The Dark Knight Returns

[hippie_hunter]

I know the Dark Knight Returns out of continuity.Any and all future story's are by nature out of continuity due to the fact that their gona keep telling other story's and that makes things difficult to keep them in continuity.
But just because the Dark Knight Returns out of continuity does not make it an elseworlds book.It was ment to be one person's vision of the posible end to the Batman story.In Frank Miller's mind's eye..this is what Batman would have become if the world continued to sprial down-ward the way it was back in the mid 80's.

Anything that is not in continuity is often considered to be an Elseworlds story or an Imaginary Story (excluding All-Star books).

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Anything that is not in continuity is often considered to be an Elseworlds story or an Imaginary Story (excluding All-Star books).

You can say that anything that is not in continuity is or should be considered an Elseworlds book and then exclude All-Star books.Ether the standered aplys or it doesent.The fact of the matter is that Elseworlds was a different line of thought altogether that had its origins in storys like TDKR not the other way around.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Anything that is not in continuity is often considered to be an Elseworlds story or an Imaginary Story (excluding All-Star books).

You can say that anything that is not in continuity is or should be considered an Elseworlds book and then exclude All-Star books.Ether the standered aplys or it doesent.The fact of the matter is that Elseworlds was a different line of thought altogether that had its origins in storys like TDKR not the other way around.Witch is why we are debating TDKR and not some elseworlds second rate story.

 

[silentflute]

I rarely say this, because usually people post opinions on here, but you're simply flat out wrong. Current Batman does not kill. He does not PREFER not to kill, he doesn't REALLY NOT LIKE not to kill, he's not even A TINY BIT SQUEMISH about killing. HE DOESN'T. Plain and simple.

Wrong.

And yes, he will do what he has to do. He'll rescue the child and overpower the bad guy while not killing anyone. Nuff said.

Did they also all live happily ever after in your wanna be pristine world?
t:

 

[silentflute]

He doesn't kill at all. He doesn't prefer not to kill. He DOES NOT kill. Period.

Nope.


That was to show that Batman does not tolerate death at all.

Get it through you're skull-Scenario dictates.


I'm pretty damn sure that Jeph Loeb, Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka, Judd Winick, Alan Moore, Ed Brubaker, Grant Morrison, and others know more about Batman than you do, prick.

With the exception of Moore, these are the exact fools I was talking about chump.


More like continuity is BS to you because it completely contradicts on what you say.

Wake up and smell the cofee that's the reason why every 20 yrs comic companies start fresh.Too much baggage, that confines good writers.

Batman's parents were murdered. He suffered as a result. He doesn't want to bring that suffering onto others with his own actions, even if they do deserve death. If he was willing to kill, he would have killed the Joker by now. But he hasn't.

That was addressed in DKR - eventually he couldn't bring himself to do it.Once again that doesn't negate the fact that he'll do it if he has to.Key word is "has" to, whereas in your Joker scenario, he would juts want to.Big difference there.Learn it.

Continuity allows stories to move foward. It is allowing our Batman, Nightwing, Robin, and other characters to age (slowly, but it is happening), continuity is there to ensure that creators just don't go off and do what the hell they want to do to the character.

Who cares about Nightwing?Who cares about Robin without Batman?Continuity is there to appease nitwits like yourself.

Not only that you are such a Miller fanboy, you don't get the right to call me a fanboy.

Again, learn to read.I don't like everything Miller has done.I just give respect where it's due.



Wow, what a great comeback

Better than anything you can come up with.

 

[Agentsands77]

That was to show that Batman does not tolerate death at all.

Get it through you're skull-Scenario dictates.

Sure. And plenty of scenarios exactly similar to the one in DKR had occurred, and without Batman resulting to gun usage.

I'm pretty damn sure that Jeph Loeb, Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka, Judd Winick, Alan Moore, Ed Brubaker, Grant Morrison, and others know more about Batman than you do, prick.

With the exception of Moore, these are the exact fools I was talking about chump.

No wonder we can't get through to you. You have no respect for the best writers to ever tackle Batman.

 

[The Leaguer]

silentflute is an idiot.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

silentflute is an idiot.

There seems to be a lot of that going on around hear!Excluding your-self of course!

