The Batman General News & Discussion Thread - Part 2

[Blade Hoarder]

Honestly, it's just awesome that Batman has been able to have numerous adaptions that have something for everybody. There's not a single superhero that has had more of a diverse lineup of interpretations.

Um Spidey? He even had an experimental 3D animated movie.

 

[BatsAndNights]

One of these days we'll get a Batman movie from a director that's actually a huge fan. I love the Batman but in context this makes sense. Seems like it was made by someone who liked the movies alright and knew batman through cultural osmosis less than his graphic novel roots.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Reeve's isn't a true fan or whatever or calling him a hack but I'd be lying if I said yet another grounded realistic take after Nolan leaves me a bit cold. And next to this, Nolan's take is comic booky by comparison which is something I never thought possible.

I hope with the next reboot we can get a full embrace of the Batman mythology. So we don't have to yet another "how does X villain work in this universe?" "I feel this X is too unrealistic for this take" discourse. I'm looking at you Mr. Freeze. Something that has verisimilitude and takes it seriously and isn't MCUized but where we can see manbat or a mr freeze with a cryo gun and dome helmet or an iceberg lounge that's the big ice and glass structure or where say nightwing or batgirl could pop up for a scene or two and it's not this huge thing but they're just supporting characters in Batman's world like the comics. You guys know what I'm saying? Something like Arkham and I could die happy. To me, that is the only direction for the next reboot.

Name me one other Batman director who's read Ego

 

[WatchProtect]

I understand the sentiment but there's certainly more to being a fan than JUST reading comics, reading comics helps for sure but watching through animation and live action, cartoons, and movies also is enough to make a fan.

This next part is just my opinion so I understand disagreement but tbh, if a director had never even heard of the character they were adapting as long as along the way during production and writing they atleast glance and use certain comics as reference that's enough for me. I don't really need them to be lifelong comic fans.

 

[emc5466]

This is a pretty good deep dive podcast with Reeves. It's a screenwriting podcast so the focus is on the script and writing process, but it touches on a bit of everything. A few interesting little nuggets of info here. I'll put in spoiler tags in case anyone wants to just listen clean.

Spoiler

-Reeves wrote the first act himself. Because of how slow his process takes, he was worried that he would slow down too much in the second act because of how detailed the plot needed to be. He had the broad strokes of it, but Peter Craig was brought in to help him flesh it out and move the process along faster because he was worried the second act would really slow him down because of all the detailed detective stuff. He speaks highly of Peter but they have very different ways of working. He thinks he probably drove Craig nuts, haha.

-Mattson Tomlin was brought into help with the third act, which was even more of a blank slate than the second act. Reeves was a producer on Tomlin's Mother/Android film and felt a connection to his work on that. He approached him about coming on board the project not initially realizing that Mattson was a huge Batman fan.

-Interestingly, he also did not realize that Jeph Loeb, his former teacher, had written The Long Halloween and such important comics until he actually sat down to start deep researching for this movie. He says he didn't come to the character through the comics, but when it came time to the write movie he wanted to read everything he could get his hands on. I think this mythbusts the idea that he's been a lifelong comic book reader, which I think some have been incorrectly asserting. He was a fan through the TV series and films.

-The Riddler's "I just ordered a slice of some pumpkin pie" line is a reference to the Golden State Killer (which btw, I'll Be Gone in the Dark-- great book and great HBO doc if you're into true crime.)

All in all definitely an enjoyable listen.

I don’t think Zaslav is going to be as patient with the development of the script as the prior WB regime.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Wait, Matt Reeves wrote the first act? No wonder it’s the best part of the movie. Imagine if he wrote the rest of it. Maybe it wouldn’t be amateur hour Se7en.

 

[BatLobster]

Wait, Matt Reeves wrote the first act? No wonder it’s the best part of the movie. Imagine if he wrote the rest of it. Maybe it wouldn’t be amateur hour Se7en.

In the podcast, he talks about how he has an unconventional way of collaborating where he literally has to be in the same room as the pages are being written. Rather than swapping pages and going back and forth with rewrites, he won't move on until he feels each scene is truly there. Based on what Reeves had to say about how it went, it sounded like like Peter Craig was a bit uncomfortable and frustrated with working that way.

