The Curious Case of Spider-Man & Hulk Rights (Or Keep Hope Alive That the Rights Will Revert)

[SirStrangefolk]

There are just so many things I would've tried to do if I were Sony before taking the road they did...

Option #1 would've been to have an alternate Spider-Man series that is clearly distinct from the MCU one. If they did a Spider-Man 2099 movie series with Miguel in a cyberpunk aesthetic, they could've had their own Spider-Man movie series that didn't step on the toes of the MCU Spider-Man and is distinct enough to not confuse audiences. They could've used the 2099 versions of other characters from the comics like Goblin 2099 and Venom 2099 and even created new 2099 counterparts if they wished.

Option #2, if they legally couldn't use a character called "Spider-Man" and Miguel was not an option, they could've had a movie series where "Ghost Spider", "Silk", or "Araña" is the resident Spider-Person instead. That way they would've at least had had someone to go up against all their villains and anti-heroes like Venom and Morbius.

Option #3, if they legally couldn't use any Spider-People they still could've started building their universe by including more heroic characters. Remember how the MCU started by introducing 4 heroes in their own movies (Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, Captain America) and then teaming them up for Avengers? What if Sony had started with Silver Sable, Prowler, Puma, and Rocket Racer with each movie having those characters becoming heroes after initially being on the wrong path, and then teamed them up for the Outlaws? I think each of those characters could be made into an interesting movie. They could've been the first to have a native american superhero lead with Puma. And then with those established they could have had them go up against various Spider-Man villains and started introducing other characters like Venom, Morbius, Black Cat, Cardiac, Solo, etc. into their universe. Heck, some of those could be fitted into the Outlaws as well.

Or they could even have the Slingers as a team of heroes.

If they at least had some proper heroes first they could then have made them go up against various Spider-Man villains...

 

[Dark Raven]

I wonder how many films Sony could release before they run out of options for their SSU films?

4. Kraven
5. Madame Web
6. El Muerte
7. Venom 3

I don't know long we are going to see Spidey v. Venom. Sinister SiX would be eXpensive and a hard sell without Spider-Man. Venom 4/5/6 seem eXcessive. I'd like to see a solo film for Black Cat and Silver Sabre but I doubt they would do well. Spider-Woman and Miles Morales seem like the safest option after Venom.

What is El Muerte?

 

[psylockolussus]

What is El Muerte?

El Muerto starring Bad Bunny.

 

[Spidey_62]

What is El Muerte?

You know, the very famous Spider-Man character El Muerto who has definitely appeared in more than 2 issues.

 

[Batgirl0202]

I wonder how many films Sony could release before they run out of options for their SSU films?

4. Kraven
5. Madame Web
6. El Muerte
7. Venom 3

I don't know long we are going to see Spidey v. Venom. Sinister SiX would be eXpensive and a hard sell without Spider-Man. Venom 4/5/6 seem eXcessive. I'd like to see a solo film for Black Cat and Silver Sabre but I doubt they would do well. Spider-Woman and Miles Morales seem like the safest option after Venom.

Yeah I'd be very surprised if Venom 3 sets any box office records. Sony already blew their motherlode with Carnage in Venom 2, which actually grossed less than the first film when you remove China from the mix...

The question now is how will they create additional excitement for the franchise after having already used Venom's most famous antagonist? Who will be the villain in Venom 3? Riot? Scream? *Yawns*

This is the primary reason I live in hope that Disney/Marvel will eventually get the rights to Spider-Man back. I enjoy watching the first two Venom movies for the cheesy fun they are, but the bottom line is that many of Spidey's villains don't make sense thematically when you remove them from the Spider-Man mythos.

Venom was a character born of rage, frustration, humiliation, rejection, jealousy, scorn, and vengeance, all of it revolving around Peter/Spider-Man where Brock and the symbiote were concerned. Remove all that and he's no longer the true Venom...

Anyway we'll see what happens from here. I'd be very shocked if Kraven, Madame Web, or El Muerte were big hits, and as I said above the Venom franchise is already in decline. The only card Sony has left to play would be a Sinister Six movie with one or all of the various Spider-Men involved. However, would that sour their relationship with Marvel/Disney?

Stay tuned...

 

[Dark Raven]

El Muerto starring Bad Bunny.

Never heard of either.

 

[Bayne]

Honestly, if you had asked me what Spider-man villain would be the easiest to make a good movie out of without involving Spider-man, the blatantly obvious answer would've been Morbius. He's basically just a comic-booky Dr. Jekyll with vampire powers. People like vampires and Jekyll-esque stories. But we know how that turned out for Sony...

