The Dark Knight Returns

[Agentsands77]

Far more have read DKR than Watchmen.

That means diddly. More people have seen STAR WARS than VERTIGO, but that hardly means that STAR WARS is a greater film.

 

[Cobblepot]

But Star Wars has had far more influence.
And that was our discussion point, not if one was better.

 

[The Leaguer]

I'm the guy punching you in the head

I'll let you re-think that, because everyone knows Sub-Zero is cooler than Johnny Cage.

 

[silentflute]

When it happens, I'll let you know.

no you won't.You can't even admit it to yourself.


Until then, I'll continue to make you look like the hopeless, pathetic 'tard you are.

You're not capable of making anyone look anything.You can't even make yourself look good.Time to go back go back to school junior.

 

[Agentsands77]

But Star Wars has had far more influence.

Actually, no.

STAR WARS had more mainstream influence, but it's really VERTIGO that has subtlely influenced the filmmakers themselves. To choose an even more distinctive example, CITIZEN KANE (and I'd call WATCHMEN the CITIZEN KANE of comic books, so that works). More people have still seen STAR WARS than CITIZEN KANE, but the influence of technical genius of CITIZEN KANE is so felt that it has touched nearly every filmmaker to this day.

And that was our discussion point, not if one was better.

Oh, it was which one was better. "The greatest thing to happen to graphic novels" = "the greatest graphic novel"

 

[silentflute]

I've done that plenty elsewhere.


Do so again.Or simply copy n paste if you're too lazy.

And BTW, do you not know how to use the quote feature?

No, it's a choice.


I wouldn't be so sure.

I guess you're not too business savvy are you?




Sure there is. I'll deny it. They're okay, but far from great.

Yeah.Ok.


Sure they can. It's far from impossible.

I never said it was impossible.It's just not too common.The fact is, a lot of fanboys refuse to dig deeper.They need to be spoon fed their stories in a linear fashion.Anything that doesn't fall in that category they label crap.

 

[Agentsands77]

Do so again.Or simply copy n paste if you're too lazy.

-Incoherent storyline
-It abuses its characters
-A very flat, irritating, and unnecessarily political commentary that doesn't amount to much of anything insightful
-It's all exceedingly silly and overblown
-Miller's prose has never been quite so overwritten

How's that for starters.

No, it's a choice.

Ah, an individual, eh?

I guess you're not too business savvy are you?

Oh, interest is waning on that title by this point. Furthermore, things are so ridiculously delayed at this point that I doubt we'll make it much further in the story.

Yeah.Ok.

Think what you like.

I never said it was impossible.It's just not too common.The fact is, a lot of fanboys refuse to dig deeper.They need to be spoon fed their stories in a linear fashion.Anything that doesn't fall in that category they label crap.

I don't think the hatred for Miller's past series of works has anything to do with a failure to "dig deeper."

 

[souloffire]

Actually, no.

STAR WARS had more mainstream influence, but it's really VERTIGO that has subtlely influenced the filmmakers themselves. To choose an even more distinctive example, CITIZEN KANE (and I'd call WATCHMEN the CITIZEN KANE of comic books, so that works). More people have still seen STAR WARS than CITIZEN KANE, but the influence of technical genius of CITIZEN KANE is so felt that it has touched nearly every filmmaker to this day.


Oh, it was which one was better. "The greatest thing to happen to graphic novels" = "the greatest graphic novel"

Obviously Hitchcock has a huge influence on filmmakers that continues to this day, with that said I think Star Wars is the bigger influence because it changed the industry both on screen and off.

I love both DK and Watchman but I think DK had the bigger impact because, well it's Batman. People still associated Batman with Adam West and the Superfirends and when Dk came out chewed up the reader than spit em' out So when it comes to a cultural influence it's definitly DK. When it comes to influence on comics today their isn't a writer alive not influenced by either book or writer.

 

[Cobblepot]

Actually, no.

STAR WARS had more mainstream influence, but it's really VERTIGO that has subtlely influenced the filmmakers themselves. To choose an even more distinctive example, CITIZEN KANE (and I'd call WATCHMEN the CITIZEN KANE of comic books, so that works). More people have still seen STAR WARS than CITIZEN KANE, but the influence of technical genius of CITIZEN KANE is so felt that it has touched nearly every filmmaker to this day.

More mainstream? What it ment for FX is unsurpassed.

Oh, it was which one was better. "The greatest thing to happen to graphic novels" = "the greatest graphic novel"

That's the threads title...not our discussion point. Don't deny that.

 

[Agentsands77]

More mainstream? What it ment for FX is unsurpassed.

Special effects isn't the end-all of filmmaking. STAR WARS was a landmark film, make no mistake, but it wasn't CITIZEN KANE. CITIZEN KANE set the groundwork for film as an artistic medium.

That's the threads title...not our discussion point. Don't deny that.

You said: "This book is the greatest thing that ever happened to Batman and graphic novels!" and I responded to that by saying that, no, WATCHMEN is the greatest thing that ever happened to graphic novels.

