Ant-Man The best way that Marvel can fix this

[JJ01]

I never asked what had more value. I know what in your opinion has more value. I asked why it has value to you. I also never asked about the excuses. I asked for the reason why the thing you value has value to you. Why do you value Hank Pym suiting up with The Avengers and kicking ass more than Hank Pym being introduced as an older character in a film with Scot Lang as the POV character?

Then I said what has more value to me. These are superhero movies. Call me crazy, I know.

 

[The Question]

Then I said what has more value to me. These are superhero movies. Call me crazy, I know.

But I wasn't asking what has more value to you. I already know that. I was asking why it has more value to you. Why do you think one is more respectful to the character than the other?

 

[Mike Murdock]

^ Presumably, for some people, they grew up with Hank Pym, so they expect or are used to him as "the" Ant-Man character.

I agree. I was really excited to see and know all about that period when he was active. If they stick to old Pym, I want them to keep Douglas. But the main appeal for me, was seeing Hank's character interacting and suiting up with the rest of the Avengers. It's not just about powers or abilities. They're important. But the character and its personality are important too. We can take Pym, Lang and O'Grady. They've been Ant-Men at some point in the comics. However, that doesn't mean they're all the same. Stark, Banner, Pym, Reed, Cho, McCoy, T'Challa to name a few examples, are all smart. But they're different characters with different personalities. I loved the avengers interacting in the first movie. Whedon did a great job handling so many and different characters. So I guess I could say I was looking for that with Pym and the rest of the avengers.

I think that's fair. I could see a cool fan moment of Hank Pym interacting with everyone else. But I think that has to take backseat to a better story idea.

One of the coolest fan moments for me was seeing Peter Parker waking up on the side of a skyscraper wearing the black Spider-Man suit. It's one of the more iconic comicbook moments and it was good to see on the big screen. Unfortunately, the rest of the movie wasn't very good. And, ultimately, it's the story told that matters (and how that story is executed).

Now I think it's possible to think of a good Hank Pym story. It may be possible to think of one as good as the one that Marvel initially fell in love with for Lang (before they fell out of love). But it's a terrible idea to shoehorn in a bad story just to make it Pym instead of Lang. And, quite frankly, a lot of the suggestions to both radically overhaul the story and change very little sound to be just that. Changing Michael Douglas's character to Janet's father seems to create an unnecessary superfluity that would probably weigh down the story. I think Wright's concept (even if heavily rewritten) has a lot of potential as an exciting, different story. Maybe if this were three or four years ago, it wouldn't have been the one I would have written, but that's not the important question. The important question is whether it's a good story.

 

[TheVileOne]

With all respect to Disney, Marvel, Feige, Wright, Douglas, Rudd etc, and this is probably highly unlikely, I'd want to see them delay and completely overhaul this project.

And by overhaul I mean scrap the Scott Lang origin and old man Hank Pym as the mentor or whatever the plan was.

Overhaul it as making Hank Pym younger and the main star.

Also why make it just Ant-Man? He's Giant-Man too.

 

[SpideyFan866]

Push the release back to its original November date.

Delay the start of production 2-3 months, and retool the script.

 

[Jammat]

Removing 'old Pym' would be a mistake, in my view. There is now a surfeit of superhero films, and in the crowded market, each film needs it's own take that makes it stand out. Marvel cannot release a film based on the well trodden path of hero origin - villain reveal - hero v villain fight.

What Wright's Ant-Man had going for it (for the general audience) was, firstly, Wright. Secondly it had an interesting story about an older superhero who was out of the game, a younger criminal who needed to become a hero, and the meeting of the two to win and gain some redemption. The former has gone, the latter (hopefully) remains.

The elements reminiscent of Obi-Wan training Luke or Zorro passing on the mantle, added to the 'to steal an ant-man' narrative of the little guy going against a big corporation to save his daughter (the David and Goliath analogy) made a compelling stand alone story. Further to that, the idea of an elder statesman scientist being introduced to the MCU, a guy that Banner and Stark could both look up to, adds more dimensions to the universe. The universe would then contain a good cross section of heroes, from the older ones who have mentoring roles (Pym, Fury, Odin), through the heroes at their prime (Barton, Romanov, Stark, Banner, Cap and Thor) to the young, new heroes just discovering what they are capable of (the Maximovs, Lang, maybe Vision).

