Infinity War The Black Widow Thread

[AvengerPA]

What do you think Black Widow's part in this movie will be? How much screen time will she get in comparison to the other actors?

 

[zephyrinthesky]

Hopefully her role in the film won't be cut down to the level of Falcon and Hawkeye in Civil War. If she doesn't get a solo film and this is her last kick at the can, I'd want her to have some significant screentime.

I can see her character starting out in one of two ways. She can be either with the rest of the renegade Avengers, and feeling remorseful over the part she played in having her friends thrown in prison and labeled as criminals. I can see the other Avengers treating her with suspicion, and anger stemming from effectively being torn from their normal lives. If Clint is separated from his family, Natasha might be driven by her life debt to make things right for him.

Or, she can start off another way as a jaded loner who's wary (again) of attachment because how her her attempts at integrity and pragmatism in Civil War proved ineffective. This could feel like backtracking on the character progress that she's already made, though.


However they portray her, I hope they portray the stakes of being a wanted fugitive properly. Widow's burned the safety nets of the KGB, SHIELD and the Avengers. In addition to violating the Accords, governments have an opportunity to go after her for the rest of the terrible things she did as a Black Widow agent.

 

[ScarlettW]

What do you think Black Widow's part in this movie will be? How much screen time will she get in comparison to the other actors?

I hope she's going to have a big role, and I hope she's not going to have any romance. I want her to be like she was in TWS.

 

[Capsfan]

I hope they won't push her romance with Bucky because of its popularity in comic-books as they did with Steve and Sharon. In the MCU it's just too late to retcon their shared history. Especially after BW asking T'Challa to join the team. She knew he wanted to kill Bucky, not catch him. The line 'You could at least recognize me' was weird and jarring.

 

[ScarlettW]

I hope they won't push her romance with Bucky because of its popularity in comic-books as they did with Steve and Sharon. In the MCU it's just too late to retcon their shared history. Especially after BW asking T'Challa to join the team. She knew he wanted to kill Bucky, not catch him. The line 'You could at least recognize me' was weird and jarring.

Finally someone agrees with me. But I was talking about that romance with Bruce.

 

[Capsfan]

Finally someone agrees with me. But I was talking about that romance with Bruce.

I thought this after my first watching and was surprised that so many people still wanted to see Buckynat after Civil War. They've completely killed this ship for me by Nat's behavior regarding Bucky.

As for Brutasha, I will be really surprised if they continue with it. It was Whedon's idea and it's got tons of backlash. I'm almost certain it will quietly go away.

 

[ScarlettW]

I thought this after my first watching and was surprised that so many people still wanted to see Buckynat after Civil War. They've completely killed this ship for me by Nat's behavior regarding Bucky.

As for Brutasha, I will be really surprised if they continue with it. It was Whedon's idea and it's got tons of backlash. I'm almost certain it will quietly go away.

I only realized after a while. And T'Challa almost killed Bucky if it wasn't for Wanda. BuckyNat fans are similar to Sharon fans, no matter how, they just want to see their ship that is canon in the comics on the MCU.

I don't see her being paired with another character after the backslash with Bruce.

 

[NealKenneth]

Black Widow has been flirtatious with Tony (Iron Man 2), Steve (TWS) and Hulk (AoU) so far. Not sure what it was about Hulk that made people react differently, but anyway, I thought all three were convincing.

I think she'll have a fairly substantial role, much like TWS and CW. It's the same writers. And, like everyone else, it might not be substantial in the sense of screentime, but in the sense that she'll have impact on the plot. Which I would argue is a lot more important than screentime. I also wonder what it is about Widow's past that people are hoping to find out that's so intriguing. I'd say we've learned quite a lot already...a lot more than we've learned about Hawkeye or Scarlet Witch for example.

 

[Xeno]

I hope they won't push her romance with Bucky because of its popularity in comic-books as they did with Steve and Sharon. In the MCU it's just too late to retcon their shared history. Especially after BW asking T'Challa to join the team. She knew he wanted to kill Bucky, not catch him. The line 'You could at least recognize me' was weird and jarring.

What about Bucky's behavior towards Natasha? He shot her twice and almost killed her both times, and then tried to strangle her to death in CW. In TWS, Natasha kept fighting Barnes because he was killing innocent civilians in his mindless quest to assassinate Steve.When she asked if he recognized her she was undoubtedly referring to the previous occasions on which he tried to cold-bloodedly murder her. When Barnes was asked by Tony if he even remembered killing Tony's parents, the assassin admitted that he remembered all of his victims. For me, that blew the "mind control/mind-wiping" defense clear out of the water. If he remembered slaughtering the Starks a quarter century before, he surely must have memories of all of the times he tried to kill Natasha.

