Age of Ultron The Black Widow Thread

[Minxie]

The Russos affirmed more than once in the commentary as well as in another interview today that Steve and Nat are just friends. They said there's "love" there but it's like "a brother and a sister." It's fine to like them together of course but I wouldn't get my hopes up about actual romance between them on screen.

 

[cherokeesam]

The Russos affirmed more than once in the commentary as well as in another interview today that Steve and Nat are just friends. They said there's "love" there but it's like "a brother and a sister." It's fine to like them together of course but I wouldn't get my hopes up about actual romance between them on screen.

The analogy the Russos used in the AMC interview today was that they were like "a working husband and wife." Working closely together breeds that intimacy, but both of them know that the job comes first, so neither is willing to jump head over heels into the deep end over this. The Russos also said in that interview that a Hollywood romance didn't fit into Cap 2, but hinted that it can be explored in future Avenger and/or Cap movies. They also indicated that Cap is the one that's holding back moreso than Natasha, and said that he's very slow to commit.

All of this could go either way, obviously. But as it stands right now, there's more emotional history between Steve and Natasha in TA1 and CATWS than any ClintTasha or HulkWidow shipping we've seen, and certainly more than any Steve-Sharon possibilities. Whatever status you want to set for the Steve-Natasha relationship as it stands right now, the simple fact of the matter is that he's already gotten farther with Widow than he ever did with Peggy, and that's supposed to be some great Marvel romance (that never came to fruition at all). At least he's still got a chance with Natasha; he never got that chance with Peggy.

 

[Herolee10]

Okay, Black Widow Pairings aside...based on the things that we've head about regarding Natasha's shaded past, do you guys think that she's done more than enough good (after having since joined SHIELD and the Avengers) to make up for her past?

 

[Minxie]

Also, this happened today at the Russos blu-ray signing event. From MarvelRumors on twitter:

“I asked, ‘So, what can you tell me about the future relationship between Natasha and Bucky? It’s clear in the comics.’ They both looked at each other, smiled, then looked at me with their reply. Their response, ‘That news is top secret!’”

So future Bucky/Natasha hasn't exactly been ruled out, I'd say? It's not the first time the directors have hinted they like that pairing, too.

 

[Ghostcrow13]

Okay, Black Widow Pairings aside...based on the things that we've head about regarding Natasha's shaded past, do you guys think that she's done more than enough good (after having since joined SHIELD and the Avengers) to make up for her past?

She's saved the world at least twice, so unless her past involves plotting galaxy wide destruction, I don't see why not.

Of course perhaps if it turned out she was racist or something and did severe hate crimes, then perhaps not.

 

[cherokeesam]

Also, this happened today at the Russos blu-ray signing event. From MarvelRumors on twitter:

So future Bucky/Natasha hasn't exactly been ruled out, I'd say? It's not the first time the directors have hinted they like that pairing, too.

Sure, anything is possible in the future. But when you look at what's established in the *movie* universe, there's only two guys who have shown any hint of a relationship with Natasha, and that's Steve and Clint. Of those two, Steve's relationship has been realtime, while we can only speculate about whatever happened between Clint and Natasha in the past.

As for making Bucky and Natasha a thing because comics, that's all well and good; but if we're using "because comics" as an excuse, then Scarjo needs to join the cast of Daredevil. Natasha has more history with Matt Murdock than all the rest of the MCU guys combined.

 

[kaijunexus]

I've got lots of platonic friends, and I've never tongue-kissed a single one of them; not even to distract enemy agents chasing us down. (How does that "everybody hates a PDA" theory work, anyway? IRL, it's the total opposite: you see a couple making out in the middle of a crowd, and EVERYBODY looks; even if they're disgusted.)

Maybe you stare creepily at people making out in public, but I sure don't. And I'd wager a bet that most people wouldn't. Not because they find it disgusting, but because it's a very personal act. People avert their eyes because they don't want to be or feel involved in someone else's personal matters.

And that wasn't the only reason to kiss in that situation. Kissing was the only means of adequately hiding both their faces without looking suspicious.

The car ride immediately after the kiss sets up PLENTY of romantic and sexual tension between Cap and Natasha. That's the whole purpose of that dialogue. Especially the last lines of that scene:

Steve: You know, it's kinda hard to trust someone when you don't know who that someone really is.
Natasha: (eyes grow cold; then soften) Yeah...Who do you want me to be?
Steve (hesitates): How 'bout a friend?
Natasha: (smirks; then the coldness returns): There's a chance you might be in the wrong business, Rogers. (wistful smile goes away; they exchange a look)

That's the kind of sexual and emotional tension you can cut with a knife.

