The Communism Thread

[A&W]

well me and handsome rob unintentionally got sidetracked in the environmental thread to the issue of communism. Instead of waiting for a moderator to tell us to get back on topic I decided to start a new thread and move a couple posts here.

 

[A&W]

1. Communism doesn't work.

that's not true. a stupid communist plan wouldn't work. NASA works. Public schools work. Social Security works. Medicare works. Garbage pick up works. public roads work. Public transportation works. The public option in health care would work. Universal health care does work in other countries. Publicly owned colleges work. The recycling center down the block works. The bail out worked.

yeah you can point to short comings in these but that is just like you said, the result of imperfect humans. NO corporation gets everything perfect all the time either.

2. The way to make the economy very efficient cannot by definition involve heavy regulation. If you believe otherwise, I suspect you've never worked in a business environment in any sort of white collar capacity.

hmmm, My economics professor disagrees. He believes it all comes down to whether it's good regulation or bad regulation.

To say you suspect I've never done this or that is stupid. There are plenty of people who have worked in business environments who agree with me. Many of them don't want the regulations because they are aimed at helping the overall economy and most investors only want to help themselves.

3. Universal health care is not cost-effective.

tell that to all the people who have better, yet cheaper health care than we do. I don't really want a specific debate on universal health care at the moment, but it has been proven in other countries that if doen right it can work. If done wrong? Then yeah it wont work.

1. Those parts of humanity (the desire to make money and the desire to do better to make more money) do not die . . . well, they do die, but only in the communist's mental fantasy-world. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" falls apart when people realize that there's no reason for them to work hard in a communist system. As a result, everyone suffers. That's reality.

I somewhat agree with this, which is why technology and social reforms have to come a long way before we could ever have a completely communist world. We have to reform our "public schools " so that we install the values of hard work into future generations. and we have to get technology up to par to take care of all the meaningless and unfullfilling work.

If you eliminate money, then you eliminate the desire for more money. If wealth is unlimited than it becomes worthless. The acumulation of wealth is worthless if you don't need wealth to get what you want. It is possible that this could be what the world is like a hundred or two hunrdred years from now. Hell if automated machines are building the roads and the houses and we all got replicators built by other replicators and free health care and things like slavery are illegal, than what are people going to need money for?

I'm not guranteeing that money would be obsolete, but it is possible. It will be determined by future generations really. I'm just saying the possiblities are endless when it comes to just about anything. Whether it's technology, phychology, economics, space travel ect. The possiblities are really endless as far as me and you are concerned and if future economists can figure out details that me and you can't, than they might be able to create a utopian economy.

2

. See what I said above about heavy regulation. Hey, there's even an article in the Wall Street Journal today about the oppressive costs that Sarbanes-Oxley has put on business . . . so much so that Congress may pass a law exempting smaller corporations from having to deal with all of it. And do you know what SarbOx is? Moar regulation!

so... even if Sarbox sucks that doesn't mean all regulation sucks. Hell I'm pretty damn grateful for that rescent minimum wage hike. You know what sucks about my insurance I get through work though? They are legally allowed to deny you based on pre existing conditions! We need some regulation right about now!! How about some energy efficency standards? I'm no expert on cap and trade so I dont' want to try and debate it because I don't like talking out of my ass, but obviously some heavy regulation could help us get off of oil, assuming the regulation is well thought out with the help of economists.

you know what else is funny about my job? We work together as a group to make the group as efficent as possible. Imgaine if we all worked alone on being as independently efficent as we could be? Overall my company would be a lot less efficent! That's the benefit of working together as a group under guided direction.

3. There is a lot to complain about when it comes to our roads systems. Good teachers like I'm sure Kel is aside, our public school students are behind those of a lot of other countries.

Is china one of them? Are you suggesting that we close our public schools? Do you think we should have publicly run schools? I understand there is much room for improvement, but them being run by the government is not the problem. Out of all those countries who's students are doing better than ours how many come from schools run by the government?

Our Medicare is running at an unbelievable deficit--in the trillions and trillions of dollars.

because of capitalists charging more and more for medications and procedures. The costs are sky rocketing. we need regulations telling them you just can't do it! You can't charge an arm and a leg to fix a toe nail anymore. Good example!

As for NASA . . . well, they do a lot of contracting with (evil!) corporations to build their equipment.

As I was saying we have a balance between communism and capitalism in the U.S. and that is how it should be for the time being.

I oppose communism. I know exactly what it is (that's why I oppose it!).