With her knowledge of Barnes' lethal past and the danger he posed to the public, Natasha did what she thought best in bringing T'Challa into the search. There was no indication that Barnes was anything more than the mindless killer he had been for over 70 years at that point.

 

[ScarlettW]

What about Bucky's behavior towards Natasha? He shot her twice and almost killed her both times, and then tried to strangle her to death in CW. In TWS, Natasha kept fighting Barnes because he was killing innocent civilians in his mindless quest to assassinate Steve.When she asked if he recognized her she was undoubtedly referring to the previous occasions on which he tried to cold-bloodedly murder her. When Barnes was asked by Tony if he even remembered killing Tony's parents, the assassin admitted that he remembered all of his victims. For me, that blew the "mind control/mind-wiping" defense clear out of the water. If he remembered slaughtering the Starks a quarter century before, he surely must have memories of all of the times he tried to kill Natasha.

With her knowledge of Barnes' lethal past and the danger he posed to the public, Natasha did what she thought best in bringing T'Challa into the search. There was no indication that Barnes was anything more than the mindless killer he had been for over 70 years at that point.

Bucky did not know what he was doing when he was trying to kill Natasha, he was brainwashed.
When he tells Tony that he remembers them all, it's because he regained his memory over the time, but it does not mean that every time he killed he knew what he was doing. This is very clear in the film that he did what he did under brainwashing. He remembers them, and needs to live with it. That's why he tells Steve that despite the brainwashing, he did, meaning he feels guilty.

No one is blaming Natasha for bringing T'Challa to the fight. What we're saying is about people saying that she and Bucky are going to have a romance when she doesn't seem to care about him, or maybe she doesn't trust him. Despite this, they are similar, she also killed many people under brainwashing, perhaps that is why she doesn't trust him.

 

[ScarlettW]

Black Widow has been flirtatious with Tony (Iron Man 2), Steve (TWS) and Hulk (AoU) so far. Not sure what it was about Hulk that made people react differently, but anyway, I thought all three were convincing.

I think she'll have a fairly substantial role, much like TWS and CW. It's the same writers. And, like everyone else, it might not be substantial in the sense of screentime, but in the sense that she'll have impact on the plot. Which I would argue is a lot more important than screentime. I also wonder what it is about Widow's past that people are hoping to find out that's so intriguing. I'd say we've learned quite a lot already...a lot more than we've learned about Hawkeye or Scarlet Witch for example.

With Bruce she felt like a damsel in danger, she wanted to run away with him, and felt like a monster because she was infertile. She was Natasha different from TWS.
It was a romamce that came from nowhere, and there was no chemistry between them.
That's why the Russos have done a great job with her so far. I hope they're going to cut the crap out of his romance with Bruce, and keep her the way they do.

I also think she's going to play a substantial role here. They love Natasha.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

BuckyNat fans are similar to Sharon fans, no matter how, they just want to see their ship that is canon in the comics on the MCU.

Yeah. Crazy.

I don't think it'll ever happen now, but Steve never tried to have Sharon killed.

 

[zephyrinthesky]

Aside from the fact that a Bucky/Natasha pairing makes no sense in the films, IW doesn't have room for another romance. Period.

 

[NealKenneth]

Up until TWS, Natascha was this very guarded badass, but then Steve showed her that it could be okay to open up and trust people. So the implication is that between TWS and AoU she did that and as a result she started to fall for Banner. Talking about her sterilization to Banner, even in private, was the final proof that she had grown, in this case by learning to open up and expose her deepest, darkest secrets. It's a character arc.

I also feel that her becoming the person who calmed Banner down was set up in Avengers already, when she is the one trying to calm him down on the Helicarrier. It's very believable to me that she and him would grow closer through this reapeated process. By the sheer risk of getting near enough Hulk to calm him down she had to make herself vulnerable to him again and again. And their chemistry was great, it felt very natural.

She also wasn't a damsal in distress at all. I would say Banner actually depended more on Natascha throughout the film, both to calm him down and keep him calm at the start and then kick him into gear with Ultron.

 

[legendkillin]

Aside from the fact that a Bucky/Natasha pairing makes no sense in the films, IW doesn't have room for another romance. Period.

Can't keep passing Natasha off either.

 

[ScarlettW]

Aside from the fact that a Bucky/Natasha pairing makes no sense in the films, IW doesn't have room for another romance. Period.

Enough romance, Wanda and Vision is enough, otherwise this film will become a romantic comedy.

