The Batman Spoiler Discussion Thread

[dhandler01]

I just got out of seeing the film a second time. First off, it worked for me a little better knowing where things are going. However, what you’re talking about did stand out to me. You could almost remove Batman from the story and Riddlers plan would play out the same. It’s the same problem I have with Mask of the Phantasm.

If you want to really blow your mind...think about the fact that if Indiana Jones isn't in Raiders of the Lost Ark overall nothing changes

 

[Jekecy]

Got out of my 2nd viewing tonight and it feels like I'm starting to see the wave of that Joker spoiler coming in and affect expectations.

I heard from a handful of people (including some in my watching group) wondering why Joaquin wasn't in the movie, or why it was another actor playing the character.

To the general public, Phoenix is the new man in that role. And to the uninitiated, the crowd could be forgiven for thinking the two films were related.

 

[dhandler01]

I think Mask of Phantasm still works for me because it was not billed as Batman being a detective movie. Plus, the end conflict with Phantasm and Joker was a great conclusion and bittersweet.

The Batman was marketed as the movie that "will show that why Batman is the greatest detective", but instead of getting that, we get a movie which Batman was totally outsmarted. I agree that Batman's lesson in this movie is that he has to be better than vengeance, but that could have been achieved by not having Batman losing against Riddler. Even Batman vs Joker in TDK, despite Batman technically losing, was not as one sided as this.

I think it's just my growing resentment towards recent Batman media playing up Batman's failures. Even Arkham games, as awesome as they were, have Batman constantly too late to save anyone. It even ends with Batman losing...sort of.

In most detective stories the detective has lots of failures until the end. It is a process of elimination...

If the detective figured it out too fast the story dies quickly. There needs to be lots of false starts and red herrings and the detective needs to fail and fail and fail until it gets to the end point and they figure it all out.

The problem is comics and BTAS are often short form...20+ minutes or pages to tell the tale. (or a GN which might be 4-5 times that but still rather short) Even shows like House or Sherlock where all of that has to happen in 45 minutes or so plus commercials. We are conditioned to think the conclusion comes quick...when in a lot of detective tales it takes almost the entire run time for them to really figure out what is going on. They are duped by a femme fatale or a friend betrays them or some random character that showed up for 12 seconds in the first act ends up being important. In the end the hero gets the bad guy and figures it out, but it isnt something they knew early or if they did they never knew the why. The audience needs to be kept in the dark and the hero/detective is our portal into the story so they often need to be kept in the dark and guessing.

Look is Batman the Batman from the comics as a detective...no that guy has been on the job longer and is more seasoned. He is still better than almost all of the cops, Gordon...everyone but Alfred. He breaks it down over time but he isn't a Bat God, he will miss things still. Riddler's reaction to that is basically an analog for us...oh crap how did this guy miss that I thought he was smarter than that.

I mean think about how badly Joker messed with Batman in TDK...or Bane in TDKR...that is how it should be they know the plan he doesnt.

 

[Dragoncaine]

What are we thinking the more general audience reaction to this will be? My friend who very much fits that category just saw it thought it was "bad" and he said three other people he talked to said they thought it was bad too.

I can't see how anyone seeing this couldn't think it was at least decent

Who knows? Regardless of flaws, I'm just so disillusioned by the idea that every comic book movie has to be an MCU romp. The crowd I saw it with was pretty into it, some laughs and gasps along the way, a little bit of an eyeroll at the Joker scene, and solid applause at the end. The 6 other people I saw it with all loved it, and only one of them is a big Batman fan. They even went as far as saying it's the best Batman movie they've seen besides TDK.

If anyone calls this movie straight-up bad, I hate to sound dismissive, but I genuinely won't take them seriously. Especially if they follow that up with, say, praising Black Widow. Sorry to sound like a fanboy, but I was REALLY not into Marvel's 2021 besides Spidey and the first act of Shang-Chi, and I feel like they get so many passes for being (mostly) formulaic and visually uninteresting.

 

[RaimiWebSpidey]

A- Cinemascore officially. Amazing score for a 3 hour slow burn.