 

[Spidey_62]

Honestly, if you had asked me what Spider-man villain would be the easiest to make a good movie out of without involving Spider-man, the blatantly obvious answer would've been Morbius. He's basically just a comic-booky Dr. Jekyll with vampire powers. People like vampires and Jekyll-esque stories. But we know how that turned out for Sony...

Yeah, unlike most I thought inherently a Morbius movie wasn't a bad idea. He's a character that has held multiple decently running solo series and has had many solo horror adventures in '70s magazines, so there was plenty of good material to draw from without needing to make the character more palatable for lead-character status like Kraven (or an El Muerto who only ever appeared in literally 2 comics). Cuz like Venom, Morbius has lead many books. Plus like you said, lots of built-in horror trappings that could have been used in different kinds of ways. But count on Sony to fumble every single thing possible and turn it into one of the biggest jokes of a movie that could have been made.

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah I'd be very surprised if Venom 3 sets any box office records. Sony already blew their motherlode with Carnage in Venom 2, which actually grossed less than the first film when you remove China from the mix...

The question now is how will they create additional excitement for the franchise after having already used Venom's most famous antagonist? Who will be the villain in Venom 3? Riot? Scream? *Yawns*

This is the primary reason I live in hope that Disney/Marvel will eventually get the rights to Spider-Man back. I enjoy watching the first two Venom movies for the cheesy fun they are, but the bottom line is that many of Spidey's villains don't make sense thematically when you remove them from the Spider-Man mythos.

Venom was a character born of rage, frustration, humiliation, rejection, jealousy, scorn, and vengeance, all of it revolving around Peter/Spider-Man where Brock and the symbiote were concerned. Remove all that and he's no longer the true Venom...

Anyway we'll see what happens from here. I'd be very shocked if Kraven, Madame Web, or El Muerte were big hits, and as I said above the Venom franchise is already in decline. The only card Sony has left to play would be a Sinister Six movie with one or all of the various Spider-Men involved. However, would that sour their relationship with Marvel/Disney?

Stay tuned...

Venom, as a character, has not been dependent on Spider-man for a long, long time now. One can even arguey that Eddie Brock not necessarily the best Venom.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Venom, as a character, has not been dependent on Spider-man for a long, long time now. One can even arguey that Eddie Brock not necessarily the best Venom.

While I agree that Venom isn't necessarily dependent on Spider-Man anymore, I do think that for an origin story there's something missing if you skip straight to Eddie being the first to have the symbiote.

 

[Iceman]

Honestly, if you had asked me what Spider-man villain would be the easiest to make a good movie out of without involving Spider-man, the blatantly obvious answer would've been Morbius. He's basically just a comic-booky Dr. Jekyll with vampire powers. People like vampires and Jekyll-esque stories. But we know how that turned out for Sony...

Yeah, unlike most I thought inherently a Morbius movie wasn't a bad idea. He's a character that has held multiple decently running solo series and has had many solo horror adventures in '70s magazines, so there was plenty of good material to draw from without needing to make the character more palatable for lead-character status like Kraven (or an El Muerto who only ever appeared in literally 2 comics). Cuz like Venom, Morbius has lead many books. Plus like you said, lots of built-in horror trappings that could have been used in different kinds of ways. But count on Sony to fumble every single thing possible and turn it into one of the biggest jokes of a movie that could have been made.

Yep, Sony's pathetic execution was the main problem there.

 

[Originalavenger]

Yep, Sony's pathetic execution was the main problem there.

Sony was drowning with their idea of Spider-Man!! Along comes marvel and brings him back big time!! Sony you’re just wasting everyone’s time think it might be best to work out some deal with marvel!! You guys keep animation and let us have live action back??!! It’s a start anyways

 

[Iceman]

Sony was drowning with their idea of Spider-Man!! Along comes marvel and brings him back big time!! Sony you’re just wasting everyone’s time think it might be best to work out some deal with marvel!! You guys keep animation and let us have live action back??!! It’s a start anyways

They’ve done very well with Spider-verse and I’d love to see them fully focus on that. Their animation and show division (judging by TLOU Vs Uncharted, night and day difference) seem a lot more competent than the film side.

 

[psylockolussus]

They’ve done very well with Spider-verse and I’d love to see them fully focus on that. Their animation and show division (judging by TLOU Vs Uncharted, night and day difference) seem a lot more competent than the film side.