I don't want the Russos wasting time with romance. There are many characters in this film, and I hope the focus will be on the story about the Avengers vs. Thanos.

 

[ScarlettW]

Up until TWS, Natascha was this very guarded badass, but then Steve showed her that it could be okay to open up and trust people. So the implication is that between TWS and AoU she did that and as a result she started to fall for Banner. Talking about her sterilization to Banner, even in private, was the final proof that she had grown, in this case by learning to open up and expose her deepest, darkest secrets. It's a character arc.

I also feel that her becoming the person who calmed Banner down was set up in Avengers already, when she is the one trying to calm him down on the Helicarrier. It's very believable to me that she and him would grow closer through this reapeated process. By the sheer risk of getting near enough Hulk to calm him down she had to make herself vulnerable to him again and again. And their chemistry was great, it felt very natural.

She also wasn't a damsal in distress at all. I would say Banner actually depended more on Natascha throughout the film, both to calm him down and keep him calm at the start and then kick him into gear with Ultron.

There are so many problems in this relationship that it's best to forget. In addition, this makes a relationship of co-dependence, which is not healthy.
I'm sorry, Bruce has more chemistry with Tony than with her. And that was certainly Scarlett's worst performance on the MCU.

I still don't forget the face boob plant; she sends a message to Clint about her location, but can't get out of there; disrespecting Clint's house when she wanted to bathe with Bruce.

 

[Capsfan]

I only realized after a while. And T'Challa almost killed Bucky if it wasn't for Wanda. BuckyNat fans are similar to Sharon fans, no matter how, they just want to see their ship that is canon in the comics on the MCU.

I don't see her being paired with another character after the backslash with Bruce.

Exactly.

The thing is, there was this rumor on Reddit about the first version of Civil War, which was shown to an early test audience. It says that in this first draft Bucky and BW had a scene in the airport where Bucky was indicated as recognizing BW and having a reaction to her. Allegedly, there even was a quick flashback to their time in Red Room. This would explain Natasha's weird request to Bucky to recognize her.
If it is true, I'm glad it has been cut. It would feel like completely out-of-nowhere and awful retcon. If Natasha knew him, if Natasha romanced him back then, she should have known that there was still something human in Bucky. She should have seen him in her nightmare vision about Red Room in AoU. It's too late for this. Natasha is a friend of Steve, she would have told him she knew Bucky personally back then.

What about Bucky's behavior towards Natasha? He shot her twice and almost killed her both times, and then tried to strangle her to death in CW. In TWS, Natasha kept fighting Barnes because he was killing innocent civilians in his mindless quest to assassinate Steve.When she asked if he recognized her she was undoubtedly referring to the previous occasions on which he tried to cold-bloodedly murder her. When Barnes was asked by Tony if he even remembered killing Tony's parents, the assassin admitted that he remembered all of his victims. For me, that blew the "mind control/mind-wiping" defense clear out of the water. If he remembered slaughtering the Starks a quarter century before, he surely must have memories of all of the times he tried to kill Natasha.

With her knowledge of Barnes' lethal past and the danger he posed to the public, Natasha did what she thought best in bringing T'Challa into the search. There was no indication that Barnes was anything more than the mindless killer he had been for over 70 years at that point.

Sebastian Stan said that Bucky doesn't really remember all of them, it's simply impossible. He gave an elaborated answer why Bucky said so to Tony, but I can't remember it accurately. Something about this being what Tony wanted to hear and that it's pointless to explain anything to someone in the state of mind like Tony had in that scene.

Totally agree with ScarlettW:

No one is blaming Natasha for bringing T'Challa to the fight. What we're saying is about people saying that she and Bucky are going to have a romance when she doesn't seem to care about him, or maybe she doesn't trust him. Despite this, they are similar, she also killed many people under brainwashing, perhaps that is why she doesn't trust him.

Steve is Bucky's friend, not ex-lover. He saw the devastation of the Winter Soldier by himself as well as Natasha. But he still has faith in Bucky, he believes that Bucky is worth saving. There would be no sense in Nat knowing Bucky from the Red Room, having shared history and a relationship and at the same time being so uncaring about Bucky's life.

When she asked if he recognized her she was undoubtedly referring to the previous occasions on which he tried to cold-bloodedly murder her.

BW's line 'You could at least recognize me' made a little sense. It's weird, why would she ask him to remember their previous encounters as enemies and how he shot her twice? How could it help her? Was Bucky supposed to suddenly decide upon this realization, 'Oh, well. I've already shot you twice. I guess now I will stop killing you because of it.'? t:

I don't think it'll ever happen now, but Steve never tried to have Sharon killed.