That idea is what I was looking forward to, this film was going to be a new angle on the superhero film, one that looked at the idea of legacy, and passing on a torch. I'm disspointed it won't be directed by Wright, but I'm hoping the ideas that were hinted at are borne out and that we get an interesting, self contained narrative with strong characters performed by top drawer actors.

 

[The Question]

Removing 'old Pym' would be a mistake, in my view. There is now a surfeit of superhero films, and in the crowded market, each film needs it's own take that makes it stand out. Marvel cannot release a film based on the well trodden path of hero origin - villain reveal - hero v villain fight.

What Wright's Ant-Man had going for it (for the general audience) was, firstly, Wright. Secondly it had an interesting story about an older superhero who was out of the game, a younger criminal who needed to become a hero, and the meeting of the two to win and gain some redemption. The former has gone, the latter (hopefully) remains.

The elements reminiscent of Obi-Wan training Luke or Zorro passing on the mantle, added to the 'to steal an ant-man' narrative of the little guy going against a big corporation to save his daughter (the David and Goliath analogy) made a compelling stand alone story. Further to that, the idea of an elder statesman scientist being introduced to the MCU, a guy that Banner and Stark could both look up to, adds more dimensions to the universe. The universe would then contain a good cross section of heroes, from the older ones who have mentoring roles (Pym, Fury, Odin), through the heroes at their prime (Barton, Romanov, Stark, Banner, Cap and Thor) to the young, new heroes just discovering what they are capable of (the Maximovs, Lang, maybe Vision).

That idea is what I was looking forward to, this film was going to be a new angle on the superhero film, one that looked at the idea of legacy, and passing on a torch. I'm disspointed it won't be directed by Wright, but I'm hoping the ideas that were hinted at are borne out and that we get an interesting, self contained narrative with strong characters performed by top drawer actors.

Yes, exactly. Agreed 100%

 

[JJ01]

^ Presumably, for some people, they grew up with Hank Pym, so they expect or are used to him as "the" Ant-Man character.



I think that's fair. I could see a cool fan moment of Hank Pym interacting with everyone else. But I think that has to take backseat to a better story idea.

One of the coolest fan moments for me was seeing Peter Parker waking up on the side of a skyscraper wearing the black Spider-Man suit. It's one of the more iconic comicbook moments and it was good to see on the big screen. Unfortunately, the rest of the movie wasn't very good. And, ultimately, it's the story told that matters (and how that story is executed).

Now I think it's possible to think of a good Hank Pym story. It may be possible to think of one as good as the one that Marvel initially fell in love with for Lang (before they fell out of love). But it's a terrible idea to shoehorn in a bad story just to make it Pym instead of Lang. And, quite frankly, a lot of the suggestions to both radically overhaul the story and change very little sound to be just that. Changing Michael Douglas's character to Janet's father seems to create an unnecessary superfluity that would probably weigh down the story. I think Wright's concept (even if heavily rewritten) has a lot of potential as an exciting, different story. Maybe if this were three or four years ago, it wouldn't have been the one I would have written, but that's not the important question. The important question is whether it's a good story.

They either have to come up with a new and good script, or convince Wright to come back and let him do his thing. I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the director that decides to take the job. t: In all honesty, they should just put it on hold. Don't really want to see yet another IM2 or TDW. Perhaps Wright wanted Pym to be a villain or wanted to kill him as plot twist or something and Marvel had plans for him? Would people be ok if they do something drastic to the current Avengers?

 

[HarryOsborn]

I didn't say it was received poorly, I just said it wasn't very good.

In your opinion it wasn't very good, but there's no reason I can't use it as an example of a good movie with a rushed production.

 

[Mysteryman]

Get a Director, announce it no later than Friday and go with your most current draft of the script.

 

[babykhris]

Push the release back to its original November date.

Delay the start of production 2-3 months, and retool the script.

I think Marvel needs to shoot ASAP. I think after seeing the teaser at last year's SDCC fans will be ready to trash this film now that Wright is gone. Shoot something cool and you got the fans back.

Remember how people were ready to torch Feige because Norton was gone. Feige countered with that epic Avengers lineup...No one was talking bout Norton much after.