There was absolutely nothing sexual about that dialogue. Cap explicitly asks Widow to be his FRIEND and she completely rebuffs him.

If there was anything that brought sexual tension to that scene, it was the slightly knowing glances each actor gave to each other in that moment. But that struck me more as each of them trying to read each other than feeling attracted to one another.

I can also go on about how the majority of Black Widow's scenes in The Avengers features Cap as her personal knight in shining armor, and again, how she's paired up with Cap in Seoul in AOU while carrying his shield, but you'd probably go into denial about all that, too.

...what?

I can't think of a single scene in The Avengers where Cap saves Widow in any capacity, or where they even have any dialogue between one another that isn't purely business.

And are you serious about the Seoul thing? We have no idea about the context of that scene. And how does Widow holding his shield represent her emotional feelings for him in any way. Seriously. That's beyond reaching.

And just to put the Cap/Widow relationship thing to rest...she spent the entirety of Winter Soldier trying to get Cap a date with anyone OTHER than herself. And at the end, when she could have joined Cap and Falcon in their search for Bucky (spending much more time with Cap, who you believes she wants a relationship with), she leaves them to go do her own thing.

The Russos have said numerous times that Cap and Widow have a WORKING relationship and operate on the level of brother and sister.

Plus, you have the rumors of Widow being with Banner in AoS, and the potential for her to have a relationship with Bucky in Cap 3.

There is ZERO evidence to suggest that Captain America and Black Widow will ever be a couple. They just had an entire film that featured the two of them almost exclusively, with them being alone together in many scenes. Nothing romantic was explored.

 

[BoredGuy]

Yeah sorry sam, but I gotta agree with this guy^^


and if you've never tongue kissed your platonic friends, you gots ta get some better friends!
lol

 

[cherokeesam]

Maybe you stare creepily at people making out in public, but I sure don't. And I'd wager a bet that most people wouldn't. Not because they find it disgusting, but because it's a very personal act. People avert their eyes because they don't want to be or feel involved in someone else's personal matters.

And that wasn't the only reason to kiss in that situation. Kissing was the only means of adequately hiding both their faces without looking suspicious.



There was absolutely nothing sexual about that dialogue. Cap explicitly asks Widow to be his FRIEND and she completely rebuffs him.

If there was anything that brought sexual tension to that scene, it was the slightly knowing glances each actor gave to each other in that moment. But that struck me more as each of them trying to read each other than feeling attracted to one another.



...what?

I can't think of a single scene in The Avengers where Cap saves Widow in any capacity, or where they even have any dialogue between one another that isn't purely business.

And are you serious about the Seoul thing? We have no idea about the context of that scene. And how does Widow holding his shield represent her emotional feelings for him in any way. Seriously. That's beyond reaching.

And just to put the Cap/Widow relationship thing to rest...she spent the entirety of Winter Soldier trying to get Cap a date with anyone OTHER than herself. And at the end, when she could have joined Cap and Falcon in their search for Bucky (spending much more time with Cap, who you believes she wants a relationship with), she leaves them to go do her own thing.

The Russos have said numerous times that Cap and Widow have a WORKING relationship and operate on the level of brother and sister.

Plus, you have the rumors of Widow being with Banner in AoS, and the potential for her to have a relationship with Bucky in Cap 3.

There is ZERO evidence to suggest that Captain America and Black Widow will ever be a couple. They just had an entire film that featured the two of them almost exclusively, with them being alone together in many scenes. Nothing romantic was explored.

You missed the part where Cap shields *Natasha* from the exploding Leviathan, when she could just as easily take shelter behind a car like Hawkeye, a few steps away? Cap singled her out for the chivalry play.


Look, it's this simple: Chris Evans and Scarlett Johansson have chemistry. They're close friends in real life, and they've played romantic leads opposite each other in two films before the MCU. That chemistry shows through in both the friendship and the will they-won't they romantic tension between Cap and Widow.

Proven onscreen chemistry between Scarjo and Evans makes sense.
Close comrades in arms taking their friendship to a higher level makes sense.
Natasha seeking redemption for her sins through a living legend and walking saint like Captain America makes sense.
The political symbolism of a Russian icon and an American icon coming together (literally....*koff*) makes sense.