At the moment I'm not denying that you know what communism is. In my ideology class I did learn that according to rescent polls the vast majority of those who oppose communism can not define it. I don't know the exact number.

Part of this is because of the almost faith guided religous hatred for it that has risen in america during the last century. Remember what Raegen said about medicare decades ago? Isn't my grandpa supposed to be telling me about the good old days when men were free by now? Oh wait, my grandpa would be either dead or homeless if not for that evil medicare. yeah Marx was an atheist. so what? that doesn't justify opposing communism. I'm not saying that's why you oppose it, but it was a big factor in Americans becoming so anti-communism. Most even consider communism an atheist ideology, even though it's not.

I'm not opposed to communism or capitalism. Why do we care which "ism" something falls into? All that matter is results! I don't care what you call it. I'm not going to judge a program with preconceived notions about big government or small government. I will independently judge each program by itself without bias in favor of or against communism or capitalism. I will approach it with an open mind. There are those with a natural built in biased against the "c" word as well as for it. Those are called partisan hacks

And seeing as the stock market went real sour during this recession, it's a pretty good thing for social security. Imagine if we had Bush's plan for privatization in place. All those people would have had nothing to live off. communism once again saved the day.

 

[A&W]

I was wondering just to make our debates easier to understand and make sure were on the same page, what exactly do you think Communism and Socialism are?

I am curious what you think about my previous post. I really tried to word it in a way to get you to look at it with an open mind so when you look at things in the future you wont have a biased in favor of or opposed to big government or small government. That really is the best way to assess things.

 

[Venom'sDad]

I just want to say, we were living in a land of Laws… a Constitutional Republic, at one time was govern by the people and in control of our destiny. IMHO, the greatest form of government in the History of Man. When we took that for granted, we as a nation became vulnerable to the very situation we are facing… which is now becoming difficult to stop its momentum. Many were trying to escape what we today are rushing head on to. Those very people set up a document, as guidance, to prevent their descendants from reverting back from which they came. Today, not just in the USA, but globally; but we have reverted back to the Old World Order… there’s nothing new about it.
　
May the persecutions begin.

 

[[A]]

Long live capitalism.

 

[A&W]

Long live capitalism.

Isn't that kind of biased?

 

[A&W]

I just want to say, we were living in a land of Laws… a Constitutional Republic, at one time was govern by the people and in control of our destiny. IMHO, the greatest form of government in the History of Man. When we took that for granted, we as a nation became vulnerable to the very situation we are facing… which is now becoming difficult to stop its momentum. Many were trying to escape what we today are rushing head on to. Those very people set up a document, as guidance, to prevent their descendants from reverting back from which they came. Today, not just in the USA, but globally; but we have reverted back to the Old World Order… there’s nothing new about it.
　
May the persecutions begin.

Early liberals, libertarians, had excellent reason for opposing big government back in the day. They also had excellent reason for staying with the times and not being stuck in the past when they started moving towards welfare liberalism and socialism. business became big business and instead of being oppressed by their government people were then being opressed by big business.

If you take away the cops, is everybody in the neighborhood just going to play nice or is there going to be chaos? Do we really know how to do things better if the government were to just get out of the way? Or does society need rules to follow and a government to enforce them?

You take away regulation, well good regulation, and people will just walk all over each other. Liberals are often accused of having too much faith in humanity, and often times they do, but the conservatives are equally guilty of that.

 

[Venom'sDad]

A&W, you are missing it. We as a nation has taken ours freedoms, rights, and form of government for granted… in favor for a more controlling centralize government. The very embodiment this country was founded against. The citizenry of this country has either forgotten that or have become ignorant of that fact.

Like the NFL(to put it simply) we are 50 sovereign states, with the President acting as commissioner, to manager the affairs of the Nation(league)… not Dictate it. Each state with its own constitution, social laws, regulation, and taxation, to ensure growth and prosperity not only for its own state sovereignty & citizenry; but, the Union as a whole. UNION: 50 act as 1. This is the reason the United States is the only nation in the world, where a Governor of a state or province can negotiate business and treaties with foreign entities… they are their own sovereign government.

The Federal Government, by law, are only allowed to manage the Union for the well-being of the States… not dictate to the states. We are willingly allowing the Fed to dictate to the state. That is a Centralizing Government; which effectively remove the right of self-governing from the sovereign states and the people. A hand few controls the masses… and the Fed and Corporate are nothing more than fingers of the same hand. Politician pass legislation to fund their business interest; which is Unconstitutional and has nothing to do with whether you are a communist, fascist, socialist, or capitalist. Business is business; all forms of government financially enslave their people. Capitalist allow you the freedom to choose to either be in control of your finances or be enslave by it.