 

[hippie_hunter]

You can say that anything that is not in continuity is or should be considered an Elseworlds book and then exclude All-Star books.Ether the standered aplys or it doesent.The fact of the matter is that Elseworlds was a different line of thought altogether that had its origins in storys like TDKR not the other way around.

The All-Star books are their own line of self-contained stories. The writer can put them in continuity, out of continuity, whatever they want with it.

All out-of continuity stories up to 1986's "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorrow" are Imaginary Stories.

Starting from 1989's Gotham by Gaslight, every out of continuity story is an Elseworlds. The Dark Knight Returns is often considered in this line, even though it came out before then.

 

[Punch]

If a comic has the Elseworlds logo on the cover, then it's an Elseworlds book, if it doesn't, it's not, simple as that.

 

[Agentsands77]

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS isn't elseworlds. But it is a "what if?" sort of story, nonetheless.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Nope.

Get it through you're skull-Scenario dictates.

Even after, all of the in-continuity scenes that I've provided, you still deny that Batman is willing to kill. Your crediblity in the knowledge of Batman's character just keeps getting lower and lower. Batman does not kill. There is no debate in this arguement.


I'm pretty damn sure that Jeph Loeb, Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka, Judd Winick, Alan Moore, Ed Brubaker, Grant Morrison, and others know more about Batman than you do, prick.

With the exception of Moore, these are the exact fools I was talking about chump.

So you're saying that the writers of some of the best Batman stories EVER and biggest Batman stories in recent history have no knowledge on the character. That you know more about the character than they do. I say that you are very full of it.

Wake up and smell the cofee that's the reason why every 20 yrs comic companies start fresh.Too much baggage, that confines good writers.

DC hasn't started fresh on their continuity. They've revamped it in Crisis of Infinite Earths, Zero Hour: Crisis in Time, and Infinite Crisis, but they haven't started fresh. What happened in the very first issue of Detective Comics has still happened within the History of the DC Multiverse.

If the DC Universe refreshed itself every so often. We'd still have Dick Grayson as Robin. A Batman in his late 20's/early 30's. Jay Garrick as the Flash. And so on. No, we have a Batman who has gone through 4 Robins now and is in his late 30's/early 40's. Bart Allen is now the Flash. And so on.

A good writer can write within the confines of continuity. You want a company that convienently ignores continuity to do whatever the hell they want, go read a Bendis Marvel book.

That was addressed in DKR - eventually he couldn't bring himself to do it.Once again that doesn't negate the fact that he'll do it if he has to.Key word is "has" to, whereas in your Joker scenario, he would juts want to.Big difference there.Learn it.

BATMAN DOESN'T F**KING KILL YOU TWIT. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL

Who cares about Nightwing?Who cares about Robin without Batman?Continuity is there to appease nitwits like yourself.

Who cares about Nightwing? A lot of people care about f**king Nightwing. It's called character progression dumbass. Continuity allows that.

Again, learn to read.I don't like everything Miller has done.I just give respect where it's due.

Well you're certainly acting like a Miller fanboy

Better than anything you can come up with.

No, that was like, seriously lame.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

The All-Star books are their own line of self-contained stories. The writer can put them in continuity, out of continuity, whatever they want with it.

All out-of continuity stories up to 1986's "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorrow" are Imaginary Stories.

Starting from 1989's Gotham by Gaslight, every out of continuity story is an Elseworlds. The Dark Knight Returns is often considered in this line, even though it came out before then.

Even there your wrong!Gotham by Gaslight was not originally published as an Elseworlds story and was a stand alone story that because of it's popularity brought about the creation of the Elseworlds storys.
Gotham by Gaslight was then RETROACTIVELY declared the first Elseworlds story.I believe the real first story to be published under the Elseworlds baner was the Gotham by Gaslight sequel :Master of the Future or Batman:Holy Terror both published in 1991.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

The All-Star books are their own line of self-contained stories. The writer can put them in continuity, out of continuity, whatever they want with it.

All out-of continuity stories up to 1986's "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorrow" are Imaginary Stories.

Starting from 1989's Gotham by Gaslight, every out of continuity story is an Elseworlds. The Dark Knight Returns is often considered in this line, even though it came out before then.

