The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

[Project862006]

bay has made more horrible films than nolan has made films

 

[kedrell]

I'm rather indifferent to Bay.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I like Michael Bay, I don't get the hate. It seems like a "well blah blah blah it's not Oscar bait, it's not art, la-di-da". They're fun, cool, slick movies.

TDKR is a fun, cool, slick movie. People said it was depressing? I remember reading that from critics. Couldn't disagree more. TDKR was definitely fun, and it kind of clipped along at a pace where it lacked the depth of TDK which, in my opinion, is far and away more deep and serious.

I mean Bane acts like a straight up WWE wrestler, which totally plays to his character but is kind of unintentionally hilarious. "Power to the peee-puullll". "Make sure there is a body" (then cuts to 'how the f*** did John Blake find him" scene). The underground lairs. It's all hokey fun, much moreso than his previous outings.

Take, for example, the stock transfer which Wayne. That was clearly fraud. I mean what did they think Bane was doing at the stock exchange? He pretty much announced it. In the last movie they went through all those scenes with Dent, Gordon and Rachel, and they always seemed to add legitimacy to everything that went on. Not here. In this movie it's swept under the rug just so Bruce Wayne can be poor, and sell his machine, so it's like some macguffin. Doesn't even have any real consequences either. The cave still had power even though the house didn't. Apparently all his caves were still operational. He could get back from India no problem. Lived in a mansion the whole time. Was apparently able to divide up some pretty big assets at the end, and I feel like they would've proven the fraud by that point.

In the older TDK you had a lot of side characters that meant a lot more and provided more emotional resonance.

In TDKR you had a ton of bodies and no emotional resonance whatsoever.

[BLACKOUT]
Avengers even managed to make an emotional death and make it intriguing towards the end. That was a far greater emotional connection than I had to Foley? Miranda Tate? The Mayor? Who gave a sh**? Apparently no one in the movie. Foley's is almost comical.
[/BLACKOUT]

The good point of TDKR is the Rocky IV kind of storyline you get with Bruce Wayne. Broken, trains, is broken again, comes back and wins. That's really cool. The problem is so much was going on I didn't care about that seemed redundant or meaningless.

Selina Kyle could've been given six or seven more scenes in that movie and that would've been awesome.

That's very Michael Bay. Big movie that spreads itself thin and uses explosions to make you forget about a plot hole and move on to the next scene. That's a lot of TDKR. A lot going on, most of it fun enough to be entertaining, with a better main story though.

People act like Michael Bay never does anything more. Really? Ever watched The Rock? About how the Government doesn't inform the families of dead soldiers on certain secret missions. That was a huge message. Most of his films harp on something more than what's going on in the film. The problem with Michael Bay, in my opinion, is his sense of "humor". Bad Boys was better at it, but Transformers didn't need riffs from The Hangover. Michael Bay is a big name director, and will go down as one of those directors most people remember.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Honestly, after reading it was largely unscripted, I'd really have to say Iron Man may be better than all of them. It's one superhero film that, to me, gets better every time I watch it.

Perhaps Avengers will be the same.

I saw TDKR twice, and it slightly improved my opinion. Just because it reinforced to me that despite it's faults it's very fun, but it's still very dizzying how it moves about from thing to thing. Kind of feels like a tilt-a-whirl.

It's still clearly 100 times better than The Amazing Spider-Man.

 

[Big Lob]

Avengers is a good popcorn film, but not much else. I'm still waiting for Marvel films to push their films to the next level. The first half of Iron Man comes the closest, which is a shame because its was the first.

TDKR is a "Return of the Jedi" type film, a well made ending to a great trilogy.

 

[Donnie Darko]

I love Nolan's Batman trilogy, but to say Marvel hasn't "pushed it" is wrong, in my opinion. Just the fact that they invested hundreds of millions of dollars to make five movies setting up Avengers, with the off-chance that it all paid off, was "pushing it to the next level." I thought The Dark Knight Rises was a very good movie, but I think people are pretending that it was way deeper than it actually was. The main villain throughout the movie basically does the same thing Shredder did in the first TMNT movie, collecting wayward kids at his secret hideout. The only difference was he didn't give them skateboards and cigarettes, and there was no Sam Rockwell hanging around.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I like Michael Bay, I don't get the hate.

Don't get it or don't like the hate? Because it's pretty easy to understand the hate. He tends to ruin his own movies by putting in too much juvenile humor that tends to cater to the lowest common denominator, as you mentioned. The Transformers movies are glaring examples, though it's much worse in the last two than the first Transformers movies.