 

[A&W]

A&W, you are missing it. We as a nation has taken ours freedoms, rights, and form of government for granted… in favor for a more controlling centralize government. The very embodiment this country was founded against. The citizenry of this country has either forgotten that or have become ignorant of that fact.

Like the NFL(to put it simply) we are 50 sovereign states, with the President acting as commissioner, to manager the affairs of the Nation(league)… not Dictate it. Each state with its own constitution, social laws, regulation, and taxation, to ensure growth and prosperity not only for its own state sovereignty & citizenry; but, the Union as a whole. UNION: 50 act as 1. This is the reason the United States is the only nation in the world, where a Governor of a state or province can negotiate business and treaties with foreign entities… they are their own sovereign government.

The Federal Government, by law, are only allowed to manage the Union for the well-being of the States… not dictate to the states. We are willingly allowing the Fed to dictate to the state. That is a Centralizing Government; which effectively remove the right of self-governing from the sovereign states and the people. A hand few controls the masses… and the Fed and Corporate are nothing more than fingers of the same hand. Politician pass legislation to fund their business interest; which is Unconstitutional and has nothing to do with whether you are a communist, fascist, socialist, or capitalist. Business is business; all forms of government financially enslave their people..

I'm not missing it at all. I'm not obligated to agree with the founding fathers. This country was also founded and expanded based on manifest destiny. Does that mean we should invade countries and steal their land?
Do black people need to go back to being slaves just so the country can be more like what the founding fathers created?

Times change.

Capitalist allow you the freedom to choose to either be in control of your finances or be enslave by it.

It also allows you to enslave others. That is one status quo I don't want to maintain. I understand that there isn't much that can successfully be done about it next week.

Yes I often times support the federal government overiding the states, but so what? there is nothing wrong with that. If the law is good, than the law is good. All there is to it.

There is nothing immoral about the federal government passing laws. If a certain state is doing something I don't like, than it is my right to support the federal government stepping in.

 

[Excel]

There are benefits and problems to capitalist societies. They force mindsets that are greedy and materialistic, yet it also drives progess in advancements for technology, ect. All we need is for things to be a bit more balanced with less UBER RICH and less uber poor.

Other than that I think its fine. Opinions such as "everyone should have equal work" or whatever do not work, because other people are lazier than others.

 

[Kelly]

*gets popcorn and Coke Zero*

Sits back to relax and mod the thread....



*comfortable sigh*



oh, subscribed.....*smiles*


Continue....please....don't mind me.

 

[Handsome Rob]

It also allows you to enslave others. That is one status quo I don't want to maintain. I understand that there isn't much that can successfully be done about it next week.

Communism IS slavery.

Yes I often times support the federal government overiding the states, but so what? there is nothing wrong with that. If the law is good, than the law is good. All there is to it.

There is nothing immoral about the federal government passing laws. If a certain state is doing something I don't like, than it is my right to support the federal government stepping in.

This is why I'm not going to spend time "debating" communism with you. Our federal government is limited. It exists only to serve us, and not we it. Our Founders recognized the wisdom of a limited federal government. That is why the states have the power they do. Your omnipotent federal government doesn't exist . . . not yet, anyway.

Your nightmarish, communist dystopia would have an all-powerful government dictating every aspect of our lives. Our country would be filled with people who are stripped of their liberty. They could only pursue the happiness that the state sees as serving "the people." And, if they don't play along--if they believe that their own inalienable rights supercede that of the state--then the state may just decide to deprive them of their lives. After all, sacrifices must sometimes be made to maintain the status quo, right?

You accuse liberals and conservatives of having too much faith in humanity? Well, I don't have faith in humanity when it has absolute power . . . and the halls of power are populated by people. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and a federal government with absolute power (which is what you propose, since any law--any power--you want them to have you would give to them) is something I would never want to live under.

Blacks never deserved to be on Southern plantations, and no American ever deserves to be a slave on the government plantation.

 

[Excel]

Capitalism forces everything to go big, so only a select few run the show. Thats problem. More localization and less globalization would help a lot with unemployment, energy, and all that shiz.

 

[A&W]

Communism IS slavery.

I suggest you read Karl Marx's argumentation that specifically talks about slavery and how capitalism enslaves so many, often times against their will. I'll dig up the name of it if your interested.

