The Atheism Thread - Part 5

[Marvolo]

Well, it isn't contrary to scientific evidence, it is just unsupported. There exists no scientific evidence which directly refutes or invalidates the claim of an afterlife. The problem is that the claim is not testable, which is a bit different.

Which is why most scientists try not to tangle with it. God isn't testable so its irrelevant in science. As long as you aren't ignoring scientific fact a belief in God or gods is ok imo.

This is why I feel some people need to believe:

The decay of belief has come about through the honest doubt, the careful and fearless thinking of highly intelligent men of science and philosophy. Moved by a zeal and reverence for facts, they have tried to see, understand, and face life as it is without wishful thinking. Yet for all that they have done to improve the conditions of life, their picture of the universe seems to leave the individual without ultimate hope. The price of their miracles in this world has been the disappearance of the world-to-come, and one is inclined to ask the old question, “What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul?” Logic, intelligence, and reason are satisfied, but the heart goes hungry. For the heart has learned to feel that we live for the future. Science may, slowly and uncertainly, give us a better future—for a few years. And then, for each of us, it will end. It will all end. However long postponed, everything composed must decompose.

Alan Watts

Some people aren't built to live without that hope. We are much more than just cold hard intellect processing the physical world around us. Others consider it a weakness, but there are correlations between belief and the brain chemistry of individuals. Not everyone is the same, and it doesn't come down to weakness or mental problems. Its much deeper and more profound than that.

The true problem with religion lies In indoctrination. An Individual should find their own path and beliefs and not have them drilled into them by adults before they can think for themselves. Belief in something greater than us and bigger than the 3% of the universe our senses can see and experience is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[regwec]

I agree to an extent- indoctrination is the more immediate threat, and I think it violates people's human rights, to an extent.

But, in a democracy, or any society that aspires to be one, I personally think there is a responsibility for each individual to educate themselves and look at the world in the most honest and thoughtful way they can. Religion is easy, and therefore seductive. It has a lazy, prepackaged answer for everything. Belief in a creator or an afterlife, in the modern era, smacks of immaturity to me. Unfortunately, it can become pervasive, allowing policy makers to legislate on wars, abortion, human rights, environmental issues etc in such a way that conforms to the fantasy stories adopted by the intellectually cowardly.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

 

[Marvolo]

I agree to an extent- indoctrination is the more immediate threat, and I think it violates people's human rights, to an extent.

But, in a democracy, or any society that aspires to be one, I personally think there is a responsibility for each individual to educate themselves and look at the world in the most honest and thoughtful way they can. Religion is easy, and therefore seductive. It has a lazy, prepackaged answer for everything. Belief in a creator or an afterlife, in the modern era, smacks of immaturity to me. Unfortunately, it can become pervasive, allowing policy makers to legislate on wars, abortion, human rights, environmental issues etc in such a way that conforms to the fantasy stories adopted by the intellectually cowardly.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

I'm educated and have a love for natural sciences and just acquiring random knowledge however I am still spiritual. There is no way to know what happens after death. Least not with our current capabilities. Heck it may never be possible. Its not that i fear what if anything comes after death. I just like to speculate and contemplate it. Its one of those hobbies of mine. Scientists aren't even sure how the mind functions. We know that we can only observe around 3% of the universe the rest being dark matter and energy that we don't have the faintest clue about. There are at least 8 dimensions according to M-theory that we will most likely never be able to test or observe. We aren't sure what's outside of our universe or even how gravity functions. Point is while I don't believe in the god of gaps or even a god of any sort really I do believe there is still ample room to keep my mind open to something larger than what we experience every day. I'm not even talking about magic or the supernatural. I'm speaking of the completely natural universe that we have yet to observe and the abilities of our minds that we have yet to tap. There is more to this universe than the minutiae we observe.

Regarding policy makers, I'm with you 100%. An individual's spirituality should never dictate the lives of others unless those others want it to. I'm getting sick of radical Christians In this country trying to tell everyone how they should live. Some of the most annoying people I've ever known. Just hen pecking at every damn thing.

 

[SV Fan]

Regarding policy makers, I'm with you 100%. An individual's spirituality should never dictate the lives of others unless those others want it to. I'm getting sick of radical Christians In this country trying to tell everyone how they should live. Some of the most annoying people I've ever known. Just hen pecking at every damn thing.

