The Bush Thread

[Matt]

But is it, "cruel and unusual." Would we allow it to be done to our own citizens?

Look at it this way, after WWII ended, we executed Japanese officers who had waterboarded American prisoners. That to me sets a pretty strong precedent.

Like I said, whether enhanced interrogation is fitting with the constitution is a whole different discussion. I just wanted to establish that waterboarding is hardly torture.

I see your point though, about it not being done to U.S. citizens, but then again, there's the whole debate about whether or not the Constitution protects foreign war criminals.

All that said, I think Lauer's question was unfair. Ask Bush questions about his presidency. Not hindsight rhetoricals. "What if they did it to us?" Really? Come on Lauer, they cut off our citizens' heads on the internet. They did WORSE to us. Ask Bush about that. But don't go with stupid rhetoricals when you have a historic interview in front of you (that's just my beef with Matt Lauer).

 

[Kelly]

There were a few gotcha questions, which Lauer is known for, so I wasn't surprised. One thing about Bush, he doesn't give a ****....if he doesn't want to answer them, he won't. He has that choice now...lol

 

[Matt]

I think Rumsfeld was the one that gave the worst advice IMO....he was a ****ing idiot.

Agreed. Though I'm not sure if Rumsfeld was a truly evil man, or simply a very naive and arrogant one who thought that he could build countries with no resistance.

Say what you want about Bush's presidency, but historically he has had one of the most interesting ever. He and his cabinet is absolutely fascinating to study. From their personalities, to their decisions, to their internal power struggles. Its an interesting presidency to say the least.

 

[Kelly]

I will begin reading his book this weekend, it will be added to my other Presidential memoirs......which have ended up being some of my favorite readings...

 

[Prison Mike]

I have Clinton's memoirs which I bought years ago but I haven't read all of it yet. It's pretty big.

 

[Kelly]

Which one is it? "My Life" ????

It is excellent, one of the best. You should really read it, I need to go back and reread it now with another Democrat in as President to compare the two.

 

[DACrowe]

I've never actually read presidential memoirs. I have read "Dreams From My Father" and parts of "The Audacity of Hope," but those don't really count, as they're pre-presidency.

Which memoirs would you recommend, Kel?

 

[Paradoxium]

My favorite is the post presidency book in 2013

 

[DACrowe]

Bush will be writing a sequel?

I am interested to see what Obama will have to say about how the Republicans were behind closed doors from the first two years...or the next two years most likely, as well. Should be interesting.

 

[Kelly]

I've never actually read presidential memoirs. I have read "Dreams From My Father" and parts of "The Audacity of Hope," but those don't really count, as they're pre-presidency.

Which memoirs would you recommend, Kel?

For pure enjoyment? Bill Clinton's hands down...

But probably the one that I started, and could not put down was Richard Nixon's... "In the Arena: A Memoir of Victory, Defeat and Renewal"

and then read the Frost/Nixon Interviews, I forget the name of this book....

SOOOOOO interesting...

 

[Paradoxium]

Bush will be writing a sequel?

I am interested to see what Obama will have to say about how the Republicans were behind closed doors from the first two years...or the next two years most likely, as well. Should be interesting.

Who is Obama

I am talking about George Soros

 

[Kelly]

B.i.n.g.o.....

 

[Matt Mortem]

This seems like the right thread to say this, so I want to get this off my chest. I don't have a problem with George W Bush as a man. He's a good man and smarter than most people give him credit for. I do however take issue with policies made during his presidency, be it his personal policies or one's made by his advisors or people working under him. That being said, he was my president for 8 years and I respected him as such. I do the same for Barack Obama. He's a good man with policies I don't completely agree with. I guess what I'm trying to say is if we remember that these presidents or policy makers are human beings. The content of their character should not be measured slowly by choices made in office. I'm watching the interview he gave with Oprah and I am reminded that he is just a man.

 

[Kelly]

Good post...

 

[Matt Mortem]

Thanks Kel. I have had a massive transition in my thinking. People are people and should not be judged solely on their political thinking or ideals or decisions.

 

[Prison Mike]

Which one is it? "My Life" ????

It is excellent, one of the best. You should really read it, I need to go back and reread it now with another Democrat in as President to compare the two.

Yeah, it's "My Life". I have it sitting in my book shelf. Maybe I'll read it after I finish Decision Points.