 

[TheVileOne]

How exactly did Batman win at the end of TDK? He literally had to make himself a villain to protect Harvey Dent who tried to kill Gordon and his son. Some victory he basically quit his mission because supposedly that was better for the city. (which it ended up not being or we wouldn't have a sequel)

He stopped the Joker. Saved all of Joker's hostages. Captured Joker. Prisoners didn't blow up the civilians. Civilians didn't blow up the prisoners. Mobsters went to jail.

Hell at the end of Begins we literally hear Gordon say "The Narrows is lost" then he talks about the Joker. Escalation and all that. (not knocking it...still gives me chills) Some victory Gotham is worse than ever!

They lost the narrows but they were ready to burn down the whole city with Fear Gas in Begins. So they prevented further spread. They prevented the type of event that happened exactly in this film.

Sorry but that just doesn't work. Batman never actually wins, because if he did that would mean Gotham is crime free. These are serialized stories winning ends the story.

He wins more than he did here.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah I suppose so. I'm gonna assume no one was killed in that chase based on comic book logic. If this was any other comic book movies I probably won't think much about it, but since this movie took itself seriously, I put it more under real world consideration. That's the flaw about making a serious movie though, all the flaws will be much more obvious.

Or maybe I am just getting too old for movie lol

That chase was crazy, and I think you do have to really stretch your suspension of disbelief to think. It's ok everyone had airbags or seatbelts, lol.

 

[JackWhite]

I got bloody choked up during the flare scene at the end. And the one girl he carries out and places on the stretcher to get airlifted to safety. When she grabs Batman's arm, man, that is so Batman it hurts.

 

[Rod]

People been trying to solve the rataalada stuff. So far, what they managed to get:

Credits to "vengeance22" - Reddit

Do note that Batman #258 was also the frist appearance Arkham, as well.

And not to forget there's also something being slowly uploaded in the site.

Maybe there's some type of math or some parameter to find within these dates or something.


Any thoughts?

 

[AntonGobbs89]

If you want to really blow your mind...think about the fact that if Indiana Jones isn't in Raiders of the Lost Ark overall nothing changes

That’s the classic example of a static character. However, I still say the Nazi’s wouldn’t have found the Ark if it weren’t for Indy since they were digging in the wrong spot.

 

[HarveyHarris]

I got bloody choked up during the flare scene at the end. And the one girl he carries out and places on the stretcher to get airlifted to safety. When she grabs Batman's arm, man, that is so Batman it hurts.

It's definitely up there with "I never said thank you" at the end of Begins. I have to say the first and last 10 minutes of this film were probably my favourite in any bat media.

 

[BobJM]

Am I supposed to assume that the reporter that Falcone killed for Thomas Wayne was Edward Nashton’s father? If so, I didn’t put that together. I just heard someone mention that on one of these YouTube videos.

But that would further tie Bruce, Selina, and Edward together as their origins are all directly spawned by the actions of Carmine Falcone. Which makes me wish all the more he was more of a presence earlier in the film. He needs to be a public philanthropist or some such. If he’s going to be this movie’s ‘Kingpin,’ then the fun part of that is his public persona.

 

[BatsAndNights]

Am I supposed to assume that the reporter that Falcone killed for Thomas Wayne was Edward Nashton’s father? If so, I didn’t put that together. I just heard someone mention that on one of these YouTube videos.

But that would further tie Bruce, Selina, and Edward together as their origins are all directly spawned by the actions of Carmine Falcone. Which makes me wish all the more he was more of a presence earlier in the film. He needs to be a public philanthropist or some such. If he’s going to be this movie’s ‘Kingpin,’ then the fun part of that is his public persona.

Possibly, but I don't think that's necessarily what Reeves' intention was. I think he needed a plot point for the Corruption sideplot, so he went with this idea of the Waynes silencing a journalist. And for whatever reason, he called that journalist "Elliot". Whether that's just a nod for us Batnerds or an implication of the future, only time's gonna tell on that

 

[kolyid]

I actually don't want joker right now and think he is not needed. Its time to explore other villains and we just got joker with phoenix.

You’re not going to get rid of the Joker. He’s going to be there for all the movies. Just face it now.

Also Phoenix isn’t the Joker. He’s just Travis Bickler with makeup.

 

[Gothamsknight]

You’re not going to get rid of the Joker. He’s going to be there for all the movies. Just face it now.

Also Phoenix isn’t the Joker. He’s just Travis Bickler with makeup.