But no communism is not slavery. Being free to choose what work you do without financial pressure couldn't be more opposite of slavery. It really couldn't. with money problems out of the way you are much freeer to choose to do whatever you want. Want to be a painter? Go ahead. Want to play music, go for it!

In today's world you have to put food in your stomach, today, right now! And to do it, you have to do what they say!

This is why I'm not going to spend time "debating" communism with you. Our federal government is limited. It exists only to serve us, and not we it. Our Founders recognized the wisdom of a limited federal government. That is why the states have the power they do. Your omnipotent federal government doesn't exist . . . not yet, anyway.

Your nightmarish, communist dystopia would have an all-powerful government dictating every aspect of our lives. Our country would be filled with people who are stripped of their liberty. They could only pursue the happiness that the state sees as serving "the people." And, if they don't play along--if they believe that their own inalienable rights supercede that of the state--then the state may just decide to deprive them of their lives. After all, sacrifices must sometimes be made to maintain the status quo, right?

You accuse liberals and conservatives of having too much faith in humanity? Well, I don't have faith in humanity when it has absolute power . . . and the halls of power are populated by people. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and a federal government with absolute power (which is what you propose, since any law--any power--you want them to have you would give to them) is something I would never want to live under.

Blacks never deserved to be on Southern plantations, and no American ever deserves to be a slave on the government plantation.

careful there, keep talking about the elimination of classes and people are going to accuse you of being a communist You aren't advocating equality are you? Not the anti-communist
I've been waiting all day for you to respond to the other post and you pick this one!!!!

anyways no you don't know what communism is.

not that this sums it up but a dictatorship is the opposite of communism. That is why China is not a truly communist state. Communism involves the public, the people, owning and running the means of distributing good and services, including most importantly the government itself. A dictator or a monarchy with absolute power running the government is no different from a group of people who own a private company in this respect. I'm not comparing wealthy business owners to evil dictators. I'm saying in respect to what communism is supposed to be, power in the hands of the few or the one, is one big no no whether it's owning a corporation or running a country. It should be equally owned by all. Communism without democracy is like chocolate milk without chocolate.

But nonetheless hearing you talk about it sounds like the priest who was talking about Marxists at the baptism I had to go to a week ago.

I said before that people too often view this the way religious people view evolution and the bible. You went all crazy on me. Bring it down to reality. Were not proposing that we tell you what kind of underwear your allowed to wear. Were not proposing that you be brainwashed and forced to worship the state. No sacricifices.

With communism a painter can paint what the painter wants to paint instead of what his boss tells him to paint. Capitalism can be just as counter productive to freedom as communism is. Every situation is different. communism is not the enemy and it's not the solution. IT'S WHAT YOU DO WITH IT!!!!!!! We don't believe in telling you what to do all day. We want to free you from capitalism so you can tell yourself what to do all day. If pursuing a certain goal is going to bring you happiness and fullfillment, than you should go do it so long as your not hurting anybody.

Want to go hike inthe woods for a month? go ahead. but wait, if you don't go earn money when you get back you will have defaulted on your house payments, your car payments ect.. I'm not talking about slavery. I'm talking about freedom.

 

[A&W]

There are benefits and problems to capitalist societies. They force mindsets that are greedy and materialistic, yet it also drives progess in advancements for technology, ect. All we need is for things to be a bit more balanced with less UBER RICH and less uber poor.

Other than that I think its fine. Opinions such as "everyone should have equal work" or whatever do not work, because other people are lazier than others.

[/QUOTE]I agree with this.

 

[A&W]

In Iran the oil is owned by the people. If you buy oil from Iran, your not buying it from a corporation. Your buying it from the citizens.

That is communism. Does that really sound so awful? Does that really sound like a lack of freedom? Yeah Iran does many things I disagree with, but this is not one of them.

could somebody explain to me how that is slavery? I mean without going off and painting a fictional scenario that is out of this world? Tell me how the citizens owning the oil in Iran is slavery. Be specific.

 

[The Overlord]

In Iran the oil is owned by the people. If you buy oil from Iran, your not buying it from a corporation. Your buying it from the citizens.

That is communism. Does that really sound so awful? Does that really sound like a lack of freedom? Yeah Iran does many things I disagree with, but this is not one of them.

could somebody explain to me how that is slavery? I mean without going off and painting a fictional scenario that is out of this world? Tell me how the citizens owning the oil in Iran is slavery. Be specific.

