The Defenders The Defenders General Discussion Thread

[seahammer]

Doctor Strange is a must. It ain't The Defenders without Doctor Strange. He's got to be the thing that brings the team together.

And I don't think budget is at all an issue for Doctor Strange. His magic doesn't have to involve overt flashy special effects, it can be subtle, conveyed through edits and whatnot. I imagine him being portrayed similarly to the Angels on "Supernatural," which is something I'd be quite happy with.

Plot wise, I'm imagining Strange bringing together a group of champions to help him battle some dark pulpy/lovecraftian supernatural threat that is clawing at the walls of reality.

That would be a really bold move for the MCU. Assuming that Strange has already had a movie by the time of the Defenders miniseries, this could be like his sequel, too. Interesting idea.

As for a threat that could tie all this together, I could see them using something mystical from the Hand if they explore that in the earlier series (even a variation of the Beast of the Hand from Shadowland, though I don't want DD to be possessed), or even the Hood as some have suggested as a villain. I don't know enough about the mystic side of Iron Fist's universe, but maybe even something related to K'un L'un as an easy in.

 

[The Question]

That would be a really bold move for the MCU. Assuming that Strange has already had a movie by the time of the Defenders miniseries, this could be like his sequel, too. Interesting idea.

I'd imagine that there's a chance the Defenders mini series will come out before any Doctor Strange film, so this could also serve as his introduction.

As for a threat that could tie all this together, I could see them using something mystical from the Hand if they explore that in the earlier series (even a variation of the Beast of the Hand from Shadowland, though I don't want DD to be possessed), or even the Hood as some have suggested as a villain. I don't know enough about the mystic side of Iron Fist's universe, but maybe even something related to K'un L'un as an easy in.

Personally, I'd like to see them go for one of the creeping Lovecraft style cosmic horrors from the Marvel Universe, like Shuma-Gorath.

 

[seahammer]

I'd imagine that there's a chance the Defenders mini series will come out before any Doctor Strange film, so this could also serve as his introduction.

I thought they were coming out one per year. I don't remember where I read that, but if it's true that would mean a Strange film would likely come out first. However, I could be (and hope I am) mistaken about that one per year thing. Again, I don't remember where I read it, so I could be mistaken.

Personally, I'd like to see them go for one of the creeping Lovecraft style cosmic horrors from the Marvel Universe, like Shuma-Gorath.

Shuma is cool. I was just brainstorming something more closely tied to the other members of this Defenders team.

 

[Mr. Dent]

This doesn't need Doctor Strange. This is obviously a different interpretation of the Defenders than the group from the comics which was basically Avengers-lite. This is more like Heroes for Hire in all but name.

 

[seahammer]

I agree that it doesn't need Strange, but The Question's idea is fun to think about.. for me at least.

 

[The Question]

This doesn't need Doctor Strange. This is obviously a different interpretation of the Defenders than the group from the comics which was basically Avengers-lite. This is more like Heroes for Hire in all but name.

I never got an "Avengers-lite" feel from The Defenders. Their adventures were always a lot more 30s pulp horror inspired than traditional superhero stories.

Anyway, I don't see that strict a distinction between The Defenders and the Heroes for Fire. In both cases it's a ragtag bunch of weird lesser known super heroes doing their own thing. And really, in the comics, the Defenders line up has changed so much over the years that it's really only defined as "being founded by Doctor Strange," and I'm pretty sure at least a few of the characters in the Netflix series have been members at one point or another.

Also Doctor Strange would be cool.


AND, I would argue that they do need Doctor Strange, or at least someone like him: They need somebody or some thing to bring the team together.

 

[Hypestyle]

I'll gladly sub Dr. Voodoo in for Strange, the latter is bound for his own films anyway. There are Haitian communities in NYC, start there.

 

[The Question]

Yeah, I'd rather not see more of a depiction of Voodoo as magic written mostly by white people who've never set foot on Louisiana or Haiti.