The way I took it, the collaborators were mostly there for moral support and to bounce ideas off to help speed the process, but for better or worse that entire script has Reeves' fingerprints all over it. Generally speaking, Act 1 is usually the easiest part of a screenplay to write too. It's Act 2 where a lot of screenplays flounder.

 

[emc5466]

I've said this before in the Batman Forever thread, but after rewatching the film some times ago, I really think it's the blueprint of what Marvel Studio has been doing for most of its run (at least from what I've seen from it). Dynamic family entertainment, colorful characters, a little drama here, some humor there... While this is not what I specifically look for in a Batman movie nowaday, when it came out back then, I was right in the target audience and absolutely loved it.

Nostalgia aside, I still have a fondness for this film. And even though we knew WB wanted to take the franchise in a more commercial direction after Burton's take, I still think there's a genuine sincerity and vision behind this film.
There was certainly a lot of work behind the visuals, the soundtrack was very memorable, and to me, the plot was actually quite visionary. I mean, people being lobotomized by a home device that broadcasts all sorts of programs while secretly stealing their personal information... Sound familiar?

Completely agree, only I would add that Joel Schumacher was much more talented than most Marvel directors. He was a great shooter.

 

[shauner111]

I don’t think it’s going to take Reeves as long since his issues had to do with figuring out the plotting in the second act, as it related to the riddles, the family history of corruption and this serial killer’s beef with these political pillars of Gotham. Obviously there will be new challenges in the next script but i doubt he has to deal with cracking riddles or getting the history of the city down. Matt took 3 months to write the first 30 pages. Yes he works slow, but again, he was writing the very first Batman and spent a lot of time trying to find the right tone in that first detective scene etc. So I just don’t see The Batman 2 taking a year and a half to write again. Probably a year tops. Summer to summer would be my guess. Hell, it could be done earlier. And I’m sure he’ll ask Tomlin to help him out again. They worked together for 8 weeks on the third act, while the second act (with Peter Craig took triple that amount of time if I remember correctly). It also sounded like there were more gaps in between? Probably some rewriting due to the DCEU situation?

I’m just super curious about which comics he’s going to pull from. Right now No Man’s Land seems like one of the no brainers. Would Clayface be sent to Arkham next year? Or is he a major player in Reeves’ sequel too? What about Rupert Thorne? Is Selina coming back for the third act or earlier? Does Bruce meet somebody new that he can be linked with romantically? If so, the stories that feature Thorne could spark some ideas. Same with No Man’s Land...surely he’d stumble onto a nice selection of rogues in that story that aren’t too fantastical that he can use..

 

[BatsAndNights]

I understand the sentiment but there's certainly more to being a fan than JUST reading comics, reading comics helps for sure but watching through animation and live action, cartoons, and movies also is enough to make a fan.

This next part is just my opinion so I understand disagreement but tbh, if a director had never even heard of the character they were adapting as long as along the way during production and writing they atleast glance and use certain comics as reference that's enough for me. I don't really need them to be lifelong comic fans.

Oh no, I do agree and while live action, cartoons and movies do obviously make you a fan, the comics are still by and large the best place to go for a "true" understanding of who the character is. Do you have to read the comics to be a fan? No, of course not. But when Matt's reading Batman comics which (prior to him mentioning their inspiration) were frankly obscure outside of the comic community and are regarded as some of the best ever written, I don't get how you can't call Matt a massive fan of Batman

If you wanna prefer another interpretation of the character, that's obviously fine. There's nothing wrong with that and it's a valid preference. But just because it doesn't match your preference doesn't mean Matt's not a massive Batman fan nor does it mean this is an "invalid" take

Wait, Matt Reeves wrote the first act? No wonder it’s the best part of the movie. Imagine if he wrote the rest of it. Maybe it wouldn’t be amateur hour Se7en.