 

[Mysteryman]

Exactly.
The goal is to get the fans to talk about that cool SDCC Footage.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Also why make it just Ant-Man? He's Giant-Man too.

Personally, I'd save Giant-Man for Avengers 3. In fact, I've suggested before a running gag where Stark makes fun of Ant-Man's only ability being to get small. Then, in the final battle, he grows to the size of the Hulk.

Removing 'old Pym' would be a mistake, in my view. There is now a surfeit of superhero films, and in the crowded market, each film needs it's own take that makes it stand out. Marvel cannot release a film based on the well trodden path of hero origin - villain reveal - hero v villain fight.

What Wright's Ant-Man had going for it (for the general audience) was, firstly, Wright. Secondly it had an interesting story about an older superhero who was out of the game, a younger criminal who needed to become a hero, and the meeting of the two to win and gain some redemption. The former has gone, the latter (hopefully) remains.

Yeah, pretty much my thought. However, if the concern regarding the "morality" of the film was that there wasn't enough of a redemption at the end, I think losing Wright will be fine. However, if the concern was that they were morally ambiguous characters, my fear is that they will get rid of that dynamic.

In all honesty, they should just put it on hold.

I don't think that's honestly a viable option at this point. A delay could mean one fewer Marvel movie between Avengers 2 and Avengers 3.

 

[Chance Jackson]

They need to delay the film.

the only reason marvel wanted to do an antman film was cause of Wright and his heist film idea, which was also the only reason I and much/most of the internet was interested; if disney is gonna scrap both they might as well scrap it all cause they lost the buzz and positive word of mouth. Maybe release an extended cut of Avengers so they can still use the date

 

[Mysteryman]

I think people are going to be disappointed if they think this film is going to be delayed.

 

[JJ01]

the only reason marvel wanted to do an antman film was cause of Wright and his heist film idea, which was also the only reason I and much/most of the internet was interested; if disney is gonna scrap both they might as well scrap it all cause they lost the buzz and positive word of mouth. Maybe release an extended cut of Avengers so they can still use the date

With Wright and the positive word of mouth plus his vision ruined they should just cancel this thing and focus in other projects then.

 

[Mysteryman]

Marvel wants to remain competitive every summer.
They are not going cancel ANY project until they use up all of their options.

 

[JJ01]

Marvel wants to remain competitive every summer.
They are not going cancel ANY project until they use up all of their options.

Yes, I'm sure the sequel to the biggest superhero movie of all time won't be enough. Guess you would rather watch a half-assed job a la IM2 than nothing. That's ok, I suppose.

 

[Mysteryman]

I do not assume Ant Man is going to be half assed.
And I want to see BOTH films next summer.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Yes, I'm sure the sequel to the biggest superhero movie of all time won't be enough. Guess you would rather watch a half-assed job a la IM2 than nothing. That's ok, I suppose.

I don't think Iron Man 2 was half-assed, I think it was overcooked. There's a difference.

 

[Mysteryman]

Overcooked?
Too many cooks?

 

[Mike Murdock]

Yeah, some combination of the two. The need to include more SHIELD stuff led the father-son dynamic with Vanko to suffer. Although I'm not convinced it added a lot in overall length (thinking back), but it did change pacing and tone, which necessitated other changes.

 

[HarryOsborn]

Yeah, some combination of the two. The need to include more SHIELD stuff led the father-son dynamic with Vanko to suffer. Although I'm not convinced it added a lot in overall length (thinking back), but it did change pacing and tone, which necessitated other changes.

Honestly I don't blame Marvel for Iron Man 2, I blame Faverau. Iron Man was while fantastic grounded in a realistic world with hyper advanced technology that was based on what already existed. For me I lowered my expectations when I saw the ridiculous Stark Expo, I tried to tell myself I was unphased by the tangible holograms, but I couldn't take it seriously anymore once Vanko lived through getting hit by the car like 4 times.

The problem for me wasn't the crowded story, it was the tone.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I don't think Iron Man 2 was half-assed, I think it was overcooked. There's a difference.

Overcooked?
Too many cooks?

Too many asses. Iron Man 2 was four-assed.

 

[chamber-music]

I just want to see this in live action