Gambling on an unproven chemistry between Scarjo and Renner, Ruffalo, or Stan *doesn't* make sense.
Having Widow hook up with any one of three guys (Clint, Bruce, Bucky) whose only onscreen interactions with her have involved *all three* of them trying to brutally murder her...while being literally out of their f'king minds at the time....makes absolutely *no* sense. (Unless you're a big fan of Ray Rice and his battered wife, maybe.)

 

[Minxie]

As for making Bucky and Natasha a thing because comics, that's all well and good; but if we're using "because comics" as an excuse, then Scarjo needs to join the cast of Daredevil. Natasha has more history with Matt Murdock than all the rest of the MCU guys combined.

Yeah well, Daredevil was lame because he treated her terribly so... Bucky/Natasha is a beautifully equal, compatible and supportive relationship which opens up a lot more storytelling avenues for the MCU to explore. It makes a hell lot of sense.

 

[BoredGuy]

Thor saved BW's ass big time from Hulk
Maybe he should dump Jane and get with 'tasha

 

[TalismanRing]

The Russos have said numerous times that Cap and Widow have a WORKING relationship and operate on the level of brother and sister.

Actually as pointed out they refer to it as a work wife/husband relationship and not brother/sister.

They also acknowledge there's sexual chemistry there - that they are both incredibly attractive people and that there's growing emotional intimacy. Most brothers don't get a sexual surge from kissing their sister - and Cap did - hence the that's not what I'm feeling right now line.

Both Scarlett and Chris have also said it's not an either or situation, that it's complex like most real life relationships - that there's attraction on different levels but the primary one in the film is working and growing friendship. Scarlett called it leaving a door open to possibilities.

The Russos said they decided to keep it at a certain level because the film takes place over short period of time, Steve's first priority will always be the "job" and that the film takes time over too short a period of time for Cap to get involved with anyone since he needs to take his time. (look at TFA, it took 2 years to kiss Peggy and she kissed him).

I think bypassing Natasha and Steve is a huge wasted opportunity since Scarlett and Chris have incredible chemistry on screen and a BW/Steve relationship would be a compelling one between friends and equals and would have more weight on screen than other MCU couples even Tony and Pepper since they spend more time together on screen and they're both heroes and protagonists.

As for Nat/Bucky, it worked for a time in the comics but there was nothing in TWS that tells me it would work on screen since there's been no foundation laid for it except he's shot her twice and tried to kill her. They no longer share the past of the Red Room (which wasn't that long a period) and we have no idea how the character let alone actor chemistry would even play screen. The MCU isn't the comics otherwise we wouldn't have Tony/Pepper.

I do believe the BW/Hulk in AoU rumors and I think there were scenes in The Avengers that show they act well off each other and Scarlett and Mark are both fine enough actors to make a romantic element work on screen. But I'm not crazy about the aspect of fear and a previous murder attempt in the relationship that exists because of The Hulk. Also, if they carry over the element from The Incredible Hulk where he can't have sex or he'll hulk out that's disturbing as well as far too close to Whedon's Buffy and Angel.

 

[Herolee10]

Personally, i think the reasons why quite a few like the idea or wish for the possibility of a future romantic relationship to happen between Steve and Natasha are..

1. Both actors have great chemistry with each other.

2. Fans find it more tolerable to bear than the idea of Steve hooking up with Peggy's niece.

3. Scarlett's black widow has a bigger following than Emily's Sharon Carter.

4. Some tumblr fans just want to see poor Steve Rogers lose his virginity already.lol

5. This pairing would then mean that black widow is a lock in for CA 3, assuming if nothing bad were to take place between them in A2

 

[Minxie]

Actually as pointed out they refer to it as a work wife/husband relationship and not brother/sister.

No, actually, they used the specific words "like a brother and a sister" in the blu-ray commentary. Just putting that out there lol.

As for Nat/Bucky, it worked for a time in the comics but there was nothing in TWS that tells me it would work on screen since there's been no foundation laid for it except he's shot her twice and tried to kill her. They no longer share the past of the Red Room (which wasn't that long a period) and we have no idea how the character let alone actor chemistry would even play screen.