Avengers is a good popcorn film, but not much else. I'm still waiting for Marvel films to push their films to the next level. The first half of Iron Man comes the closest, which is a shame because its was the first.

TDKR is a "Return of the Jedi" type film, a well made ending to a great trilogy.

Why do they have to? People enjoy their comic book feel movies and they do well at the box office. They have don't have to transcend the genre their in. Some of the people at Marvel made it very clear. The Avengers was a great fun movie that doesn't deserve to be negated because it didn't try to transcend the genre.

Comparing the The Dark Knight Rises and the Avengers is literally like comparing apples and oranges. Both are in the same group (Fruits to superhero movies) but they're different fruits, as in they represent different subgenres and tones of the Superhero genre.

 

[Lord]

I like Michael Bay, I don't get the hate. It seems like a "well blah blah blah it's not Oscar bait, it's not art, la-di-da". They're fun, cool, slick movies.

TDKR is a fun, cool, slick movie. People said it was depressing? I remember reading that from critics. Couldn't disagree more. TDKR was definitely fun, and it kind of clipped along at a pace where it lacked the depth of TDK which, in my opinion, is far and away more deep and serious.

I mean Bane acts like a straight up WWE wrestler, which totally plays to his character but is kind of unintentionally hilarious. "Power to the peee-puullll". "Make sure there is a body" (then cuts to 'how the f*** did John Blake find him" scene). The underground lairs. It's all hokey fun, much moreso than his previous outings.

Take, for example, the stock transfer which Wayne. That was clearly fraud. I mean what did they think Bane was doing at the stock exchange? He pretty much announced it. In the last movie they went through all those scenes with Dent, Gordon and Rachel, and they always seemed to add legitimacy to everything that went on. Not here. In this movie it's swept under the rug just so Bruce Wayne can be poor, and sell his machine, so it's like some macguffin. Doesn't even have any real consequences either. The cave still had power even though the house didn't. Apparently all his caves were still operational. He could get back from India no problem. Lived in a mansion the whole time. Was apparently able to divide up some pretty big assets at the end, and I feel like they would've proven the fraud by that point.

In the older TDK you had a lot of side characters that meant a lot more and provided more emotional resonance.

In TDKR you had a ton of bodies and no emotional resonance whatsoever.

[BLACKOUT]
Avengers even managed to make an emotional death and make it intriguing towards the end. That was a far greater emotional connection than I had to Foley? Miranda Tate? The Mayor? Who gave a sh**? Apparently no one in the movie. Foley's is almost comical.
[/BLACKOUT]

The good point of TDKR is the Rocky IV kind of storyline you get with Bruce Wayne. Broken, trains, is broken again, comes back and wins. That's really cool. The problem is so much was going on I didn't care about that seemed redundant or meaningless.

Selina Kyle could've been given six or seven more scenes in that movie and that would've been awesome.

That's very Michael Bay. Big movie that spreads itself thin and uses explosions to make you forget about a plot hole and move on to the next scene. That's a lot of TDKR. A lot going on, most of it fun enough to be entertaining, with a better main story though.

People act like Michael Bay never does anything more. Really? Ever watched The Rock? About how the Government doesn't inform the families of dead soldiers on certain secret missions. That was a huge message. Most of his films harp on something more than what's going on in the film. The problem with Michael Bay, in my opinion, is his sense of "humor". Bad Boys was better at it, but Transformers didn't need riffs from The Hangover. Michael Bay is a big name director, and will go down as one of those directors most people remember.

Very well said, Nolan actually said he a fan of Bay's work. The only michael bay movie i think is complete trash is Transformers 2.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Comparing the The Dark Knight Rises and the Avengers is literally like comparing apples and oranges. Both are in the same group (Fruits to superhero movies) but they're different fruits, as in they represent different subgenres and tones of the Superhero genre.

This is very similar to what I would say to people when Avengers came out. I said I loved it, and I think it was my new favorite comic book movie (before, it had been this three-way dance between Batman Begins, the Dark Knight, and Iron Man). People were like "is it REALLY better than The Dark Knight, though? I would tell them that it's hard to really compare them, even though they are both superhero movies. It's like comparing Game of Thrones to Spartacus. Sometimes I want the more methodical storytelling that Game of Thrones delivers, but sometimes I just want the instant gratification of battles and orgies every five minutes that I get in Spartacus.

 

[Dragon_316ca]

 

[American_Hobo]

Box office: The Avengers > Dark Knight Rises.