I mean last I recalled, the only key plot details this shares with Se7en is Riddler turning himself in and arguably the main message at the end of the world being worth fighting for. I don't remember John Doe flooding the city or David Mills becoming a symbol of hope upon being confronted with the cycle of violence he's been perpetuating.

 

[shauner111]

People see rain and a twerp villain turning themselves in and now The Batman is “Seven lite”.

 

[BatLobster]

My biggest question with the sequel is, how will the story challenge Bruce/Batman now that he's arrived at a place of understanding his role in Gotham and being a symbol of hope? What's the best way to test that? Without repeating TDK of course. I think starting there is how to start figuring out the place the story needs to go, rather than just trying to *insert villain here*.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I don’t think it’s going to take Reeves as long since his issues had to do with figuring out the plotting in the second act, as it related to the riddles, the family history of corruption and this serial killer’s beef with these political pillars of Gotham. Obviously there will be new challenges in the next script but i doubt he has to deal with cracking riddles or getting the history of the city down. Matt took 3 months to write the first 30 pages. Yes he works slow, but again, he was writing the very first Batman and spent a lot of time trying to find the right tone in that first detective scene etc. So I just don’t see The Batman 2 taking a year and a half to write again. Probably a year tops. Summer to summer would be my guess. Hell, it could be done earlier. And I’m sure he’ll ask Tomlin to help him out again. They worked together for 8 weeks on the third act, while the second act (with Peter Craig took triple that amount of time if I remember correctly). It also sounded like there were more gaps in between? Probably some rewriting due to the DCEU situation?

I’m just super curious about which comics he’s going to pull from. Right now No Man’s Land seems like one of the no brainers. Would Clayface be sent to Arkham next year? Or is he a major player in Reeves’ sequel too? What about Rupert Thorne? Is Selina coming back for the third act or earlier? Does Bruce meet somebody new that he can be linked with romantically? If so, the stories that feature Thorne could spark some ideas. Same with No Man’s Land...surely he’d stumble onto a nice selection of rogues in that story that aren’t too fantastical that he can use..

So I've not listened to the audio commentary and I'm not sure if Reeves has said anything about this, but I'm not convinced that the sequel will be some kind of No Man's Land story. The events of Cataclysm basically sent Gotham back to the Stone Age That's not what happens in this movie. The city is flooded but the way the movie ends makes it seem like Gotham will be able to power through it and continue to function and move on in reasonable time. It doesn't seem "that bad" or that society will collapse like in NML. I feel that Reeves will pull a Nolan and there will be a time jump, maybe 6 months or a whole year, and that will make Selina's return a more realistic proposal than her returning to Gotham in it's current state. She'll probably return to a new Gotham with a new power dynamic. A time jump will also allow this Batman to get closer to Pattinson's actual age

 

[BatLobster]

It's tricky. Ending the movie with stuff like the national guard has been called in, and half the city is under water. Might be tricky to completely backpedal that entirely with a time jump. TDK was able to shift focus from the Narrows damage since that was an already-confined area of the city, but the flood is more of a city-wide event. Could be an opportunity to show how Wayne Enterprises has stepped it up in aiding the cleanup efforts.

Another thought though: what about the aftermath of Riddler exposing the Waynes' corruption and dirty laundry? We've been under the assumption that Bruce is going to transition into more of a public role, but the fact that Thomas has been outed as an associate of Falcone and had a reporter killed has kind of tarnished the name in the public eye and become a pretty big elephant in the room. I hope the consequences of that are addressed.

 

[shauner111]

It's tricky. Ending the movie with stuff like the national guard has been called in, and half the city is under water. Might be tricky to completely backpedal that entirely with a time jump. TDK was able to shift focus from the Narrows damage since that was an already-confined area of the city, but the flood is more of a city-wide event. Could be an opportunity to show how Wayne Enterprises has stepped it up in aiding the cleanup efforts.

Another thought though: what about the aftermath of Riddler exposing the Waynes' corruption and dirty laundry? We've been under the assumption that Bruce is going to transition into more of a public role, but the fact that Thomas has been outed as an associate of Falcone and had a reporter killed has kind of tarnished the name in the public eye and become a pretty big elephant in the room. I hope the consequences of that are addressed.