That's not the point. Otherwise we can recall Sharon killing Cap in the comics while also being brainwashed.
The point is how well-written and thought-out a romance is. Buckynat makes no sense at this point in the MCU no matter how popular it is among comic-book fans. It's already too late.
Steve/Sharon had an acceptable setup in TWS, which could have been explored into something great with a proper development, but Civil War butchered them.

 

[The_Manhunter]

She doesn't need a huge role. She's had 4 movies with pretty substantial roles already. Thanos is out of her skill set, leave this to the big hitters (Thor, Strange, Captain Marvel, etc.).

 

[ScarlettW]

Exactly.

The thing is, there was this rumor on Reddit about the first version of Civil War, which was shown to an early test audience. It says that in this first draft Bucky and BW had a scene in the airport where Bucky was indicated as recognizing BW and having a reaction to her. Allegedly, there even was a quick flashback to their time in Red Room. This would explain Natasha's weird request to Bucky to recognize her.
If it is true, I'm glad it has been cut. It would feel like completely out-of-nowhere and awful retcon. If Natasha knew him, if Natasha romanced him back then, she should have known that there was still something human in Bucky. She should have seen him in her nightmare vision about Red Room in AoU. It's too late for this. Natasha is a friend of Steve, she would have told him she knew Bucky personally back then.

It seems there was a scene in the script that they both had a convo, but no one knows what it really was, some people think it was about Steve.
There is a scene in the novelization that she talks about the red room for Steve, but it has nothing to do with Bucky.

 

[Capsfan]

It seems there was a scene in the script that they both had a convo, but no one knows what it really was, some people think it was about Steve.
There is a scene in the novelization that she talks about the red room for Steve, but it has nothing to do with Bucky.

Yeah, that rumor also suggested that they had a brief talk about Steve in the airport.
There was definitely at least one conversation between Bucky and Nat which has been cut from the final version. The Russos themselves told fans on some comic-con that BW and Bucky 'talk'.

 

[ScarlettW]

Yeah, that rumor also suggested that they had a brief talk about Steve in the airport.
There was definitely at least one conversation between Bucky and Nat which has been cut from the final version. The Russos themselves told fans on some comic-con that BW and Bucky 'talk'.

Probably about Steve. If the Russos wanted to make Bucky and Natasha a couple, they would have already started working on it since TWS, so far we haven't seen anything.

I was thinking about Natasha's hair in IW. I would love it if she had Scarlett's current haircut!

 

[zephyrinthesky]

Probably about Steve. If the Russos wanted to make Bucky and Natasha a couple, they would have already started working on it since TWS, so far we haven't seen anything.

I was thinking about Natasha's hair in IW. I would love it if she had Scarlett's current haircut!

Long hair or bust for me. Somewhere in between the TWS and CW cut please. Shoot me now if they decide to bring back the AOU mom-bob.

Scarlett is really short to begin with - long hair gives more "presence" IMO for someone who's supposed to be this lethal heroine.

 

[Capsfan]

If the Russos wanted to make Bucky and Natasha a couple, they would have already started working on it since TWS, so far we haven't seen anything.

After CW I'm not so sure. We have seen this weird request from Natasha to recognize her. Bucky takes BW's gun in the quinjet (minor, I know, but what's the purpose of that close-up 'Romanoff'?). I've seen Buckynat fans being pretty sure that this was a setup. Maybe after Brutasha fiasco Marvel wants comic-canon popular partner for BW and they consider a retcon. Fans constantly ask the Russos about Buckynat. Their responses have been vague so far: maybe yes, maybe no, maybe rain, maybe snow. Stan wants it too.
There are no guarantees really. They've said that the reasons, why they didn't want to get Natasha with Steve in TWS, were a feeling that Natasha would have been there just to be a romantic interest and that there was no time. Civil War comes and what I see? Double standards. These same reasons are totally ignored for Sharon, the romance is rushed, even though there is even less time for it. Before CW I was certain that the Russos would never rush an underdeveloped romance for the sake of kisses. Now I'm not so sure they aren't gonna retcon Buckynat. I don't trust them regarding romantic relationships anymore. I've even got some qualms about Scarlet Vision.

I was thinking about Natasha's hair in IW. I would love it if she had Scarlett's current haircut!

Can't think of another haircut for BW. I love her CW's hair style too much, she was so beautiful with it, couldn't take my eyes of her.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

There was definitely at least one conversation between Bucky and Nat which has been cut from the final version. The Russos themselves told fans on some comic-con that BW and Bucky 'talk'.

Bucky participates in the conversation between Steve and Natasha at the airport.