The Bourne Legacy - Part 1

[Schlosser85]

He also looked like he hadn't slept in a year.

Well, that fit his character, who's like one spilled cup of coffee away from a workplace shooting rampage the whole movie.

 

[Schlosser85]

I almost think the formula itself started to get a little redundant, especially with Legacy.

It's like well, there's this shadow agency called Treadstone, it gets taken down, but OH SNAP there's Blackbriar which is pretty much the same thing, then OH SNAP Norton has yet more shady BS going on!

Also, Conklin/Vosen/Byers are like clones. These intense stressed agents who all look like they never sleep and drink like thousands of cups of coffee a day and whose snap reaction to missions going haywire is to just order everyone and their mother assassinated.

Working at the CIA must be dangerous with all these trigger-happy paranoid lunatics running operations. Strathairn's Vosen especially seemed like, if his coffee wasn't made right, he'd decide someone was trying to kill him and activate like 5 assets from around the globe to hunt the coffee boy down.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Well, the producer just debunked Eh Maybe's rumor, so we can go back to pretended this unwanted sequel doesn't exist.

 

[Schlosser85]

Well, the producer just debunked Eh Maybe's rumor, so we can go back to pretended this unwanted sequel doesn't exist.

I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I say!

 

[Rowsdower!]

Yeah me too! Mayimbe has a 60% chance of being right every time!

 

[TheVileOne]

Matt Damon is right BTW. I read Gilroy's earlier draft for Ultimatum. I think a large part of the reason the sequels are so good is because of Greengrass' style and pacing.

Just for example, dialogue in the early Ultimatum script was really weak. Greengrass really knew how to make everything more effective, lean, and mean.

 

[Lencho01]

I didn't bother to check out the film, but can anyone explain why I keep seeing comments about "chems"?

 

[Silvermoon]

I didn't bother to check out the film, but can anyone explain why I keep seeing comments about "chems"?

Possible spoilers for the film (just tellin' ya)

Spoiler

The program that Renner's character, Aaron Cross, is a part of, "Outcome" (like how Bourne was a part of "Treadstone"), used a dual system of "chemical" enhancements for it's agents that the agents take via pills (referred often as 'chems'). With the blue pills increasing intelligence and the green pills increasing physical aspects. They have to take them every "x" number of hours or else they risk regressing to whatever their previous physical and mental state was prior to beginning the program - something that Aaron indicates is not pleasant to witness, let alone go through, and something he really REALLY wants to avoid given where his IQ was at prior to joining the Outcome program

 

[Lencho01]

Possible spoilers for the film (just tellin' ya)

Spoiler

The program that Renner's character, Aaron Cross, is a part of, "Outcome" (like how Bourne was a part of "Treadstone"), used a dual system of "chemical" enhancements for it's agents that the agents take via pills (referred often as 'chems'). With the blue pills increasing intelligence and the green pills increasing physical aspects. They have to take them every "x" number of hours or else they risk regressing to whatever their previous physical and mental state was prior to beginning the program - something that Aaron indicates is not pleasant to witness, let alone go through, and something he really REALLY wants to avoid given where his IQ was at prior to joining the Outcome program

So, less awesome versions of Bourne and the other agents from his film.

Do the drugs make them more superior than Bourne and co. or just on their level?

 

[flickchick85]

So, less awesome versions of Bourne and the other agents from his film.

Do the drugs make them more superior than Bourne and co. or just on their level?

It's unclear, but it sounded like they were supposed to be superior to Treadstone agents, yet when looking at Bourne's statistics, one of the guys in charge was amazed that he was able to achieve those results without the chems, so I guess Bourne turned out to be an exception. Personally, I felt like Aaron Cross seemed to be at Bourne's level physically and mentally and was equally well-trained, yet he kind of lacked Bourne's natural killer instincts. Bourne was, pardon the pun, born for this kind of work, whereas Aaron just kind of fell into it, and it showed.

 

[Lencho01]

It's unclear, but it sounded like they were supposed to be superior to Treadstone agents, yet when looking at Bourne's statistics, one of the guys in charge was amazed that he was able to achieve those results without the chems, so I guess Bourne turned out to be an exception. Personally, I felt like Aaron Cross seemed to be at Bourne's level physically and mentally and was equally well-trained, yet he kind of lacked Bourne's natural killer instincts. Bourne was, pardon the pun, born for this kind of work, whereas Aaron just kind of fell into it, and it showed.

I thought Bourne and all the guys he dealt with in his films were pretty much all on the same level, but he was the best.

 

[flickchick85]

I thought Bourne and all the guys he dealt with in his films were pretty much all on the same level, but he was the best.

Pretty much, and I think the Outcome chems were supposed to be able to put anyone at a level superior to Treadstone, but Bourne was just as good without them.

 

[Lencho01]

Pretty much, and I think the Outcome chems were supposed to be able to put anyone at a level superior to Treadstone, but Bourne was just as good without them.

Oh, ok. Not sure why they would go backwards to make their agents less awesome. And you make it sound like this Cross dude was one of the dumbest guys around. Makes more sense to start with already smart guys unless that's too dangerous.

Did they at least play that Moby song during the end credits? t:

 

[flickchick85]

Oh, ok. Not sure why they would go backwards to make their agents less awesome. And you make it sound like this Cross dude was one of the dumbest guys around. Makes more sense to start with already smart guys unless that's too dangerous.