I just wish people who are out to erase the non threat of Sharia Law being used in America would add to their ban list any religion being used as a means to base policy on

 

[regwec]

If you believe in the rule of law, having more repressive alternatives available is a poor idea.

 

[The End]

Could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?

 

[Doctor Evo]

Could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?

You're assuming gnosticism.

 

[Piper Maru]

Dust That Sings
[YT]9nnwvoH-4XI[/YT]

 

[The End]

You're assuming gnosticism.

How do you know?

 

[zeroapoc]

There are at least 8 dimensions according to M-theory that we will most likely never be able to test or observe.

I consider belief in M-theory to basically be a type of faith itself. There's about as much proof as any religion.

 

[regwec]

Except nobody pretends it is other than a theory, so "faith" and "belief" are not really appropriate as such.

 

[zeroapoc]

There are some that are pretty overboard with their belief in the theory, but I concede your point.

 

[Piper Maru]

Through These Godless Eyes
[YT]Txp8LhL56rU[/YT]

 

[Doctor Evo]

How do you know?

Could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?

...do you know what gnosticism is?

 

[The End]

I'm asking YOU how do you justify knowledge. Any knowledge claim at all.

 

[The End]

Basically I'm emulating a style of apologetics called presuppositional apologetics, I wanted to test people here to see how they'd respond to it. It's a pretty awful form of argumentation and I will now cease my experiment. If you want to see what the hell I'm talking about, watch some clips of Sye Ten Bruggencate. He claims that god is the foundation of all knowledge, even for atheists, and that all atheists really know that god exists.

 

[The End]

[YT]TXqw9FARjVk[/YT]

 

[Marvolo]

I consider belief in M-theory to basically be a type of faith itself. There's about as much proof as any religion.

The math is sound on M-theory. That's the thing about math based sciences. Actually observing these other dimensions while it would be nice isn't entirely necessary, because the math is sound.

I've yet to find any religion that is backed by math.

 

[Hotwire]

Well, this is interesting.

Religious people are less intelligent than atheists, study finds

 

[regwec]

I find it disheartening that 42% of American "scientists" had no doubts over the existence of God.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Not really. It's no coincidence that the vast majority of the smartest people on the planet are atheists. Or at least, the top scientists.

Though I do think there should be two categories of atheists, people who simply have no religion (which could simply be the result of not being indoctrinated), and those who knowingly reject religion.

It takes a lot of thinking to become an atheist, in a religious society.

 

[zeroapoc]

The math is sound on M-theory. That's the thing about math based sciences. Actually observing these other dimensions while it would be nice isn't entirely necessary, because the math is sound.

I've yet to find any religion that is backed by math.

I'm sorry but it's going to take more than elegant equations for me to buy in 100%. Observation and detection is totally necessary to bring me to that point.

Otherwise it's just "faith" in the math. Exactly why I used that term earlier. The fact the math is sound, or at least workable, doesn't mean the theory is reality. You're choosing to believe it to be so, which yes, is a leap of faith. Religion isn't the only area where this thought process can apply. It can most certainly be found in the sciences. Particularly when statements are used such as "it doesn't have to be observed".

We have absolutely no tangible proof of higher dimensions. Without this proof stating their existence as fact is simply belief.

We ask this proof of theists when they talk of God. I see no reason why proponents of M-Theory should not be held to the same standard. The fact it's a "math based science" does not exclude it from the burden of evidence.

 

[zeroapoc]

Well, this is interesting.

Religious people are less intelligent than atheists, study finds

That's common knowledge. Most people who were born into a religious setting but became atheists did so through rational thought from a sharp mind.

 

[enterthemadness]

I find this interesting and am not really shocked by it.

 

[Doctor Evo]

I find it disheartening that 42% of American "scientists" had no doubts over the existence of God.

I happen to know more than a couple of religious scientists personally. In fact, they're some of the most devoutly Christian people I've ever met. There's nothing wrong with methodological naturalism, and there has been no indication whatsoever that their beliefs affect their ability to do good science. I say this as both a scientist and what some would describe as a staunch atheist.