Their history in the Red Room isn't the main reason they were together, though, you realize. It was because they'd gone through the same experiences of being brainwashed, weaponized, turned into tools for autocratic regimes, and done a whole lot of terrible things because of it that they now want to atone for. Their Red Room affair was an act of rebellion against their controllers, a secret thing that helped them survive brutal circumstances and made them happy for a time, but they got back together in the present day because they were uniquely capable of making each other comfortable and vulnerable in ways they couldn't be with other people - they literally have lines talking about how "no one else understands". That is ultimately what a potential MCU Bucky/Natasha couple would come down to. Those commonalities still exist in the MCU with or without them knowing each other previously. Their narrative arcs parallel each other perfectly, more than anyone else. There is a rich dynamic and an innate understanding there that ought to be explored. That would be the real wasted relationship if it never happens, imo.
And I'd honestly be shocked if there wasn't chemistry between the actors, you rarely see those two actors fail to have chemistry with anyone they're supposed to be romantically involved with on screen. Hell there was chemistry just in that one shot where she smiled at him and he glared back, and struts down that car after her like someone showing off.

 

[TalismanRing]

No, actually, they used the specific words "like a brother and a sister" in the blu-ray commentary. Just putting that out there lol.

The Russos have said both - so I guess they're fluid. Chris and Scarlett ooze chemistry on screen and Steve's feelings after that kiss aren't brotherly and Natasha often teases and flirts in a non sisterly way. Maybe the Russos meant bother and sister like Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver. t:

Many actors don't have sexual, romantic or even friendship chemistry on screen and some characters don't mesh on screen. If it was common it wouldn't be remarked on so strongly when it really and truly works. There's a chasm of difference between Tony/Pepper chemistry and Thor/Jane chemistry. Just as there's a world of difference between Steve's first few minutes with Sam vs those with Sharon on screen. That mainly comes from the actors because I don't think it was planned that Steve have more romantic chemistry with Sam than Sharon.

I didn't see any chemistry in that shot between BW and WS. That scene was all about a fight for life on her end and the pursuit of killing on his. She's afraid for her life but still thinking on her feet and WS doesn't move toward her any differently than he did when walking toward Fury. So by that reasoning, maybe WS and Fury should hook up since trying to murder someone and putting bullets in their body obviously spells romance.

Sometimes the problem with characters having too similar experiences is that there's no frisson or spark since there's no conflict. What drives much of Nat and Steve's chemistry are their differences as much as their similarities. In this scenario BW & WS conflict would come from him shooting her twice and trying to murder her. There is no prior shared experience or background for Nat to put it it into perspective as there was with Hawkeye or even with Banner. He's never been anything to her but but a cold blooded murderer. He's also the reason she can't wear a bikini. The jerk.

 

[Minxie]

I didn't see any chemistry in that shot between BW and WS. That scene was all about a fight for life on her end and the pursuit of killing on his. She's afraid for her life but still thinking on her feet and WS doesn't move toward her any differently than he did when walking toward Fury. So by that reasoning, maybe WS and Fury should hook up since trying to murder someone and putting bullets in their body obviously spells romance.

Sometimes the problem with characters having too similar experiences is that there's no frisson or spark since there's no conflict. What drives much of Nat and Steve's chemistry are their differences as much as their similarities. In this scenario BW & WS conflict would come from him shooting her twice and trying to murder her. There is no prior shared experience or background for Nat to put it it into perspective as there was with Hawkeye or even with Banner. He's never been anything to her but but a cold blooded murderer. He's also the reason she can't wear a bikini. The jerk.

Pairings don't need conflict or to be opposites to have chemistry, there's thousands of examples of any kind working, and I'm of the opinion that in the case of Nat and Bucky, it is similarities that matter above anything else and makes them compatible. I mean you just noted Sam and Steve have chemistry and like, that's because they're similar people with shared experiences. All kinds of pairings work, and it depends on the characters. There isn't one way for a superhero couple to work.

And I don't know about you but I detected way more of a strut in Bucky's movements towards her lol, and his anger there is especially notable considering he's not supposed to feel personally motivated to go after a target. I actually analyzed the whole scene here a few days ago explaining there's a lot more going on than Nat "fighting for her life" and Bucky pursuing her robotically (in response to a stupid post that tried to claim Natasha had been terrified and hopelessly outgunned - she wasn't).
Going off of that, of all the opponents she's faced a brainwashed (former Soviet?) assassin would be someone she'd know exactly how to manipulate, and what it would take to get him to make a mistake and distract him. And furthermore, I would think that would carry over into the next movie with her knowing how to talk to him and feeling a great deal of empathy because she'd see so much of herself in him. Nat doesn't hold grudges against people who've done things beyond their control - it's only herself and her past crimes that she has trouble forgiving.

 

[TalismanRing]

Yeah, still not buying into it - especially the first part about there being something between them as he's trying to kill them all. The WS is angry because he's being thwarted. He's not succeeding in his mission - to kill them both.