Did they at least play that Moby song during the end credits? t:

LOL, of course they did. Yet another new remix of it, too. This version:



Aaron Cross wasn't dumb, for the record, but he DID have a low-level IQ before entering the program and getting the chem enhancement. I think the idea was kind of the same as behind the "super soldier" serum in Captain America - to be able to turn anyone into the perfect soldier (or assassin). And Aaron's goal throughout the movie is to [blackout]"viral off" the meds so that the changes were permanent and he would no longer need the chems. And as you can guess, he succeeds. So he now has a permanent intellectual and physical enhancement, but as I said, it remains unclear as to who would win if he were to have to face Bourne.[/blackout]

I get what they were TRYING to do with Aaron: give us more of a "regular guy" lead than Bourne who was still capable of doing the things Bourne does. Aaron had a much friendlier and outgoing disposition that was supposed to endear him to the audience, and he had a simple drive: survival (since after the Bourne debacle, they were wiping clean all the "exposed" programs...and anyone involved with them). So while I can understand why they did what they did, I just feel like Gilroy didn't execute it particularly well.

 

[TheVileOne]

That's what I hate about Legacy. The chems brought the franchise into sci-fi territory. It was ridiculous. And it makes the Cross character less special and annoying. He's basically a drug addict that needs a fix through most of the movie.

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

That's what I hate about Legacy. The chems brought the franchise into scientific territory. It was ridiculous. And it makes the Cross character less special and annoying. He's basically a drug addict that needs a fix through most of the movie.

Do you really want Cross to be as special as Bourne though? I like that they made Cross like this because this makes Bourne awesome; he still the bestest of the best agents of the program, that he doesn't need drugs to do what he can do.

 

[Lencho01]

LOL, of course they did. Yet another new remix of it, too. This version:



Aaron Cross wasn't dumb, for the record, but he DID have a low-level IQ before entering the program and getting the chem enhancement. I think the idea was kind of the same as behind the "super soldier" serum in Captain America - to be able to turn anyone into the perfect soldier (or assassin). And Aaron's goal throughout the movie is to [blackout]"viral off" the meds so that the changes were permanent and he would no longer need the chems. And as you can guess, he succeeds. So he now has a permanent intellectual and physical enhancement, but as I said, it remains unclear as to who would win if he were to have to face Bourne.[/blackout]

I get what they were TRYING to do with Aaron: give us more of a "regular guy" lead than Bourne who was still capable of doing the things Bourne does. Aaron had a much friendlier and outgoing disposition that was supposed to endear him to the audience, and he had a simple drive: survival (since after the Bourne debacle, they were wiping clean all the "exposed" programs...and anyone involved with them). So while I can understand why they did what they did, I just feel like Gilroy didn't execute it particularly well.

Nice!

Yeah, I understand. Still seems weird to me when they created the precedent of having Bourne and the guys he faced be that highly skilled on their own and then just go the super soldier route. It seems less interesting to me.

I really liked the whole amnesia angle of the first film and seemed sympathetic enough to have the audience support him. The whole "WTF is going on?! Who am I?" thing and all that.

 

[Schlosser85]

The "super pills" in Legacy felt like a lame MacGuffin that got way too much time spent on them. Rachel Weisz has to give this whole exposition monologue about them for like 5 minutes.

I really liked the whole amnesia angle of the first film and seemed sympathetic enough to have the audience support him. The whole "WTF is going on?! Who am I?" thing and all that.

Agreed. The Bourne Identity has the most human interest. He's the most vulnerable there, and his relationship with Marie was well-done. I questioned the wisdom of killing her so fast in Supremacy.

 

[Octoberist]

The Bourne Legacy was a victim of the 'explain everything' style of storytelling that's all the rage these days. Same thing with Amazing Spider-Man.

 

[Schlosser85]

Yup. The previous ones had the good sense to keep things simple and straightforward.

 

[OcStat]

You know, I got this movie for a Christmas present years ago, and still haven't watched it. Not that I don't want to, but, just have never been compelled to. And I make the missus watch enough action movies she doesn't really want to watch, haha.

 

[flickchick85]

The "super pills" in Legacy felt like a lame MacGuffin that got way too much time spent on them. Rachel Weisz has to give this whole exposition monologue about them for like 5 minutes.

This is what I feel like Greengrass doesn't get enough credit for. The dialogue in his installments was fairly minimal because he had the good sense to cut that s*** out, lol. He gave the audience a little credit that we wouldn't need every little detail spoon-fed to us, and Legacy just made it abundantly clear HOW MUCH he streamlined Gilroy's screenplays in the editing/production process.

Liman didn't need to do this as much because the point in that one was that nobody we were following knew much of what was going on, so there wasn't much to tell. But the great break-neck pacing in the two sequels was thanks entirely to Greengrass. When they gave the writer the reins to direct his own words, it exposed just how wordy (meaning exposition filled/dumbed-down) this franchise could have been in less assured directorial hands, imo.

 

[Schlosser85]

I think when there's a writer-director, there's always the danger of him being too in love with directing his own script and no one to rein him in.

 

[flickchick85]

I think when there's a writer-director, there's always the danger of him being too in love with directing his own script and no one to rein him in.

Yeah, which is why a truly great writer-director who knows when to hold back and when to make cuts is a rarity and something to be cherished, haha.

 

[AnneFan]

I was happy with the franchise ending with Ultimatum. That was a solid trilogy. I have slim interest in the Renner continuation films.