like missing the message Jesus preached on the Mount, because a person can't get past the story of him multiplying the loaves and the fish and feeding hundreds. Just ignore that stuff and hear the message.

 

[Bat-Mite]

I think the confusion arises on issues like this because Buddhism is such a flexible path. There are Christian Buddhists, Jewish Buddhists, etc. Buddhism sort of blended with Daoism and created Zen. It blended with the Tibetan Bon traditions to create Tibetan Buddhism. Wherever Buddhism has gone, it has incorporated elements of the native culture in some way. People will read the teachings of one group that might worship gods/buddhas and assume that's how all Buddhists are, but another Buddhist group may be very rationalist and strictly adhere to the core teachings of the Buddha (while seeing him only as a teacher), rejecting all superstition entirely.

 

[Marvolo]

I think the confusion arises on issues like this because Buddhism is such a flexible path. There are Christian Buddhists, Jewish Buddhists, etc. Buddhism sort of blended with Daoism and created Zen. It blended with the Tibetan Bon traditions to create Tibetan Buddhism. Wherever Buddhism has gone, it has incorporated elements of the native culture in some way. People will read the teachings of one group that might worship gods/buddhas and assume that's how all Buddhists are, but another Buddhist group may be very rationalist and strictly adhere to the core teachings of the Buddha (while seeing him only as a teacher), rejecting all superstition entirely.

^This sums it up.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

I think the confusion arises on issues like this because Buddhism is such a flexible path. There are Christian Buddhists, Jewish Buddhists, etc. Buddhism sort of blended with Daoism and created Zen. It blended with the Tibetan Bon traditions to create Tibetan Buddhism. Wherever Buddhism has gone, it has incorporated elements of the native culture in some way. People will read the teachings of one group that might worship gods/buddhas and assume that's how all Buddhists are, but another Buddhist group may be very rationalist and strictly adhere to the core teachings of the Buddha (while seeing him only as a teacher), rejecting all superstition entirely.

I think that is one of the main reasons it's viewed as such a great religion/way of life by many different cultures(and Atheists). It's all inclusive and does not discriminate against anyone, really.

 

[jmc]

I don't think humanity as a whole will ever set aside magical thinking.

Pure speculation, but I'm willing to bet that as atheism rises and major religions like christianity decline, that in the coming decades we'll just see new and even stranger religions crop up.

Thing about religion is that is comes about due to our understanding of the universe, as our understanding evolves people are going to be more and more likely to respond to that new understanding. I think the opposite is more likely, people are going to be less and less influenced by the prospects of a higher power and have a greater understanding of what's actually happening around them.

 

[nouan]

...is karma a Buddhist concept?

It in Buddhism and Hinduism, but the concept of Karma differs in them. And indeed I was wrong about how it works according to Buddha. Buddhism is really alright after all.

 

[regwec]

I get the feeling you have never actually read any buddhist texts or studied beyond a quick glance. That isn't an insult just an observation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It depends how much "depth" you're really expecting. I had to study Buddhism at school, along with other religious systems. I read 'Siddhartha', the Herman Hesse novel, once when on holiday. I researched and wrote an essay on syncretism in the Hellenic Buddhism of Bactria while at university, but that was almost ten years ago.

I'm not, to be honest, especially interested in imaginary belief systems. I am interested in their sociological effects, and on their influence on history and anthropology

Care to elaborate on how that "metaphysical view" is wrong? Buddhism teaches we are all connected to everything in the universe and should respect that which we are connected to.This was taught hundreds of years before scientists even knew what matter was. We are all connected to everything around us in one way or another. That is scientifically accurate. It also teaches us to perform deeds not for their desired outcome but for the simple act of doing of the task. It teaches compassion and tolerance above all and that there are many paths to enlightenment and the betterment of both you and that which is around you. If anything Buddhism is way ahead of the average human social ideas.

I just need you to be specific on which ideas you consider bad for mankind.

Also keep in mind there are 3 or 4 different schools of thought about buddhism. Some put more emphasis on higher powers while others promote isolation. Some promote social involvement. It depends on the school. There is also the Zen school which is my personal favorite. These are all bread from Siddhartha's way.

And keep in mind that the ritualized nature of buddhism today is a result of buddhism merging with local rituals and cultures. Buddhism at its core and as Siddhartha promoted it was meditative way of life. As Buddhism spread, that way of life was added to local rituals.

You seem to want to treat Buddhism as some kind of weak, anemic self-help system, that doesn't really amount to a religion at all. I can accept that is probably true of some of its forms, and indeed I think "Buddhism" as "practiced" by middle class white people is often popular for precisely this reason. But that ignores a high proportion of its global adherents, who clearly believe it to be something more.

Again, I do not have any particular vendetta against Buddhists. It is commendable that they tend to be far less bloodthirsty, narrow-minded and intolerant than Christians or Muslims. But I nevertheless think that any belief "system", that has ideas about "spirituality" or the post-death state contrary to scientific evidence, is a bad idea that should not be encouraged.

 

[Doctor Evo]

But I nevertheless think that any belief "system", that has ideas about "spirituality" or the post-death state contrary to scientific evidence, is a bad idea that should not be encouraged.

Well, it isn't contrary to scientific evidence, it is just unsupported. There exists no scientific evidence which directly refutes or invalidates the claim of an afterlife. The problem is that the claim is not testable, which is a bit different.

 

[regwec]

Yes, I know.

 

[NickNitro]

You guys should really listen to Alan Watts the greatest translator of Eastern philosophy to Western culture


[YT]_tYENNBA0cA[/YT]
[YT]uCscKuqV4Gw[/YT]
[YT]Yb-y5UG1IM[/YT]
[YT]H-GP_DXOeHU[/YT]
[YT]PP3nVcA956c[/YT]