As for Natasha, I don't think she's even going to be in Cap 3. But even if she were I'd find it highly out of character for her to be anything but distrustful that his programming was completely gone. She told Steve that it was probably best not to pull on that string. She isn't exactly pouring out empathy there for him to go and rescue his friend let alone wanting to step in herself and help him out.

So she may have empathy for his extenuated circumstances but that doesn't mean she's also not a realist. Without their shared past there is no conceivable reason why she would be the one who needs to reach out to him.

Hawkeye in this scenario would make more sense since he's also committed atrocities while brain washed (also slaying multiple SHIELD agents) but doesn't have the attendant baggage of having the the WS try to kill him personally or leave bullet holes in his body.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Wow...this thread is heavy...

Great posts all. I listened to the commentary of TWS, and it was very informative.

 

[Minxie]

Yeah, still not buying into it - especially the first part about there being something between them as he's trying to kill them all.

Well I'm not saying there was some great love connection being made, that would be ridiculous. I'm just saying there's a great deal of symbolic relevance to Nat removing his goggles ("opening his eyes") and that first display of human emotion in him (not to mention his first lines in the movie being about her, in Russian) - it's just as symbolically important as Steve removing the mask and giving him a name.

As for Natasha, I don't think she's even going to be in Cap 3. But even if she were I'd find it highly out of character for her to be anything but distrustful that his programming was completely gone. She told Steve that it was probably best not to pull on that string. She isn't exactly pouring out empathy there for him to go and rescue his friend let alone wanting to step in herself and help him out.

So she may have empathy for his extenuated circumstances but that doesn't mean she's also not a realist. Without their shared past there is no conceivable reason why she would be the one who needs to reach out to him.

And I would argue that if she saw him again, saw him the way he is while trying to be a person again after everything's that been done to him, she would feel empathy and reach out to him. She's not obligated to at all, I just think she'd find herself wanting to and it would be in fact be perfectly in character for her.

 

[TalismanRing]

WS's only personal connections in the movie are with Steve and Pierce - one for each side of him.

Nat is about as personally or symbolically relevant to the WS in these scenes and the movie as Sam is - which is not at all.

Or maybe we are to believe that when Sam tries to save Steve after the WS kicks him off the platform, angrily pulls him from the sky and breaks his wings it's all because of WS's jealousy and latent feelings that only he can save Steve and that he's angry about Sam usurping his place as Steve's BFF and protector and not just because he wants them both dead.

 

[Minxie]

WS's only personal connections in the movie are with Steve and Pierce - one for each side of him.

Nat is about as personally or symbolically relevant to the WS in these scenes and the movie as Sam is - which is not at all.

Or maybe we are to believe that when Sam tries to save Steve after the WS kicks him off the platform, angrily pulls him from the sky and breaks his wings it's all because of WS's jealousy and latent feelings that only he can save Steve and that he's angry about Sam usurping his place as Steve's BFF and protector and not just because he wants them both dead.

*siiigh* I didn't say that it means there's an actual personal connection there, just that there *is* symbolism in that one particular instance of her starting the process that removes his mask. A ton of people have talked about the symbolism behind the mask removal and what it represented in re-humanizing the Winter Soldier, I'm not the only one by far. So I'm just saying it's not an accident that Natasha had a hand in that, and it could very well mean foreshadowing for what's to come in the next movie.

 

[TalismanRing]

A ton of people as in perhaps WS fans and die hard WS/Natasha shippers? Clintasha fans belief that the arrow necklace means they're meant to be in AoU has far more tangible weight and I'm not betting on that either. Heck, Steve and Natasha have an actual multi-scene film long personal relationship on screen with tons of chemistry and I don't think they're happening.

So, I'm going to put Nat partially contributing to damaging WS's goggles during a life and death struggle - so he has to take them off in order to continue trying to kill them all - to the sometimes a cigar is just a cigar file.

 

[Three_Inches]

Okay, Black Widow Pairings aside...based on the things that we've head about regarding Natasha's shaded past, do you guys think that she's done more than enough good (after having since joined SHIELD and the Avengers) to make up for her past?

Well we don't really know exactly how much bad she got down to, but I think the effort that she's making for redemption alone makes up for whatever she's done.

I also would argue that she's more interested in doing what's right than she is in any personal glory.

 

[Just_Human]

Yes curve ball from Whedon, she lifts the hammer at the end of movie even though she said during the party she wouldn't be able to do so.
(and she did lift it in the comics)

 

[Three_Inches]

I don't know about it being BW that lifts it or maybe Cap, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone did.