 

[fixxxer]

I highly doubt The Defenders will have anything to do with Dr. Strange or any other supernatural element. The only thing that this will have to do with the comics' Defenders is the name.

I expect them to keep it almost completely "street level". Maybe Kingpin (assuming they have the rights) is the common behind-the-scenes thread that each of the 4 heroes are up against in their individual series, and this realization makes them come together in The Defender mini-series to take him down.

If Dr. Strange is bringing any team together, I'm thinking it'll be the Midnight Sons, and on the big screen.

 

[The Question]

I highly doubt The Defenders will have anything to do with Dr. Strange or any other supernatural element. The only thing that this will have to do with the comics' Defenders is the name.

I expect them to keep it almost completely "street level". Maybe Kingpin (assuming they have the rights) is the common behind-the-scenes thread that each of the 4 heroes are up against in their individual series, and this realization makes them come together in The Defender mini-series to take him down.

If Dr. Strange is bringing any team together, I'm thinking it'll be the Midnight Sons, and on the big screen.

Except that Iron Fist, a man raised in another dimension where no one ages who received magical powers after beating a dragon to death, is going to be a founding member of the team.

 

[metaphysician]

Which is a good excuse to bring in. . . other street level relevant elements, specifically, mystic kung fu. That really doesn't have any relevance whatsoever to the matter of Dr Strange and his milieu, which has more in common with the crap Reed Richards deals with, than the crap Iron Fist deals with.

 

[The Question]

Which is a good excuse to bring in. . . other street level relevant elements, specifically, mystic kung fu. That really doesn't have any relevance whatsoever to the matter of Dr Strange and his milieu, which has more in common with the crap Reed Richards deals with, than the crap Iron Fist deals with.

Iron First deals with magic, immortals, demons, and other dimensions. How is that not relevant to Dr. Strange and his milieu?

How is it still "street level" if there's sorcery and alternate universes involved? What does "street level" mean exactly?

 

[The Overlord]

I'd imagine that there's a chance the Defenders mini series will come out before any Doctor Strange film, so this could also serve as his introduction.



Personally, I'd like to see them go for one of the creeping Lovecraft style cosmic horrors from the Marvel Universe, like Shuma-Gorath.

Not be a broken record, but would Shuma-Gorath work on a TV budget?

Whether Dr. Strange appears or not, depends on the setting and tone of the team. If its a street level team, then Dr. Strange would not fit in, because he take out their enemies in a second. If its a more cosmic team, then he would fit in.

Really this team may just be using the Defenders name, but more similar to Daredevil's Marvel Knights team. If its supposed to the stars in the other TV shows together in a team, it might be more similar to the Marvel Knights team. I thought that was the premise of the show, it is the street level characters from the other shows together as a team, not necessarily the comic book Defenders. Maybe I am wrong on that account, but that's what I thought it was.

 

[The Question]

Not be a broken record, but would Shuma-Gorath work on a TV budget?

Yes. Easily. Again, you can get around a lot of budget issues with magical stuff by keeping it subtle and not showing everything off in full detail. Shuma-Gorath is a creeping cosmic horror, it's more effective if we only catch glimpses of him anyway. Supernatural, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Doctor Who, Star Trek, Babylon Five, Angel, and a bunch of other shows pulled off huge cosmic entities on TV budgets. It's not an insurmountable task.

TV budgets are bigger and TV producers are cleverer at using them than I think you give them credit for.

Whether Dr. Strange appears or not, depends on the setting and tone of the team. If its a street level team, then Dr. Strange would not fit in, because he take out their enemies in a second. If its a more cosmic team, then he would fit in.

I find these "street level" and "cosmic" divisions to be pretty restrictive and not especially useful. Clearly, if Doctor Strange is going to be on the team, then they're not just going to be dealing with random gangsters. Daredevil can fight gangsters in his series and then team up with Doctor Strange to fight monsters in the mini series.