But considering that Iran is a dictatorship, does a system like Iran's oil system only work in a dictatorship? Why does it seem like these systems only work in undemocratically societies?

If I'm too cynical to believe in Objectivism, then I'm too cynical to believe in Communism, greed is as much part of humanity as anything else.

Communism is an idealized system that doesn't account for human psychological, it spends far too much time with historical materialism and not enough on psychological.

The difference between capitalism and communism is simple, with capitalism you get screwed by corporations with communism you get screwed by the government, either you get screwed. I may like capitalism somewhat better because you have a wider choice of of who gets to screw you.

You can't rely on organizations for your well being, organizations breed power and power corrupts. Unions, corporations, the government, none of them are truly trust worthy.

I suggest you read Karl Marx's argumentation that specifically talks about slavery and how capitalism enslaves so many, often times against their will. I'll dig up the name of it if your interested.

But no communism is not slavery. Being free to choose what work you do without financial pressure couldn't be more opposite of slavery. It really couldn't. with money problems out of the way you are much freeer to choose to do whatever you want. Want to be a painter? Go ahead. Want to play music, go for it!

In today's world you have to put food in your stomach, today, right now! And to do it, you have to do what they say!



careful there, keep talking about the elimination of classes and people are going to accuse you of being a communist You aren't advocating equality are you? Not the anti-communist
I've been waiting all day for you to respond to the other post and you pick this one!!!!

anyways no you don't know what communism is.

not that this sums it up but a dictatorship is the opposite of communism. That is why China is not a truly communist state. Communism involves the public, the people, owning and running the means of distributing good and services, including most importantly the government itself. A dictator or a monarchy with absolute power running the government is no different from a group of people who own a private company in this respect. I'm not comparing wealthy business owners to evil dictators. I'm saying in respect to what communism is supposed to be, power in the hands of the few or the one, is one big no no whether it's owning a corporation or running a country. It should be equally owned by all. Communism without democracy is like chocolate milk without chocolate.

But nonetheless hearing you talk about it sounds like the priest who was talking about Marxists at the baptism I had to go to a week ago.

I said before that people too often view this the way religious people view evolution and the bible. You went all crazy on me. Bring it down to reality. Were not proposing that we tell you what kind of underwear your allowed to wear. Were not proposing that you be brainwashed and forced to worship the state. No sacricifices.

With communism a painter can paint what the painter wants to paint instead of what his boss tells him to paint. Capitalism can be just as counter productive to freedom as communism is. Every situation is different. communism is not the enemy and it's not the solution. IT'S WHAT YOU DO WITH IT!!!!!!! We don't believe in telling you what to do all day. We want to free you from capitalism so you can tell yourself what to do all day. If pursuing a certain goal is going to bring you happiness and fullfillment, than you should go do it so long as your not hurting anybody.

Want to go hike inthe woods for a month? go ahead. but wait, if you don't go earn money when you get back you will have defaulted on your house payments, your car payments ect.. I'm not talking about slavery. I'm talking about freedom.

Except Marx did call for a dictatorship of the proletariat, which despite its nice intentions, ultimately becomes corrupted because it creates an all powerful organization to administer things. How else do explain what happened Russia and China?

Communism works in theory, but not in practice.

 

[Handsome Rob]

I suggest you read Karl Marx's argumentation that specifically talks about slavery and how capitalism enslaves so many, often times against their will. I'll dig up the name of it if your interested.

But no communism is not slavery. Being free to choose what work you do without financial pressure couldn't be more opposite of slavery. It really couldn't. with money problems out of the way you are much freeer to choose to do whatever you want. Want to be a painter? Go ahead. Want to play music, go for it!

In today's world you have to put food in your stomach, today, right now! And to do it, you have to do what they say!

I chose my profession in this "evil" capitalist system. I chose it knowing that I sometimes have to work overtime. I chose it knowing that I would be working at a desk most of the time. If I want to make more money doing something besides my job, I can pick up some clients on the side--I'm going to do this next year. If I decide to pick up and move, I can get a job in another town. I already have freedom in my career.

careful there, keep talking about the elimination of classes and people are going to accuse you of being a communist You aren't advocating equality are you? Not the anti-communist

I advocate the government treating everyone equally, not making everyone equal. That's the difference between you and I, and it's a huge difference.

Communism involves the public, the people, owning and running the means of distributing good and services, including most importantly the government itself.

Were not proposing that we tell you what kind of underwear your allowed to wear. Were not proposing that you be brainwashed and forced to worship the state. No sacricifices.