No excuses needed why Dark Knight Rises did not/will not earn much money as Avengers. Simple conclusion is that Avengers earned more money than Dark Knight Rises.
As for people saying that Avengers had more advantage by having mutiple superheroes...well just wait until Justice League movie and we can compare Avengers and Justice League then.

 

[Lord]

TDKR easily. Easily.

Other than Ledger, the movie was a full of win, and the legit win, not just cool action. And audiences saw that. And I don't think general audiences are so orgasmic about having 12 heroes in one movie as fans are. But I think Avengers will make more or less what any Marvel movie makes.

Anyways, this thread MUST be open until both movies are out so winners can mock at losers to no end.

Agreed

Soyy for bumping but after getting so much cynicism for my coments i want to get my revenge since 2012 is finally over t:

Expecially when people considered these comments realistic:

We have to consider the box office argument rationally.

For the singular Marvel movies, the highest grossing is IM1, with $318 million. IM2 is not far behind with $312 million. So the IM movies for all intents and purposes, shared the same audience although losing a small percentage. Thor and Cap both earned less than $200 million, and TIH earned less than $150 million. It's not too ridiculous to assume that those movies basically share the same audience, because Marvel wants them all in the same universe. It's the same reason why all the Harry Potter movies consistently made around $300 million after the first one - the same audience showed up to each one. Same with Twilight.

TDK earned $533 million, more than twice of what BB grossed. Obviously the audience expanded majorly for that, although obviously we won't have the combined Heath-Ledger-playing-the-Joker-dying effect this time around. But what percentage of the audience do you think TDKR will lose because of that? 10%, which would be $480 million? 20%, for $426 million? 30%, for $373 million? 40%, finally on par with IM1 with $319 million?

Which is honestly more likely - that Avengers will suddenly gain the audience of IM AND Thor or Cap or Hulk (assuming that they are completely different audiences, which of course you can't), or that TDKR will lose 40% of the audience from TDK?

I know what I'm betting on.

I personally think that TDKR is going to kill the superhero genre. This movie, based on a 2-min trailer, suggests that Nolan is taking it in places no other superhero movie would ever have the balls to take it. Just like TDK in 2008, it's transcending the genre, not just combining five colorful superhero characters with colorful costumes.

Once again, we're heading into adult territory with TDKR, and it's going to personify complex themes (again) like class warfare, the political system, social class, terrorism. Loki is a whiny brother from another dimension who isn't happy about something.

Another thing to remember: WB gave Nolan carte blanche on this, just like Inception. Remember how Inception turned out? Now look at Marvel. A giant, mega-million, tie-in toy manufactured, teenager-family-friendly McDonald's ad where Band-Aids and shampoo bottles have Iron Man's head as the twisty cap.

Bane's mask looks like it's welded to his flesh and he blows up football stadiums and slaughters little boys who are singing the national anthem. Freakin' Alfred is crying in the trailer. Bruce is walking with a goddamn cane. This is going to be dark. Do you think Joss Whedon has free reign on The Avengers, or do you think there's a lot of studio interference in the interest of Burger King Whoppers? Audiences can tell when something feels manufactured and not genuine. They could tell on TDK and Inception. Nolan doesn't dick around, he doesn't want 3D, he wants minimal CGI, he wants to set the movie 8 years after the previous one.

Audience-wise, it's just overall obvious to me: TDKR is the Box Office Champ in 2012.

Yet mine were considered too fantastic

Lets see, the Dark Knight's big success was mostly because of of Heath Ledger's death, it would still be one of the 10 most successful movies at the box office that year, maybe even top 1 like it ended being, but Heath Ledger's death atracted a lot more of interest.

With The Dark Knight Rises you don't have the Joker, Batman's name will obviously bring tons of money but not as much as Heath Ledger, however, with the help of TDK and Inception Nolan's name has groun in the public's mind, the movie will surelly make much money but not as much as The Avengers, and i'll tell you why.

First, Joss Whedon is going to direct this so the movie won't lack character development and good dialogue, the story also seems to be focused, Joss Whedon has proven that he can appeal to both, the masculine and the feminine public.

Then you also have to consider that Whedon has a strong fan base, i noticed that a lot of Buffy fans for example began to watch his other shows just because they had his name, many that aren't really into the Marvel Cinematic Universe thing got interested too.

Well, the director alone will bring some good public, of course it won't bring as much as Nolan's name does, and Serenity proved that, yet both movies have pedigree and an extablished fan base, that has to count for something right?