Really this team may just be using the Defenders name, but more similar to Daredevil's Marvel Knights team. If its supposed to the stars in the other TV shows together in a team, it might be more similar to the Marvel Knights team. I thought that was the premise of the show, it is the street level characters from the other shows together as a team, not necessarily the comic book Defenders. Maybe I am wrong on that account, but that's what I thought it was.

Why can't "street level" heroes team up to deal with something else when brought together by Doctor Strange?

 

[The Overlord]

Yes. Easily. Again, you can get around a lot of budget issues with magical stuff by keeping it subtle and not showing everything off in full detail. Shuma-Gorath is a creeping cosmic horror, it's more effective if we only catch glimpses of him anyway. Supernatural, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Doctor Who, Star Trek, Babylon Five, Angel, and a bunch of other shows pulled off huge cosmic entities on TV budgets. It's not an insurmountable task.

TV budgets are bigger and TV producers are cleverer at using them than I think you give them credit for.

How often did they have a cosmic horror in Star Trek? It seems more often they had aliens who were humans with odd foreheads.

The Borg were originally supposed to be insect creatures, they were changed to Cyborgs to better fit the budget.

Unless Shuma-Gorath takes human form for most of the series, I'm not sure how you have him on and not seem really fake. How is he supposed to interact with others if he is always in the shadows?

I find these "street level" and "cosmic" divisions to be pretty restrictive and not especially useful. Clearly, if Doctor Strange is going to be on the team, then they're not just going to be dealing with random gangsters. Daredevil can fight gangsters in his series and then team up with Doctor Strange to fight monsters in the mini series.

Except if you have Shuma-Gorath, what is DD supposed to do to him? I don't think DD jump kicking him would be effective. Its the reason why Spider-Man works better in NYC then in outer space, a street level hero generally works better against street level villains, while a cosmic hero generally works better against cosmic villains, otherwise either the villain or the hero has to act stupid for the plot to continue beyond a few minutes.

Why can't "street level" heroes team up to deal with something else when brought together by Doctor Strange?

Who would they team up against that wouldn't be dominated by Dr. Strange (any street level villain) or wouldn't give anyone besides Strange else a chance to shine (any mystic villain)? Bendis tried to make Dr. Strange a street level hero by seriously nerfing him, I don't think that is what we want. There is a world of difference in terms of power between say the Kingpin and Shuma-Gorath.

 

[fixxxer]

Everything I've read about the Netflix shows describe them as gritty, crime-oriented shows set in NYC. The only reason for the incessant Dr. Strange speculation stems from the fact that the team-up mini-series is called The Defenders. As much we like to cling to comicbook canon, in terms of nomenclature, dropping Dr. Strange and associated heavy supernatural elements in the middle of what they seem to be planning is a complete tonal mismatch. I highly doubt Dr. Strange's corner of the Marvel Universe will have anything to do with this series.

 

[Gr0oT]

Everything I've read about the Netflix shows describe them as gritty, crime-oriented shows set in NYC. The only reason for the incessant Dr. Strange speculation stems from the fact that the team-up mini-series is called The Defenders. As much we like to cling to comicbook canon, in terms of nomenclature, dropping Dr. Strange and associated heavy supernatural elements in the middle of what they seem to be planning is a complete tonal mismatch. I highly doubt Dr. Strange's corner of the Marvel Universe will have anything to do with this series.

Basically this.
Although I can get behind the thought process The Question has brought up I just don't see them going in this direction.
The original Defenders was more power stacked than the original Avengers, they can deal with cosmic level threats.
But for the MCU version they're main purpose is taking care of the problems that don't get on the radar of our current heavy hitters.

You implicate Shuma tearing the fabric of time and space and trying to plunge our world into a Lovecraftian nightmare and you'd be hard pressed to justify the Avenger's absence.

So far as the involvement of Strange in the MCU Defenders... I'm sure that he figures heavily into Phase 3 of the movies and it'll be quite the spectacle.