That's what the promise is. The reality, however, will be something else entirely. I recommend that you read "Animal Farm," by George Orwell.

With communism a painter can paint what the painter wants to paint instead of what his boss tells him to paint. Capitalism can be just as counter productive to freedom as communism is. Every situation is different. communism is not the enemy and it's not the solution. IT'S WHAT YOU DO WITH IT!!!!!!! We don't believe in telling you what to do all day. We want to free you from capitalism so you can tell yourself what to do all day. If pursuing a certain goal is going to bring you happiness and fullfillment, than you should go do it so long as your not hurting anybody.

Want to go hike inthe woods for a month? go ahead. but wait, if you don't go earn money when you get back you will have defaulted on your house payments, your car payments ect.. I'm not talking about slavery. I'm talking about freedom.

I love this part. What if everyone decides to go hiking in the woods for a month? What happens to productivity then? What happens to society then? Hey, maybe all the ER docs in an area get together and decide they want to go hike for a month. They could do that! Freedom!

But wait . . . what about patients in the emergency room? What happens when the car accident victim arrives to find that there's no one who can operate on him? As he bleeds out in Trauma I, he can praise the almighty communist system that allowed all of the docs the freedom to go hiking for a month.

 

[A&W]

But considering that Iran is a dictatorship, does a system like Iran's oil system only work in a dictatorship?

Iran is not a dictatorship actually. It's not a democracy but it's not a dictatorship either. I disagree with many things Iran does, which is why I asked people to be specific about the program. I knew ahead of time that somebody would instead change the subject to something else about Iran. Still waiting for somebody to explain how the example I gave was slavery. Or well bring it back to the U.S. How is the postal service slavery? How is NASA slavery? How is public education slavery? Every country has systems like this. Why'd you change the subject to dictatorships? I was talking about publicly owned oil.

Why does it seem like these systems only work in undemocratically societies?

we have systems like that in the United States too. I gave plenty of examples.

Communism is an idealized system that doesn't account for human psychological, it spends far too much time with historical materialism and not enough on psychological.

That's not true either. Really that could come down to the individual communists views. I believe that in order for us to have a completely communist economy, at the least the way I envision it, we must first advance our phychology and reform our society. Most communist philosophers I have read up on, are very obsessed with phychology and phycohlogical barriers preventing people from getting ahead in life. Yes they focus more on economic barriers and lack of opportunity, but they don't neglect phychology by any means.

The difference between capitalism and communism is simple, with capitalism you get screwed by corporations with communism you get screwed by the government, either you get screwed. I may like capitalism somewhat better because you have a wider choice of of who gets to screw you.

even with capitalism the government can still screw you. More so, because the wealthy can corrupt the government.

Here are a few examples of the United States committing atrocities all while being a capitalist society. Roosevelt and Japanese interment. Slavery, segregation, the treatment of women. Stealing this land from the natives. All of these examples are strictly forbidden by the communist ideology, as it is considered wrong to discriminate. Communism calls for the abolishment of classes. no more I'm better cause I'm white, or I'm better cause I'm a man, or because I'm rich, or I have royalty in my blood. Communism is about eliminating all of that!!!!

A government in a capitalist society can screw people over just as well. It's not limited to one kind of country. That's why it's ridiculous to stereotype it as a communist thing.

Except Marx did call for a dictatorship of the proletariat, which despite its nice intentions, ultimately becomes corrupted because it creates an all powerful organization to administer things. How else do explain what happened Russia and China?

do you know what the proletariat is? The people. He didn't literally mean a dictatorship. And he did not want a dictatorship. You are referring to his theory of history. He merely believed that a dictatorship of the proltariat would be the consequence of the rich screwing over everybody else. And personally I do not hope for a seizing of the state like that. I prefer a gradual move towards communism, being very careful, taking it one step at a time. Allowing time for capitalism to promote competition among inventors and so on.

Communism works in theory, but not in practice.[/QUOTEI have already given plenty of examples of it working in the real world.

 

[A&W]

I chose my profession in this "evil" capitalist system. I chose it knowing that I sometimes have to work overtime. I chose it knowing that I would be working at a desk most of the time. If I want to make more money doing something besides my job, I can pick up some clients on the side--I'm going to do this next year. If I decide to pick up and move, I can get a job in another town. I already have freedom in my career.

not true!! That's a lie!!! just kidding.