Then what will trully make Avengers a smach hit, it's a crossover of 4 extablished franchises, Captain america and Thor didn't have sequels yet but they're pratically franchises by their oun as there are in least 2 sequels prepared for each one, both have video game adaptations and both are enjoying a run in comic books for some years already. I heard many saying that all these films, Iron Man, Thor, etc have the same audience, not exactly, sure, many that saw the other movies return because they're all superhero film and some members of the audience know the movies are conected.

I don't know if anybody noticed but Thor got the attention of a lot of women, even more than Iron Man, maybe it was the romance, some like Loki, but what matters is that same public came back for Captain America, and liked it too, for the exact same reasons, well, this time there was not Loki, but there was still romance.

And as a matter of fact not everybody knows these movies were connected, not every body knew there were post-credits scenes, that's why some didn't return for for the other movies, because they tought that was just another superhero movie, now they see the Avengers trailer and see their characters there, and so they will want to see it.

Fan girls of Twilight also seem to like this, with their favourite romance movies gone they will simply switch to superhero movies that have those bits of romance like Thor and Cap, how do i know this? Because i've seen this happen, Twilight saga may be terrible movies but they are still mammoths at the box office, imagine that together with all the comic book fans that are going to want to watch this event.

Not to mention that The Avengers trailer was the most downloaded from iTunes of all time, and the trailer wasn't even that special, i think TDKR trailer was more emotional, yet this only proves the level of Hype there is for The Avengers.

The Avengers may be even bigger than Titanic, and if really, really lucky, it may even surpass Avatar, i only see The Dark knight surpassing Transformers 3 at most, i don't think it can even reach Harry Potter and the Deadly Hallows Part II, a movie whose level of hype was much bigger

 

[Anno_Domini]

Well, we know which film made the most money, but that didn't mean it was the better of the two

 

[Lord]

This was allways a box-office fight to begin with t:

As a film i prefered The Dark knight Rises

 

[Snow Queen]

Easily TDKR. The story, characters, dialogue (with a few exceptions), acting, cinematography, fight choreography and set design were all on a different level than The Avengers. TA was great the first time, good the second and after that it's just dull and feels very generic. TDKR has me invested on every viewing from Gordon's speech to the cafe.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Avengers is not ashamed of being a comic book movie.

That's the reason the public ate it up. It perfectly captured what makes comic books cool and rewarding for us geeks. The public had no clue before Avengers.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Another vote for TDKR... It has many flaws but it's still the best superhero movie of 2012.

 

[kedrell]

This was allways a box-office fight to begin with t:

As a film i prefered The Dark knight Rises

Uh, there really was no fight. Just a complete @$$kicking of TDKR(and TDK) by TA.

Opinions on quality are one thing and everyone is entitled to theirs on the subject be they ones who think TDKR was better or like me who think the last 2 Batman movies suck completely and TA is in the top 5 superhero films ever made.

But box office #'s are cold hard facts.

 

[kedrell]

Well, we know which film made the most money, but that didn't mean it was the better of the two

I use that same logic against TDK all the time.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Uh, there really was no fight. Just a complete @$$kicking of TDKR(and TDK) by TA.

I think ''complete'' is taking it a bit far...

They both made over a billion. The Avengers has a few extra brownie points to get that little extra.

 

[kedrell]

I've never bought the 3-D excuse. At the end of the day, the GA was willing to shell out X-amount of $ to see a movie. If they didn't want to pay the extra $ then they wouldn't have. Clearly they did. If it had been only in 2-D and thus cheaper per ticket, who's to say for sure that extra amount the GA saved would not simply have been turned into increased viewings to make up the difference? And it was in both formats ANYWAY. People had a choice and they chose to spend what they did. End of story.

 

[James]

Easily TDKR. The story, characters, dialogue (with a few exceptions), acting, cinematography, fight choreography and set design were all on a different level than The Avengers. TA was great the first time, good the second and after that it's just dull and feels very generic. TDKR has me invested on every viewing from Gordon's speech to the cafe.

I agree, they were on different levels. Avengers was far superior

 

[Anno_Domini]

But box office #'s are cold hard facts.

Do you find Transformers: Dark of the Moon a great film or think Spider-Man 3 is the best Spidey film because of the "cold hard facts"? Lol.

 

[Anno_Domini]

I agree, they were on different levels. Avengers was far superior

 

[Snow Queen]

I agree, they were on different levels. Avengers was far superior

Context is everything. For example, right after I say that Avengers after a few viewings is generic and dull. It comes off like a studio product and not much else.