What would be brilliant is if the eventual Shuma-Gorath was worked into a Defenders plot. In the movie you'd have the full on money shot of it but in the show it would deal with the fallout of the assault and you could see just the glimpses of it whilst the Defenders take care of their crumbling streets (people looting, cults going overboard, general pandemonium).

 

[The Question]

How often did they have a cosmic horror in Star Trek? It seems more often they had aliens who were humans with odd foreheads.

It happened a lot, man. Where Silence Has It's Lease, the Pah Wraiths in DS9, Q, Trelane, a couple others. They didn't have them every episode but my point is that they had then. Also I listed several other TV shows.

The Borg were originally supposed to be insect creatures, they were changed to Cyborgs to better fit the budget.

Okay. So what?

Unless Shuma-Gorath takes human form for most of the series, I'm not sure how you have him on and not seem really fake. How is he supposed to interact with others if he is always in the shadows?

Shuma-Gorath could effect the world without being seen. It could have human cultists who worship it and seek to bring it forth. It could have monstrous beings that seek to do it's will on the earth. All of the TV shows I mentioned found these ways an others of writing around the budget issues.

Except if you have Shuma-Gorath, what is DD supposed to do to him? I don't think DD jump kicking him would be effective. Its the reason why Spider-Man works better in NYC then in outer space, a street level hero generally works better against street level villains, while a cosmic hero generally works better against cosmic villains, otherwise either the villain or the hero has to act stupid for the plot to continue beyond a few minutes.

Nope, that is completely untrue. Shuma-Gorath could have human (or even monstrous) minions on the Earth. There could be come kind of summoning ritual that the heroes have to thwart. There could be some kind of MacGuffin that the heroes have to destroy or use to keep Shuma-Gorath from entering our dimension. Maybe Shuman-Gorath has some kind of long term plan for the Earth that works in stages that the heroes have to hinder as best they can. The story does not have to be nor should it be about an exchange of basic and direct brute force. That's painfully unimaginative.

All of the shows I mentioned pit non powered or relatively weak beings against great cosmic horrors, and often team them up with extremely powerful beings in the process. They all manage to find a balance. In fact, the vast majority of stories in popular culture that deal with some great creeping cosmic being have entirely human protagonists who still find a way to win.

Who would they team up against that wouldn't be dominated by Dr. Strange (any street level villain) or wouldn't give anyone besides Strange else a chance to shine (any mystic villain)? Bendis tried to make Dr. Strange a street level hero by seriously nerfing him, I don't think that is what we want. There is a world of difference in terms of power between say the Kingpin and Shuma-Gorath.

That's also not what I'm suggesting. I think I've been very clear in what I'm suggesting. I've explained, pretty well I think, how they can have the four heroes who are getting mini series team up with Dr. Strange against a mystic threat without the story being imbalanced. Namely, and this is the most important: Don't make the story all about a direct exchange of brute force between the heroes and the villain.

I mean, really, every super hero team ever has had an imbalance of power in their roster, and they've usually found a way to deal. The Avengers had a pagan god fighting alongside some dude with a bow and arrow, and it worked out. I think you're seeing an insurmountable problem when there's only a fairly normal challenge that has been overcome by others before.

And again, I find these distinctions between "street level" and "cosmic" to be incredibly restrictive and entirely useless.

Everything I've read about the Netflix shows describe them as gritty, crime-oriented shows set in NYC. The only reason for the incessant Dr. Strange speculation stems from the fact that the team-up mini-series is called The Defenders. As much we like to cling to comicbook canon, in terms of nomenclature, dropping Dr. Strange and associated heavy supernatural elements in the middle of what they seem to be planning is a complete tonal mismatch. I highly doubt Dr. Strange's corner of the Marvel Universe will have anything to do with this series.

There are already heavy supernatural elements in one of the shows, Iron Fist. It wouldn't be a tonal mismatch because it's already there.

 

[Slushy]

They need Dr. Strange and Sub-Mariner

 

[metaphysician]

They don't need Dr. Strange and Sub-Mariner

Edited for correctness.