Under the ideal communist society, I would be working too, sometimes overtime. If I wanted to go to another town and do it. I'd be able to. If I wanted to quit. I'd be able to.

I advocate the government treating everyone equally, not making everyone equal. That's the difference between you and I, and it's a huge difference.

A difference I'm proud of.

That's what the promise is. The reality, however, will be something else entirely. I recommend that you read "Animal Farm," by George Orwell.

This is what I mean when I say you went all crazy on me. This is what it sounds like when Sarah Palin talks about health care reform bringing up death panels and everything. You are stereotyping communists. Is it possible that communism could be what you describe? Yeah if that's what the people make it. I'm not advocating that. You should find yourself somebody who is and argue with them about it. Because all this absolute power talk? Your barking up the wrong tree.

I love this part. What if everyone decides to go hiking in the woods for a month? What happens to productivity then?

Yeah like that's gonna happen Besides in the future productivity will be handled by automated machines anyways. I think that is a very important part of building an economy where people no longer work for money, but instead work for personal happiness or to better those around them.

But wait . . . what about patients in the emergency room? What happens when the car accident victim arrives to find that there's no one who can operate on him? As he bleeds out in Trauma I, he can praise the almighty communist system that allowed all of the docs the freedom to go hiking for a month.

But wait, nobody is suggesting that we raise all of our children to grow up to be selfish bastards who let people die on the floor. Some people who are raised properly don't want to be lazy bums their whole life. They want to contribute. Some of those people WANT the oppotunity to treat sick patients, and they don't want to lose that option of helping people. That is why whoever is highest up in the chain of command at the hospital will get to decide who gets vacation time when and where. People will choose to abide by the rule because they don't want to lose the option of coming back to work. Even though they don't need money, people will still care about these things if society is reformed properly. If society is not reformed properly? Well then hopefully this communist society doesn't come into play.

Think about this for a second. People who support democracy can have very differing views about things. Same thing goes for communism. Communism can come in many different forms. That is why it is so stupid to be against it. It's about as stupid as stereotyping an entire race of people.

And you really need to drop the connection between communism and dictatorships. It's dishonest, offensive, and insulting. Hell when this capitalist country was formed the only people who could vote were rich white men who owned land. That is a lot closer to a dictatorship than what we have today. A small few controlling the masses. Well it's more of a monarchy than a dictatorship, but still it can happen in a capitalist society just as easily as a communist society. And as I said. When it comes to communism, the most important thing about equality, is equal right to vote. Democracy is the most important ingredient in communism. And I really think you should refute the points made in the second post. NOt all of it because it's kind of long but certain key points, you should explain.

 

[The Overlord]

Iran is not a dictatorship actually. It's not a democracy but it's not a dictatorship either. I disagree with many things Iran does, which is why I asked people to be specific about the program. I knew ahead of time that somebody would instead change the subject to something else about Iran.

I think Human Rights would take issue with Iran a Democracy, there is more to a democracy then just an election (plus people thought the last election was rigged) if there isn't a code rights that the government respects, its not a Democracy, at best its mob rule and at worst its a dictatorship.

we have systems like that in the United States too. I gave plenty of examples.

Not a massive society level though.

That's not true either. Really that could come down to the individual communists views. I believe that in order for us to have a completely communist economy, at the least the way I envision it, we must first advance our phychology and reform our society.

What makes your vision of communism better then any other communist who has a different perspective?

even with capitalism the government can still screw you. More so, because the wealthy can corrupt the government.

More so then in Stalin's USSR or North Korea?

do you know what the proletariat is? The people. He didn't literally mean a dictatorship. And he did not want a dictatorship. You are referring to his theory of history. He merely believed that a dictatorship of the proltariat would be the consequence of the rich screwing over everybody else. And personally I do not hope for a seizing of the state like that. I prefer a gradual move towards communism, being very careful, taking it one step at a time. Allowing time for capitalism to promote competition among inventors and so on.

I'm not an idiot, I know what a proletariat is, but that's irrelevant, a dictatorship of the proletariat would have to be run by professional administrators and they can be corrupted by the power. You can't just take a garbage man and slap a General's uniform on him and aspect him to do a good job. Stalin was able to seize power in the USSR because of his skills as an administrator and then he could have anyone he didn't like be declared a counter revolutionary, so how do you stop that happening?

But Marx's theory of history is what the problem is here. He came up with a theory of historical materialism

Communism works in theory, but not in practice.[/QUOTEI have already given plenty of examples of it working in the real world.