I’m sure he will be hated by many. That will be interesting. A Wayne that tries to help the city with his money and people are like yeaaaah yeaaaah b.s! Where was your money before all this? You want good press now? You’re partially responsible for all this you rich bastard. And Bruce talking to Alfred about it like goddamn i can’t win. And then he pushes through. Instead of the public going weak in the knees at the sight of Bruce Wayne, while he’s put on the show off *****e attitude...we’ll have a bit of a flip flop maybe? Should be interesting to see Bruce tackle it. And I bet there’s a lot of awkward humour that comes from him to trying to adapt socially.

 

[shauner111]

So I've not listened to the audio commentary and I'm not sure if Reeves has said anything about this, but I'm not convinced that the sequel will be some kind of No Man's Land story. The events of Cataclysm basically sent Gotham back to the Stone Age That's not what happens in this movie. The city is flooded but the way the movie ends makes it seem like Gotham will be able to power through it and continue to function and move on in reasonable time. It doesn't seem "that bad" or that society will collapse like in NML. I feel that Reeves will pull a Nolan and there will be a time jump, maybe 6 months or a whole year, and that will make Selina's return a more realistic proposal than her returning to Gotham in it's current state. She'll probably return to a new Gotham with a new power dynamic. A time jump will also allow this Batman to get closer to Pattinson's actual age

Nah, the movie ended with Gotham looking like half a wasteland. The bridges may not be blown up but nobody’s traveling to visit this city for a while. National Guard is there. Some parts of the city will be like a ghost town. Some parts of the city overcrowded. Looters. Crazies trying to control this end or that end of the city. “It’s gonna get bloody” — “..I know..” new gangs and their leaders trying to take Falcone’s spot, knowing that the Penguin stands in their way. Batman trying to stop it from escalating. Him and Gordon and the police trying to maintain law and order. Citizens inspired to help their fellow men and women. Trying their best to make it a better place while other freaks are trying to keep it as chaotic as possible. That’s the direction I see it going in.

Bruce trying to maintain his composure, trying not to use vengeance for every answer. But struggling. Powering through though by leading a better example. Maybe there’s a target on his back while this is happening and that’s where the tension comes from..

 

[I Am The Knight]

Nah, the movie ended with Gotham looking like half a wasteland. The bridges may not be blown up but nobody’s traveling to visit this city for a while. National Guard is there. Some parts of the city will be like a ghost town. Some parts of the city overcrowded. Looters. Crazies trying to control this end or that end of the city. “It’s gonna get bloody” — “..I know..” new gangs and their leaders trying to take Falcone’s spot, knowing that the Penguin stands in their way. Batman trying to stop it from escalating. Him and Gordon and the police trying to maintain law and order. Citizens inspired to help their fellow men and women. Trying their best to make it a better place while other freaks are trying to keep it as chaotic as possible. That’s the direction I see it going in.

Bruce trying to maintain his composure, trying not to use vengeance for every answer. But struggling. Powering through though by leading a better example. Maybe there’s a target on his back while this is happening and that’s where the tension comes from..

So your first paragraph is what I would like the sequel to be. But the way the movie ends gives me some "yeah this is bad but we'll be fine" vibes from the ending, with Batman chilling with Selina...There doesn't seem to be the urgency you'd expect from some major city wide crisis. Prior to the movie coming out I read some spoilers regarding the flood and I figured the movie would end in a more uncertain way than it actually does. Like if the movie had failed and we never got a sequel I wouldn't feel like the story was unresolved. There is a sense of closure.

Also, Selina's return is just throwing me off. She really has nothing to do in No Man's Land-y Gotham at this point. She has resolved her personal issues and even scored some money. So I'm not sure if Reeves will actually make the movie we think he's going to make, but I'd love to be proven wrong

 

[shauner111]

So your first paragraph is what I would like the sequel to be. But the way the movie ends gives me some "yeah this is bad but we'll be fine" vibes from the ending, with Batman chilling with Selina...There doesn't seem to be the urgency you'd expect from some major city wide crisis. Prior to the movie coming out I read some spoilers regarding the flood and I figured the movie would end in a more uncertain way than it actually does. Like if the movie had failed and we never got a sequel I wouldn't feel like the story was unresolved. There is a sense of closure.