And the problem with the All star books is that THEY dont even have a continuity of their own.All star Bat's has no link to All star Sup's or any other posible title's.But it should make for good story telling.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

A good writer can write within the confines of continuity. You want a company that convienently ignores continuity to do whatever the hell they want, go read a Bendis Marvel book.

Hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!I'm laughing my a$$ off dude!

 

[Infinity9999x]

I rarely say this, because usually people post opinions on here, but you're simply flat out wrong. Current Batman does not kill. He does not PREFER not to kill, he doesn't REALLY NOT LIKE not to kill, he's not even A TINY BIT SQUEMISH about killing. HE DOESN'T. Plain and simple.

Wrong.

And yes, he will do what he has to do. He'll rescue the child and overpower the bad guy while not killing anyone. Nuff said.

Did they also all live happily ever after in your wanna be pristine world?
t:

Alright, you're doing a good job at making people annoyed, I'll give you that, but how about this.

You obviously strongly feel that Batman will kill. Alright, that's fine, now I'd like you to give us an example of where he has, in current continuity killed. Show me that, and I'll gracefully accept the fact I was wrong, if you can't, well then, would it be too much to think that maybe, juuuust maybe, we're right on this one? Because you can say a character will do this, and will do that, all you like, but if he hasn't, and multiple writers have stated, in the comic, that he won't kill, then you're probably wrong.


And yes, they do live happily ever after, they also play with bunnies and listen to angels on harps. It's quite entertaining, really.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Alright, you're doing a good job at making people annoyed, I'll give you that, but how about this.

You obviously strongly feel that Batman will kill. Alright, that's fine, now I'd like you to give us an example of where he has, in current continuity killed. Show me that, and I'll gracefully accept the fact I was wrong, if you can't, well then, would it be too much to think that maybe, juuuust maybe, we're right on this one? Because you can say a character will do this, and will do that, all you like, but if he hasn't, and multiple writers have stated, in the comic, that he won't kill, then you're probably wrong.


And yes, they do live happily ever after, they also play with bunnies and listen to angels on harps. It's quite entertaining, really.

Well that depends on your defination of the term" in current continuity "and how long a story stays in current continuity.It was said a while back that Son of the Demon was back in continuity. Batman in that book killed Qayin to stop him from killing Ra's Al Ghul.Now before all you nit picker say that there's no way that Batman could have known that Qayin would have died.....let me say that it does not take a GENIOUS to figure out that if you kick a guy holding 2 LIVE ELECTRICAL WIRE'S that hes going to get ELECTROCUTED and Batman is a GENIOUS!
And to top it off he seemed pleased by Qayin's death even taking the time to say to Ra's that he hope's Qayin find's no peace in his death while marking the body in BLOOD with the letter Q.
Now I prefer that Batman does not kill but it has happened.

 

[C. Lee]

Stop the name calling folks.....you can debate stuff without getting into that.

 

[Tojo]

DKR is simply the most intelligent, funny and generally brilliant graphic novel ever to grace the name of Batman.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Well that depends on your defination of the term" in current continuity "and how long a story stays in current continuity.It was said a while back that Son of the Demon was back in continuity. Batman in that book killed Qayin to stop him from killing Ra's Al Ghul.Now before all you nit picker say that there's no way that Batman could have known that Qayin would have died.....let me say that it does not take a GENIOUS to figure out that if you kick a guy holding 2 LIVE ELECTRICALWIRE'S that hes going to get ELECTROCUTED and Batman is a GENIOUS!
And to top it off he seemed pleased by Qayin's death even taking the time to say to Ra's that he hope's Qayin find's no peace in his death while marking the body in BLOOD with the letter Q.
Now I prefer that Batman does not kill but it has happened.

Is Son of the Deamon officially back in continuity? I wasn't sure, but I haven't been reading the latest Batman books in the past coupple months.

I haven't read Son of the Deamon, but just reading over what you've said, if Batman kicked a guy holding a live wire, he may have not meant to kill him. When someone's holding something and you're struck, one could just as easily drop whatever they're holding away from their body. He may have not cared that Qayin died, I really doubt he'd care if the Joker died, but that still doesn't mean he wants to kill someone. Batman marking the body and saying he hopes Quayin finds no peace only means that he doesn't give a damn that he's dead.