 

[Cobblepot]

Yeah but in "greatest thing" I ment that:

A:Comics were getting attention from the media and was first seen as a more serious and not just for kids medium.
B:It redesigned what was Batman (and helped getting him on the silvers screen and so helping other superheroes find their way there)
C:People are still talking about the book
D:Graphic Novels were suddenly selling more.
E:Batman finaly got rid of the 60's feel everone associated him with.
F:I believe the colouring for it's time was fenominal (far better than Watchmen) and made DC see that this was the way a book should be coloured.
G:It's "The Dark Knight Returns".

Oh and we weren't comparing Star Wars to Citizin Kane.

 

[Agentsands77]

Yeah but in "greatest thing" I ment that:

A:Comics were getting attention from the media and was first seen as a more serious and not just for kids medium.

This is true. And for that aspect, I'm thankful (though DKR wasn't the only comic doing it - credit has to go to Alan Moore's stuff, as well as Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN series and so on). I've always said I respect DKR as a landmark, but that doesn't mean that it's a masterpiece.

B:It redesigned what was Batman (and helped getting him on the silvers screen and so helping other superheroes find their way there)

I would argue that it didn't necessarily redesign Batman for the better. It may have targeted him more for an adult audience, true, but it also turned him into a cynical, vengeance-hungry psycopath for the next decade. I appeal to the Grant Morrison school of Batman - instead of Batman being an extension of madness on Wayne's part, I see it as the thing that kept him sane - the one crazy thing he needed to do to make sense of everything.

Oh and we weren't comparing Star Wars to Citizin Kane.

I was.

As I said a bit above in a post you responded to: To choose an even more distinctive example, CITIZEN KANE (and I'd call WATCHMEN the CITIZEN KANE of comic books, so that works). More people have still seen STAR WARS than CITIZEN KANE, but the influence of technical genius of CITIZEN KANE is so felt that it has touched nearly every filmmaker to this day.

 

[silentflute]

-Incoherent storyline
Coherent enough to me and others.Maybe you need to work on you're comprehension

-It abuses its characters

No, it enriches them.


-A very flat, irritating, and unnecessarily political commentary that doesn't amount to much of anything insightful

Actually it was very insightful.And groundbreaking.No one had done it in comics before.

-It's all exceedingly silly and overblown

It's supposed to be overblown.These our 20th century Gods.


-Miller's prose has never been quite so overwritten

Next you'll be saying the same thing about Alan Moore.

How's that for starters.

Not good.Go back to the drawing board.


Ah, an individual, eh?

Of sorts.


Oh, interest is waning on that title by this point. Furthermore, things are so ridiculously delayed at this point that I doubt we'll make it much further in the story.

You'll be proven wrong.


Think what you like.

Ok.


I don't think the hatred for Miller's past series of works has anything to do with a failure to "dig deeper."

Obviously...cause you're on of the ones that seem incapable of doing just that.

 

[Agentsands77]

Coherent enough to me and others.Maybe you need to work on you're comprehension

I meant it was incoherent in the sense of that it lacked congruity, wasn't cohesive. Not that it was incomprehensible.

No, it enriches them.

If you think it does that to Superman, then I'm aghast. And I don't see it particularly doing the same for Batman.

Actually it was very insightful.And groundbreaking.No one had done it in comics before.

1983 - V FOR VENDETTA. And then there was the whole X-Men political commentary back in the day. And what the hell is particularly insightful about Miller's political commentary?

It's supposed to be overblown.These our 20th century Gods.

What the hell does that have to do with bizarre flying robot children? And you can do a very big, epic storyline without it being silly. And silly is precisely what THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is.

Next you'll be saying the same thing about Alan Moore.

I have nothing but the highest respect for Moore (and for that matter, Neil Gaiman, who has turned out some fantastic work in the graphic novel genre). He's still the greatest comic book writer of all time.

There's a difference between (as Grant Morrison put it) "MY BACK SPLINTERS INTO A THOUSAND SHARDS OF AGONIZED BONE. HE'S GOOD. HE'S YOUNG. HE'S TOUGHER AND YOUNGER THAN ME. AND TOUGHER. DID I MENTION TOUGHER ? MUSN'T BLACK OUT..." and actually good inner monologue. Many of the passages in DARK KNIGHT RETURNS overstate themselves to the point of being utterly laughable.

Obviously...cause you're on of the ones that seem incapable of doing just that.

Whatever you say, oh insightful one.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

B. D. B.
I. N. W.T.
In Singer I also trust. Don't like it? Eat me.
Batman Begins. Overrated by the lovers. Underrated by the haters.

Your sig... I agree with it 100%. Every part of it is truth.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

DKR was a very entertaining read, but there were things I didn't agree with, most of which have already been mentioned here. Batman was a bitter jerk. Yeah, call Miller genius all you want but making your lead characters all the same (Wolverine, Batman, Marv, etc) isn't genius... it's selfish. The "integrity-based" characters in Miller's world are always naive, moronic sell outs (Superman, or any religious or government character) while the heroes are always down, dirty, one-liner spewing, cigar chomping anti-heroes. DKR STILL was very cool... and I enjoyed it a lot. However, it's super over rated and in my opinion, Watchmen, Hush, Identity Crisis, Red Son, and Kingdom Come all blow it out of the water.