Then how do you explain what happened in the USSR and North Korea?

You haven't given any examples of this working on a society level.

 

[DACrowe]

Can capitalism work, just with mediated government regulation? As you said many government programs work and in the 20th century made the lives of our citizens exponentially better, but I do not think we need to revert to communism. If you are arguing we should have limited socialism (which seems to be more the point) there is some truth in that as we have been progressing like that since FDR. We are still one of the most free markets on earth, sometimes to our own detriment (coughhealthcarecough) and incredibly individualistic and that has helped make us the great innovator.

But as much as libertarians and corporate Republicans bemoan medicare, social security, food regulation, minimum wage, national parks and the post office--to name only a few--these programs have greatly benefited the lives of hundreds of millions of Americans.

For the record, I do not think the idealistic or utopian communist society would work. Because like every other institution in the world, it is run by people who can be corrupted. People in power without oversight can pretty much do whatever they want (look at the Fed or Goldman Sachs for that. Or the Patriot Act). Giving the government control of everything stifles growth, stifles innovation and likely leads to an authoratative regime as history shows time and again.

With that said, it is equally as naive to say "no government intervention" and "let the market decide" and pretend free market lassiez-faire is the answer to our world's problems. 2008 was a great to show what limited deregulation would do and yet the libertarians want to basically destroy government and regulation from the equation completely.

 

[A&W]

I think Human Rights would take issue with Iran a Democracy, there is more to a democracy then just an election (plus people thought the last election was rigged) if there isn't a code rights that the government respects, its not a Democracy, at best its mob rule and at worst its a dictatorship.

I agree with this. I wish Iran did have a democracy. If the opposition candidate had made it in, and I believed he was sincere in his efforst to democratize Iran, I'd have given my life to take out the supreme leader with the hope that somebody more democratic would take his place.

Not a massive society level though.

correct

What makes your vision of communism better then any other communist who has a different perspective?

well that is all a matter of opinion. what I'm trying to say is that not all communist views are the same, which is why I feel that all this dictator talk is irrelevant as to whether one should oppose communism as a whole. It all comes down to whether or not people make it into a dictatorship. It has nothing to do with whether one supports capitalism or communism.

More so then in Stalin's USSR or North Korea?

Neither one of us know much about North Korea. It's surrounded in secrecy.

I'm not an idiot, I know what a proletariat is, but that's irrelevant, a dictatorship of the proletariat would have to be run by professional administrators and they can be corrupted by the power. You just take a garbage man and slap a General's uniform on him and aspect him to do a good job. Stalin was able to seize power in the USSR because of his skills as an administrator and then he could have anyone he didn't like be declared a counter revolutionary, so how do you stop that happening?

the same way you would in a capitlaist society. With a democratic constitution.

But Marx's theory of history is what the problem is here. He came up with a theory of historical materialism

Marx was a brilliant man, but his theory of history did not unfold as he predicted it would.

Then how do you explain what happened in the USSR and North Korea?

what happened does not negate the examples I have given of communism working. And no a dictator is not communist because the people don't have equal access to power. Remember EQUAL is an important part of communism.

You haven't given any examples of this working on a society level.

Because it can't work on a massive scale encompassing the entire economy in today's world. Just like we can't go to other solar systems yet. That doesn't mean that as we become more advanced we wont be able to in the future.

It is my opinion that all attempts to have a completely communist society have failed. There is too much needed labour that only gets done either because people need a paycheck, or because they are forced to do it like slaves. That is why complete communism on a massive scale will either fail economically or they will force people to do it like slaves, and then it's no longer communism anymore.

But someday technology will change that. some day all the roards, houses, products, assemby lines, will all be handled by machines. I honestly do believe that one day we will have replicators like they have on star trek as well. Our houses will collect solar energy, not just on the roof, but even our siding will collect it and feed it back into the grid. Energy will be limitless. Homes would be available for everybody. The government wont have to be buried in paperwork making sure your local grocery store has what you need, because an automated system will keep the shelves stocked.

some jobs would still require human effort of course. let people pick a career they are passionate about. I think that with technology getting most of the labour out of the way, and education reforms to install the value of hard work, there will be enough people who want to work to fill those jobs.

 

[Franklin Richards]

The NFL does have revenue sharing.


Sorry. Had to inject that from earlier.

 

[A&W]

eventually it's going to be cheaper for capitalists to have machines perform their work anyways, and us humans would be out of a job. In order for the economy to survive that you would absolutely need some kind of communism in place.