The show has *nothing* to do with the adventures of Dr Strange. It is a name, nothing more.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

I'm curious, how does Netflix go about determining if the shows are a success or not? Do they have ratings for their shows like regular cable or do they base it solely on how many more net subscribers they add? I really love the idea that the MCU is invading several different facets of how we consume media and I want as much as possible for as long as possible

 

[The Overlord]

It happened a lot, man. Where Silence Has It's Lease, the Pah Wraiths in DS9, Q, Trelane, a couple others. They didn't have them every episode but my point is that they had then. Also I listed several other TV shows.

I am more familiar with Star Trek then those other shows, so I am addressing what I know and I think at least with the Star Trek examples you provided, none of them are as detailed as Shuma-Gorath:

Q and Trelane had human appearance, the Pah Wraiths hardly ever appeared in person, they usually possessed people or they had others do their dirty work for them, they were more of a presence then active characters. Only the Silence Has Lease Creature is comparable and even then it only appeared in one episode, did not have to interact with the crew (being in space) and was easier to do then a giant eye ball with tentacles.

Okay. So what?

So non humanoid creatures are hard to do on a TV budget, that is a big reason the Borg were changed to cyborgs.

Shuma-Gorath could effect the world without being seen. It could have human cultists who worship it and seek to bring it forth. It could have monstrous beings that seek to do it's will on the earth. All of the TV shows I mentioned found these ways an others of writing around the budget issues.




Nope, that is completely untrue. Shuma-Gorath could have human (or even monstrous) minions on the Earth. There could be come kind of summoning ritual that the heroes have to thwart. There could be some kind of MacGuffin that the heroes have to destroy or use to keep Shuma-Gorath from entering our dimension. Maybe Shuman-Gorath has some kind of long term plan for the Earth that works in stages that the heroes have to hinder as best they can. The story does not have to be nor should it be about an exchange of basic and direct brute force. That's painfully unimaginative.

All of the shows I mentioned pit non powered or relatively weak beings against great cosmic horrors, and often team them up with extremely powerful beings in the process. They all manage to find a balance. In fact, the vast majority of stories in popular culture that deal with some great creeping cosmic being have entirely human protagonists who still find a way to win.



That's also not what I'm suggesting. I think I've been very clear in what I'm suggesting. I've explained, pretty well I think, how they can have the four heroes who are getting mini series team up with Dr. Strange against a mystic threat without the story being imbalanced. Namely, and this is the most important: Don't make the story all about a direct exchange of brute force between the heroes and the villain.

I mean, really, every super hero team ever has had an imbalance of power in their roster, and they've usually found a way to deal. The Avengers had a pagan god fighting alongside some dude with a bow and arrow, and it worked out. I think you're seeing an insurmountable problem when there's only a fairly normal challenge that has been overcome by others before.

And again, I find these distinctions between "street level" and "cosmic" to be incredibly restrictive and entirely useless.

Then how great cosmic Spider-Man stories are there compared to stories where he is on Earth fighting street level criminals. Some characters work best in a certain setting, with a certain tone, DD works far better in a street level story then he does in a mystical one.

I think you are making a somewhat fanboy presumption (no offense) that because this series is called "Defenders" it will have Dr. Strange in it, because he is the Defenders in the comics, when everything that has come out of the press releases suggest it will be a far more off beat and down to Earth team that is only using the same name, but has more common with Daredevil's Marvel Knights team. If Dr. Strange, why wasn't he announced with the other characters. It seems like Marvel is more interested in a Dr. strange movie, then having him appear in these TV shows and that just makes sense.

You had no problem with them changing the Mandarin in Iron Man 3, even though it was different from the comics, so why does Dr. strange have to be in this Defenders, when they are going for something different then the Defenders introduced in the 70s? Heck why is Dr. strange more important then Namor or silver surfer or the Hulk? Again, they seem to be going for something different then the Defenders concept introduced in the 70s in the comics.

And Iron Fist is not a magic user in the same way Dr. Strange, you have a story where he just uses martial arts with very little magic, which makes it easier to put him against more street level foes.