 

[Carmine Falcone]

It's considered ''cool'' to hate Miller these days. I still ****ing love his work. Sin City, DKR, Year One, even All-Star Batman is awesome so far.

However, it's super over rated and in my opinion, Watchmen, Hush, Identity Crisis, Red Son, and Kingdom Come all blow it out of the water.

That's utter bull****.

 

[Nepenthes]

That's utter bull****.

Sloppy green squirting bull**** with worms in it.

 

[The Leaguer]

Actually, no, it's not.

 

[hippie_hunter]

No, that's the cop out.You wanna get on Leaguer's level,I'll be happy to treat you the same way.

But dude, you have a massive hard-on for Miller. You seem to think that he can do no wrong at all.

That's fine.But without it, Batman wouldn't be where he is today.So, at least respect it.

There's a difference between respecting the Dark Knight Returns' story and respecting it's place in the comics industry. I don't like its story but I very much respect it's place in the industry and what it did for Batman and all of comics.

I never said DK2 was great.I said that alot of it's subtext,Like DKR, was missed by many "fans". I'll wait till ASB&R is done before I make any judgements on it.

1. There is no subtext in the Dark Knight Strikes Again, it was crap, plain and simple.

2. You've already judged All-Star Batman and Robin as the greatest thing since the Dark Knight Returns and sliced bread.

I don't see Miller as any such thing.Stop using that as you're cop out.Miller still writes great stories.Look at Sin City.Unlike Claremont, he hasn't "lost" anything, he is just going a different route than what is expected of him.

It is not a cop out. It's the truth. Miller is nowhere near as good as he used to be. He, John Byrne, and Chris Claremont need to be put to pasture with Stan Lee, Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams, Jack Kirby, Bill Finger, and other comic book writers who are great whose times are just simply up.

 

[Nepenthes]

There is no subtext in the Dark Knight Strikes Again, it was crap, plain and simple.

Wrong. There is definitely a subtext. Someone once explained it to me but I forgot what it is.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Batman in DKR is probably Batman at his worst aside from Adam West simply because he is SOOO exaggerated. He's a 60 year old man manipulating the world and beating up Superman (not in the original draft tho) but only after having a hard time with the Joker. It's cool to have him seem way beyond any mortal man as part of his illusion, but he is just so all over the place in this book. He's always put at a slight disadvantage which he'll definitely overcome in some rugged way whether he's fighting an ant or a God and everything heroic and selfless about him has been replaced with selfish, manipulative views. It's not Batman. It's Frank Miller putting himself in Batman's body.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

There's a difference between (as Grant Morrison put it) "MY BACK SPLINTERS INTO A THOUSAND SHARDS OF AGONIZED BONE. HE'S GOOD. HE'S YOUNG. HE'S TOUGHER AND YOUNGER THAN ME. AND TOUGHER. DID I MENTION TOUGHER ? MUSN'T BLACK OUT..." and actually good inner monologue. Many of the passages in DARK KNIGHT RETURNS overstate themselves to the point of being utterly laughable.

Sin City is the exact same thing. The characters all think the same way. It's INTERESTING but it's not particularly good writing.

I agree with you that no way in hell were any characters in DKR "enriched". Batman is arguable, but I wouldn't call it enrichment as much as just rearrangement. Superman is dumbed down to naive moron status. Joker says just about nothing. Catwoman has about three lines. It's just Batman talking about how dirty and low the streets of Sin City... err... Gotham are.

 

[Nepenthes]

He's a 60 year old man manipulating the world and beating up Superman (not in the original draft tho) but only after having a hard time with the Joker.

He beats on a severely weakened Superman with missiles, krypton and the entire voltage of Gotham city. Plans. But he gets the upperhand and then he dies, he never would have actually beaten him.

When does he manipulate the world?

Superman is dumbed down to naive moron status. Joker says just about nothing.

Joker says "I don't keep count, but you do" . That says volumes. Remember this is an older Joker as well, it makes sense he's a little different. In fact he's more like his first appearances if anything.

The story backs up what Superman did. It's a possible future where that decision would make sense.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

By "manipulates the world" I meant he's a manipulative dude... not that he actually has the planet earth under his control (tho he's working on it in Strikes Again). He just seems like a slightly less evil Luthor in these books. He does what he wants, his point of view is always right, and he's willing to kill or battle people who are trying to do the right thing.

Yeah the Superman thing bugged me because he has the one line he says to Superman like "never forget the one man who beat you" or something and I was reading it thinking "wait, first.. you had Robin in a tank and Green Arrow firing kryptonite, Superman was already weakened by the nuke, you used the city's voltage... and Superman was trying to TALK to you while you were attacking him." That doesn't seem heroic or noble at all, and I think Batman should be heroic AND noble. What exactly is he even fighting for in these books? A city where mutants don't go around enforcing their views with violence because Batman does it himself? And when he tells Superman to remember the one man who beat him, does that mean Superman is supposed to forget the other two who helped?

I give the story mad props for being very fun to read, interesting, and ground breaking. I keep seeing that people are saying "you have to at least have respect for DKR but shouldn't Miller have had more respect for Batman or Superman?