While I do think Joker will be in more movies, I don't see him being the main villain in the next one or possibly in any. I think he'll be a background character for a while.

 

[Web-Head]

Who knows? Regardless of flaws, I'm just so disillusioned by the idea that every comic book movie has to be an MCU romp. The crowd I saw it with was pretty into it, some laughs and gasps along the way, a little bit of an eyeroll at the Joker scene, and solid applause at the end. The 6 other people I saw it with all loved it, and only one of them is a big Batman fan. They even went as far as saying it's the best Batman movie they've seen besides TDK.

If anyone calls this movie straight-up bad, I hate to sound dismissive, but I genuinely won't take them seriously. Especially if they follow that up with, say, praising Black Widow. Sorry to sound like a fanboy, but I was REALLY not into Marvel's 2021 besides Spidey and the first act of Shang-Chi, and I feel like they get so many passes for being (mostly) formulaic and visually uninteresting.

I have to agree. I didn't take him seriously, especially considering he's not a movie guy at all. He's never someone I'd go to for an opinion on a film.

 

[Web-Head]

Am I supposed to assume that the reporter that Falcone killed for Thomas Wayne was Edward Nashton’s father? If so, I didn’t put that together. I just heard someone mention that on one of these YouTube videos.

But that would further tie Bruce, Selina, and Edward together as their origins are all directly spawned by the actions of Carmine Falcone. Which makes me wish all the more he was more of a presence earlier in the film. He needs to be a public philanthropist or some such. If he’s going to be this movie’s ‘Kingpin,’ then the fun part of that is his public persona.

No I assumed the reporter was Hush's father considering his name was Edward Elliot and that's right when they dropped the HUSH Easter egg/tease

 

[Sharkboy]

Can someone explain who that man that Bruce bumped into at the funeral was? Was that supposed to be the riddler goon? Or were they intimating that it was Joe chill? I think I missed the point for this one.

 

[kolyid]

While I do think Joker will be in more movies, I don't see him being the main villain in the next one or possibly in any. I think he'll be a background character for a while.

Oh I completely agree. He won’t be the main villain in the sequel but I think he will have good screen time. Kind of like Farrell as The Penguin in the first film.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Can someone explain who that man that Bruce bumped into at the funeral was? Was that supposed to be the riddler goon? Or were they intimating that it was Joe chill? I think I missed the point for this one.

I've been wondering that myself honestly. Joe Chill is what immediately came to mind.

Oh I completely agree. He won’t be the main villain in the sequel but I think he will have good screen time. Kind of like Farrell as The Penguin in the first film.

Agreed. I still hope we see freeze.

 

[Luke995]

This is an early official concept art.

It's interesting to see that, while the Adam West-style cowl was already decided, little things like the collar and the 1939 logo was added in the process (Pattinson suggested the collar, if I remember correctly).

But what I think is mostly interesting is seeing how the gauntlet changed.
The final gauntlents are the same of Talon's, and we all noticed it from the very beginning.

But after the movie, I'm convinced it isn't just an homage.
What if we don't still know everything about Waynes death and the secrets of Gotham (the truth)?

What if the Court of Owls had maneuvred
subtly and unconsciously Alfred to make Bruce a sort-of-a-Talon?

It would be an interesting struggle for Bruce to discover he had been a puppet without knowing it.

Anyway, the movie opens to something of Arkham's Family plot too.

So I think that, sooner or later, we're gonna have some closure of the circle of plots and secrets about Gotham this movie opened.

Give us an Eyes Wide Shut or something like Bond's Spectre but with Bats, come on! Hahaha

 

[Iceman]

While I do think Joker will be in more movies, I don't see him being the main villain in the next one or possibly in any. I think he'll be a background character for a while.

That would suit me. Build him up more, give some other villains room, and then bring the house down when he finally emerges as the biggest bad of them all.

 

[Iceman]

A- Cinemascore officially. Amazing score for a 3 hour slow burn.

Awesome, wasn’t sure if it would manage to get that. This bodes well then for the chance of better legs.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[u41211]

Seeing it for the 3rd time tomorrow absolutely loved the film. My only complaint is I wish the fight scenes had went on longer. There was such a build up to hearing him coming up the stairs and emerging out of the darkness and then when the beat down started it was over just like that. Just a little nitpick