 

[fixxxer]

Again. The Defenders is just a name they took from the comics that sounds similar enough to The Avengers for the audience to make that particular association. I would be highly surprised if this turns out to have anything to do with the comics' Defenders team.

 

[The Question]

I am more familiar with Star Trek then those other shows, so I am addressing what I know and I think at least with the Star Trek examples you provided, none of them are as detailed as Shuma-Gorath:

Q and Trelane had human appearance, the Pah Wraiths hardly ever appeared in person, they usually possessed people or they had others do their dirty work for them, they were more of a presence then active characters. Only the Silence Has Lease Creature is comparable and even then it only appeared in one episode, did not have to interact with the crew (being in space) and was easier to do then a giant eye ball with tentacles.

Okay. What's your point? My point is that they found ways around the budget problems. You listed three ways that they did. Take your pick for Shuma-Gorath.

So non humanoid creatures are hard to do on a TV budget, that is a big reason the Borg were changed to cyborgs.

I've listed plenty of examples of TV shows that did non-humanoid creatures. One example where they altered their plans for budgetary reasons doesn't change anything.

Then how great cosmic Spider-Man stories are there compared to stories where he is on Earth fighting street level criminals. Some characters work best in a certain setting, with a certain tone, DD works far better in a street level story then he does in a mystical one.

1: Says you.

2: How about the time Spider-Man fought The Juggernaut? How about Secret Wars? Or the various times he's gone on missions into space with The Avengers during big crossovers? How about most of Spider-Mans villains, who are general quite powerful and who I would hardly call "street level."

Or how about Dardevil, who has in the past battled Blackheart, the demon prince of Hell, or Kirigi, a 500 year old undead ninja?

This "street level" thing you keep going on about is meaningless and restrictive.

I think you are making a somewhat fanboy presumption (no offense) that because this series is called "Defenders" it will have Dr. Strange in it, because he is the Defenders in the comics, when everything that has come out of the press releases suggest it will be a far more off beat and down to Earth team that is only using the same name, but has more common with Daredevil's Marvel Knights team. If Dr. Strange, why wasn't he announced with the other characters. It seems like Marvel is more interested in a Dr. strange movie, then having him appear in these TV shows and that just makes sense.

I'm not saying it will have Dr. Strange in it. I'm saying it should have Dr. Strange in it, and that having Dr. Strange in it is totally doable.

You had no problem with them changing the Mandarin in Iron Man 3, even though it was different from the comics, so why does Dr. strange have to be in this Defenders, when they are going for something different then the Defenders introduced in the 70s? Heck why is Dr. strange more important then Namor or silver surfer or the Hulk? Again, they seem to be going for something different then the Defenders concept introduced in the 70s in the comics.

1: They changed The Mandarin, but they still had The Mandarin as the main villain in an Iron Man story.

2: Dr. Strange is the only constant factor in the Defenders. He's the guy who brought them together and he is a member and leader of every iteration, including versions that some of the characters of the Netflix series have been on.

And Iron Fist is not a magic user in the same way Dr. Strange, you have a story where he just uses martial arts with very little magic, which makes it easier to put him against more street level foes.

Again, says you. We don't know how much magic there will be in his Netflix show.

And seeing as how in his origin story he got his powers by killing an actual ****ing dragon with his bare hands, I really don't see how the vague and restrictive "street level" moniker applies to him.

 

[metaphysician]

I'm curious, how does Netflix go about determining if the shows are a success or not? Do they have ratings for their shows like regular cable or do they base it solely on how many more net subscribers they add? I really love the idea that the MCU is invading several different facets of how we consume media and I want as much as possible for as long as possible

No idea, but it seems likely Netflix tracks and correlates their content and their subscriber base. After all, they automatically know not only how many people are subscribed, but what everyone is watching. So, they could qeue up a database of every new subscriber for the month after Daredevil comes out, and check to see what percentage of them watched the show.