 

[Matt]

For pure enjoyment? Bill Clinton's hands down...

But probably the one that I started, and could not put down was Richard Nixon's... "In the Arena: A Memoir of Victory, Defeat and Renewal"

and then read the Frost/Nixon Interviews, I forget the name of this book....

SOOOOOO interesting...

I love Nixon's memoirs. He remains the most interesting political figure since Truman, IMO.

 

[Matt]

Thanks Kel. I have had a massive transition in my thinking. People are people and should not be judged solely on their political thinking or ideals or decisions.

In their job, however they should. Presidents should not be judged or voted for because you think they are a nice person or want to have a beer with them (that thinking led to eight years of Bush). They should be judged by their policies, political ideals, and decisions. Just as you or I would be judged by our performance in a job. The presidency is a job, and we the electorate are the president's supervisors. Therefore we should judge him solely based on his job performance. Everything else should be saved for judgement of him after the fact. History can judge their personality. In the here and now we should judge policies and politics. Nothing more.

 

[hippie_hunter]

This seems like the right thread to say this, so I want to get this off my chest. I don't have a problem with George W Bush as a man. He's a good man and smarter than most people give him credit for. I do however take issue with policies made during his presidency, be it his personal policies or one's made by his advisors or people working under him. That being said, he was my president for 8 years and I respected him as such. I do the same for Barack Obama. He's a good man with policies I don't completely agree with. I guess what I'm trying to say is if we remember that these presidents or policy makers are human beings. The content of their character should not be measured slowly by choices made in office. I'm watching the interview he gave with Oprah and I am reminded that he is just a man.

 

[Matt Mortem]

In their job, however they should. Presidents should not be judged or voted for because you think they are a nice person or want to have a beer with them (that thinking led to eight years of Bush). They should be judged by their policies, political ideals, and decisions. Just as you or I would be judged by our performance in a job. The presidency is a job, and we the electorate are the president's supervisors. Therefore we should judge him solely based on his job performance. Everything else should be saved for judgement of him after the fact. History can judge their personality. In the here and now we should judge policies and politics. Nothing more.

I agree with you and I never vote based on how cool I think the dude is. I do however think that mauling a persons character because of a political decision is crazy. I disagree with policies made on both sides, but I have decided to take a stance against going bat**** crazy and demonizing a person. I will take a stance against policies I disagree with, but I'm not going to make men into monsters.

 

[Matt]

I agree with you and I never vote based on how cool I think the dude is. I do however think that mauling a persons character because of a political decision is crazy. I disagree with policies made on both sides, but I have decided to take a stance against going bat**** crazy and demonizing a person. I will take a stance against policies I disagree with, but I'm not going to make men into monsters.

Unfortunately personal character and values often tie into political policies.

 

[Matt Mortem]

Unfortunately personal character and values often tie into political policies.

Yes and thats unfortunate. Thats part of what shaped my choice to change my major from Political Science to Film. I didn't want to be defined by my political leanings or anything like that. I honestly think if people and politicians could set aside personal whims in their policy making in favor of whats best for the people we would be better off. We're getting a bit off topic though, so I'll finish off by saying that I stand by what I said above about President Bush.

 

[Matt]

This is an interesting discussion though.

To your point, how can politicians really set aside their personal feelings and values from their policies? Take something as simple as taxes. Obama will argue that some people have an obligation to pay higher taxes to support those with lower incomes where as George Bush would argue that the government should not force charity on people and that if you want to have more you should earn it, not look to those who are better off for state sanctioned hand outs.

Who is right and who is wrong? All comes down to your own morality and personal values.

Was it right to invade Iraq in the name of freeing people from a dictator or is freedom valueless unless earned and our soldiers should not be put in danger for the freedom of others? Again, it comes down to personal values.

Character and morality is a factor in politics.

 

[Excel]

I got a kick out of this (memory is foggy but I think it went like this"

"They asked will you authorize waterboarding, and I responded "HELL YES!"

 

[Kelly]

I love Nixon's memoirs. He remains the most interesting political figure since Truman, IMO.

I would venture to say is in my top 3 as the most interesting studies in Politics....

Here is a man who was a genius, unbelievable political mind......BUT, his trust in people, or lack thereof was his downfall. Almost a Julius Caesar scenario...

The most intriguing story I have read in all my years of studying political science.