I think Spider-Verse animated film franchise has a limit though.

Aside from Toy Story, Ice Age, Shrek, Madagascar and (soon Kung Fu Panda), there aren't really a lot of animated movie franchises that continued after the third movie. Like maybe there would be a Spider-Man: Four the Spider-Verse. But across and beyond that, i believe when I see it.

BoX office wise, Venom and Spider-Verse movies are good for now. But in the late 20s and 30s? Are we still going to see these films doing well at the boX office?

 

[Batgirl0202]

While I agree that Venom isn't necessarily dependent on Spider-Man anymore, I do think that for an origin story there's something missing if you skip straight to Eddie being the first to have the symbiote.

Say what you will about Spider-Man 3 but Raimi gave us a Venom way closer in spirit to the character from the comics than the Hardy version ever did. When Venom was first introduced in the books, the character was the stuff of nightmares...

I'd even offer the suggestion that the only "scary" thing about the Hardy version is how completely they succeeded in neutering the Venom character...

 

[Spider-Fan]

To be fair, the comics made Venom more jokey than scary pretty shortly after he was introduced. By the time Carnage was introduced, he was doing cringey singing and such. So Hardy's is pretty accurate to that era

 

[Batgirl0202]

To be fair, the comics made Venom more jokey than scary pretty shortly after he was introduced. By the time Carnage was introduced, he was doing cringey singing and such. So Hardy's is pretty accurate to that era

Disagree completely.

The greatest joke regarding Venom in the comics was how Brock was more of a "monster" than the symbiote ever was...

Whenever I think of Venom from the books, I'm reminded of how a cuckoo will push baby birds out of their nest and take their place, effectively tricking the mother bird into feeding the imposter instead of her own babies. Yes it's horrible, but at the end of the day, it's just nature after all.

The symbiote, at least when first introduced, followed the same general principle. It didn't bond with Peter because it's evil; it did so because it needed a host to survive. And then all of its subsequent actions were in the interest of protecting its host, which it depended on for survival after all.

After Peter rejects it, the symbiote needed another host to survive, and it latched onto Brock because it sensed the same negative emotions towards Peter that the symbiote shared after its rejection. At the end of the day, the symbiote was just doing what all living organisms do instinctively - trying to ensure its own survival.

It's true that the Venom from the books devolved relatively quickly into a caricature, but when first introduced the writers - especially Michelinie - made sure to emphasize how deranged Brock actually was. The singing and quipping was meant to psychologically traumatize their enemies, basically a cat playing with a mouse. Brock enjoyed torturing, humiliating, and traumatizing his victims, hence the general buffoonery. It was meant to illustrate the depths of Brock's psychosis and capacity for evil, which were only accentuated by the alien organism's negative influence.

Contrast this with the Hardy version, who is virtually cuddly by comparison haha. Brock in particular lacks the evil, depraved, nasty, downright psychotic nature of his comic book counterpart. He's basically just a sad sack in the movies with a very defined moral compass. The producers have completely neutered the character, though to be fair I doubt a more comics-accurate solo version would have sold as well...

Removing the character from the Spider-Man mythos makes him a completely different Venom. I'd love to see a more faithful version someday if the rights eventually revert.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The intent from Venom's pov in those books may have been to psyche out his opponents, but as a reader he just came off as silly and hilarious. Not scary. Not in that era. Last story where I felt Venom was meant to be scary and he came off as scary was when he took Spider-Man to the island and did the most dangerous game thing. Peter in the Carnage story is scared when going to recruit him, but in the story itself he comes as really super goofy and not scary. I can see not being a fan of the Venom films. They are not good movies and more are appealing as so bad they're good type fair, but as far as Venom being more jokey as a character, I think they had fair basis for it

 

[Batgirl0202]

The intent from Venom's pov in those books may have been to psyche out his opponents, but as a reader he just came off as silly and hilarious. Not scary. Not in that era. Last story where I felt Venom was meant to be scary and he came off as scary was when he took Spider-Man to the island and did the most dangerous game thing. Peter in the Carnage story is scared when going to recruit him, but in the story itself he comes as really super goofy and not scary.

Again, I disagree completely.

The Venom character, at least when first introduced, was one of the most horrific adversaries Spider-Man had ever faced. Even Peter himself was terrified of him. He pretty much scared Mary Jane to death when she first encountered him. Peter even commented that his wife was one of the "strongest women he knew" and openly questioned what could have terrified her to that extent...