Also, Selina's return is just throwing me off. She really has nothing to do in No Man's Land-y Gotham at this point. She has resolved her personal issues and even scored some money. So I'm not sure if Reeves will actually make the movie we think he's going to make, but I'd love to be proven wrong

Hmm I didn’t get that feeling. Seems like the cemetery is on the outskirts of the city. Even Arkham is on the other side of the chaos. And yet they show the heart of the city underwater. It’s not post-apocalyptic Planet of the Apes or Mad Max but it’s bad. And people will take advantage of the situation. It’s not like ppl can just head off to work, school, go see a ball game lol.

I took the ending like Batman and Bella Real are waving the “we have to try to do better” flag. That’s where the optimism comes from. But the reality of their situation is bleaker. And Catwoman’s stance in that final scene, what she says about Gotham, is probably the most realistic case. It was a bitter sweet ending.

As for Selina coming back. Well, I don’t think anything was resolved. She lost her friend, didn’t get to kill her father, and she must still feel like Carmine owes her. Imagine skipping town after that and you hear Oz or someone else has squeezed into Falcone’s spot? Where’s his money going to? Plus others fighting for control and power. Selina might be jealous with a sense of entitlement. I think that will be the reason for her comeback. That + whatever negative stuff that may happen to her in Bludhaven. The latter is just a good way to do a spin-off and a even better excuse to drive her back to Gotham. But the former reason seems pretty sound to me.

“Even in death, you still owe me. I’m not letting you off the hook this easy”. That would be a line that I’d use to sum up her feelings once the months roll on.

Catwoman, fully formed when she returns, with a desire to control her life. Not by running away from her past (like she’s doing now) but by taking ownership of the city that f’d her over in the first place. THAT to me is a good reason. Doesn’t mean she loses her heart or stops helping the weak, or stops taking in “strays”. But more independence and a screw everyone that that steps in my way attitude. If the city is truly a free-for-all, Catwoman would likely want to control the east end and make her own rules. Which Batman may not agree with. If there is one thing that Catwoman and Penguin have in common, is that they’re both opportunists.

 

[TheSmoothKnight]

Just wanted say again that I’m glad The Batman is not part of that DCEU mess. Another allegation on Miller has come out. Sadly, that movie is looking DOA with all of the craziness surrounding it because of Miller. I feel bad for the director, Keaton and Affleck. David Zaslav is probably going to reboot DCEU again lol

 

[Kane52630]

David Zaslav should be looking a way to end the DECU once and for all and move on to their new strategy of just making interesting content that doesn't need to share a universe.

 

[WatchProtect]

DC films can definitely still share a universe, not the current set of films we have but if they start with common sense instead of doing things like BVS and SS before we even get the characters introduced then it would be mostly fine.

I'm 21 so hopefully I've got a long life ahead of me to where I can see an interconnected DC universe, I wouldn't trade in The Batman for it but as someone who grew up liking DC way more than Marvel it's kinda amazing how I'm at a complete 360 right now.

 

[Sawyer]

Seems relevant considering the Long Halloween influence…
https://***********/richstarkings/status/1537500022077628417?s=21&t=4QxbRxjpwQnDIJ69I9CESg

RIP to one of the greats.

 

[Kane52630]

Damn, I was hoping it would pull through, sad to hear he's gone.

Tim Sale is easily on my top 5 of favorite comic book artists.

 

[cryptic name]

Wait, Matt Reeves wrote the first act? No wonder it’s the best part of the movie. Imagine if he wrote the rest of it. Maybe it wouldn’t be amateur hour Se7en.

The first act has the most Se7en in it...

 

[cryptic name]

Seems relevant considering the Long Halloween influence…

RIP to one of the greats.

Man, this is awful.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Terrible news. Sale was my favorite Batman artist of all time, and his art is what got me into the character.