And really, the biggest thing against Batman killing is the IC. Silentflute says that Bats would kill if only a child's life was in danger. Well, with Alex Luthor, an entire world was in danger, and he still didn't kill him. I'm sorry, but if Bats won't kill Alex Luthor, I doubt he's going to kill a crook who threatens a kid.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS isn't elseworlds. But it is a "what if?" sort of story, nonetheless.

Uh...what's the difference? I mean, "What if?" is essentially Marvel's version of Elseworlds.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Uh...what's the difference? I mean, "What if?" is essentially Marvel's version of Elseworlds.

No Elseworlds is DC's version of Marvel's what if.Marvel was doing What if storys as far back as 1977.Elseworlds didnt come out till around 1991.

 

[silentflute]

Even after, all of the in-continuity scenes that I've provided, you still deny that Batman is willing to kill. Your crediblity in the knowledge of Batman's character just keeps getting lower and lower. Batman does not kill. There is no debate in this arguement.

Well sonny, Batman has killed.Both in the Kane stories and obviously in Miller's stories.So,apparantly, he has killed now, hasn't he?somebody oughtta slap your mama for having such a dumb kid.


I'm pretty damn sure that Jeph Loeb, Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka, Judd Winick, Alan Moore, Ed Brubaker, Grant Morrison, and others know more about Batman than you do, prick.


So you're saying that the writers of some of the best Batman stories EVER and biggest Batman stories in recent history have no knowledge on the character. That you know more about the character than they do. I say that you are very full of it.

"Best stories" acoording to whom?BEST is a relative term.Get it?


DC hasn't started fresh on their continuity. They've revamped it in Crisis of Infinite Earths, Zero Hour: Crisis in Time, and Infinite Crisis, but they haven't started fresh. What happened in the very first issue of Detective Comics has still happened within the History of the DC Multiverse.

Start fresh, Revamp- it's all the same thing.Are you that dense?Or just ******ed?I rest my case.

If the DC Universe refreshed itself every so often. We'd still have Dick Grayson as Robin. A Batman in his late 20's/early 30's. Jay Garrick as the Flash. And so on. No, we have a Batman who has gone through 4 Robins now and is in his late 30's/early 40's. Bart Allen is now the Flash. And so on.

A good writer can write within the confines of continuity. You want a company that convienently ignores continuity to do whatever the hell they want, go read a Bendis Marvel book.

I don't need to.Certain writers get certain charcters.Period.


BATMAN DOESN'T F**KING KILL YOU TWIT. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL

I'm curious, do you blow your father with that mouth?


Who cares about Nightwing? A lot of people care about f**king Nightwing. It's called character progression dumbass. Continuity allows that.

It's called a boring character moron.How many Nightwing fans do you see on an average day?


Well you're certainly acting like a Miller fanboy

No, I'm just slaughtering you're scared cows and watching you go ape****.


No, that was like, seriously lame.

Really?Lamer than a pathetic fan boy who lives and dies by continuity?

 

[silentflute]

Alright, you're doing a good job at making people annoyed, I'll give you that, but how about this.

Really?And I wasn't even trying.

You obviously strongly feel that Batman will kill. Alright, that's fine, now I'd like you to give us an example of where he has, in current continuity killed.

In case you haven't gotten it- I don't give a **** about continuity.If you wanna have this discussion, then break it down by writers.


Show me that, and I'll gracefully accept the fact I was wrong, if you can't, well then, would it be too much to think that maybe, juuuust maybe, we're right on this one?

No.


Because you can say a character will do this, and will do that, all you like, but if he hasn't, and multiple writers have stated, in the comic, that he won't kill, then you're probably wrong.

Well, Kane had him do it( an by the way that would technically be in continuity so there) And so has Miller.So I could care less what Loeb , Winick, Morrison and company have to say about it.


And yes, they do live happily ever after, they also play with bunnies and listen to angels on harps. It's quite entertaining, really.

Based on your views, I don't doubt it.In your world , Batman exists with the Sesame Street characters.

 

[Mee]

I have to go with silentflute on this one. Batman is willing to kill. I mean Finger and Kane's version did it all the time. Loeb's Batman was going to kill Joker until Gordon stopped him, (Hush, in continuity) and he was willing to help Superman commit and cover up the murder of Lex Luthor. ( Superman/Batman, also in continuity) I haven't read the story, but didn't he also kill Ra's Al Gul in Superman/Batman?