I can see not being a fan of the Venom films. They are not good movies and more are appealing as so bad they're good type fair, but as far as Venom being more jokey as a character, I think they had fair basis for it

Actually for the record I'm a fan of the movies haha. I think they're great, goofy fun, especially the first one

However, I agree with the point others have made that this just isn't the same Venom from the books. By removing him from the Spider-Man mythos, Sony has effectively robbed him of everything that was scary and thematically compelling about the character. Now he's just a jokey dude with an alien attached who wants to eat brains.

If you're a serious fan of the character I can understand having an issue with this portrayal...

 

[Spider-Fan]

Again, I disagree completely.

The Venom character, at least when first introduced, was one of the most horrific adversaries Spider-Man had ever faced. Even Peter himself was terrified of him. He pretty much scared Mary Jane to death when she first encountered him. Peter even commented that his wife was one of the "strongest women he knew" and openly questioned what could have terrified her to that extent...



Actually for the record I'm a fan of the movies haha. I think they're great, goofy fun, especially the first one

However, I agree with the point others have made that this just isn't the same Venom from the books. By removing him from the Spider-Man mythos, Sony has effectively robbed him of everything that was scary and thematically compelling about the character. Now he's just a jokey dude with an alien attached who wants to eat brains.

If you're a serious fan of the character I can understand having an issue with this portrayal...

The incident you are referring to though is early Venom. Which yes, he was treated more like a Jason Voorhees horror type character at that point in time. But that's not the era I am referring to when I am talking about his more goofy portrayels.

 

[Batgirl0202]

The incident you are referring to though is early Venom. Which yes, he was treated more like a Jason Voorhees horror type character at that point in time. But that's not the era I am referring to when I am talking about his more goofy portrayels.

Isn't that the discussion on hand? Regarding the character's origin?

I was agreeing with another poster who felt that bypassing Peter and jumping straight to Brock took something away from the character's origin and fundamentally changed Venom...

However, I do agree that the character became progressively goofier over time and is no longer dependant on Spider-Man. Having said that, I'd still like to see the character done justice someday, with his true origin as a manifestation of Peter's Id intact.

 

[TheVileOne]

A piece of Venom got left in the MCU. Not sure if that's going anywhere, but whatever.

They should've done a Spider-Man 2099 movie instead of this Morbius, Kraven, and Madame Web BS.

Kraven is a f'n sociopath. He wants to hunt Spider-Man. That simple. He's a hunter. Spidey is his game. His prey.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

They should've done a Spider-Man 2099 movie instead of this Morbius, Kraven, and Madame Web BS.

Kraven is a f'n sociopath. He wants to hunt Spider-Man. That simple. He's a hunter. Spidey is his game. His prey.

Agreed on 2099. But if they are going to do a universe like they're doing they could've at least made Kraven be the villain to another character. Besides potential Spider-Man stand-ins like Silk, I really feel like a Puma VS Kraven movie could've really worked. Kraven is like a big cat hunter who wears a lion pelt, Puma is part mountain lion. Puma is Native American and protector of his tribe, while Kraven is a white aristocrat with a very colonial vibe. Even though I don't think they've ever faced each other in the comics, it would be so easy to make that work.

 

[TheVileOne]

Agreed on 2099. But if they are going to do a universe like they're doing they could've at least made Kraven be the villain to another character. Besides potential Spider-Man stand-ins like Silk, I really feel like a Puma VS Kraven movie could've really worked. Kraven is like a big cat hunter who wears a lion pelt, Puma is part mountain lion. Puma is Native American and protector of his tribe, while Kraven is a white aristocrat with a very colonial vibe. Even though I don't think they've ever faced each other in the comics, it would be so easy to make that work.

Yes to all that on Kraven. It makes his recontextualization as this conservationist animal lover even dumber. Dude ain't freaking Tarzan.

 

[psylockolussus]

I'm not a fan of legacy characters, but a Miles Morales movie and a Miguel O'Hara movie would have been more interesting.

I feel like with a really good director and writer, a solo movie or origin movie for Sandman, Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Kraven, Morbius, Chameleon, Spot, Venom, Vulture, Lizard, Electro, Rhino and the countless Spider-Man foes could be really good. I feel like there's always a story to tell. But still doing them in a big budgeted movie without Spider-Man, feels like something is missing. These characters aren't enough to headline a standalone theaterical movie.