The Fear Of The Wrestling Thread Is Far Greater Than The Wrestling Thread Itself - Part 151

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No, I think it's true. Yes, when it gets to the big spots, the crowds come alive and start to go wild, but they tend to treat it more like a prestigious sporting event, where they'll cheer the competitors as they enter the ring, and clap when one pulls off an impressive move, but generally avoid the chanting and booing you might get in an American show. But it has been many years since I watched a Japanese wrestling match, so that might have changed.

Now, the part where it's treated like a big Sport and how they dont often boo and stuff but during matches involving either guys like Hogan, Inoki, Tanahashi, or Okada...They'll chant one of their names or both their names throughout the match.
 
when looking at older NWA stuff from the 80s. It felt like more like an actual sport even with all of the pageantry.

Yup. It is definitely more ring-based. North America, for the most part, is sports entertainment and in Japan, it's called "Strong Style."

Is the whole belief that Japan "stays silent during matches to show respect for the ring work" just a myth?

I've heard that from quite a few people but anytime I see a high profile NJPW match whether it's from the 2013, 2012 or 1984, the audience seems hot for the match.

I'm just curious of where this belief was developed because it doesnt seem to apply to NJPW main events.

For the most part, it is like that. The crowd soaks in the classic give-and-go. The only time they pop is when the action is at a stand still, usually when both guys have just worked a lengthy spot. Neither man can get the advantage over the other, and they end up on their feet, in a staredown. Think an old school NWS crowd treating it like a prestigious sports event.


Unless they are in Osaka and well....think ECW in the Hammerstein Ballroom or WWE having a PPV in Chicago.
 
Some of the AJPW crowds in the 90's would be red hot for the entire match when any combination of the 4 Corners of Heaven faced each other.

Traditionally though they watch the bulk of matches quietly and just get noisy for the finishing stretch, but they don't chant and interact with the wrestler's the way North American crowds do.
 


- When CM Punk first walked out on WWE and the idea of Daniel Bryan vs. Triple H at WrestleMania XXX began being discussed, people in every aspect of the company did not believe that Bryan would get pushed. Something changed over the past few weeks and that was CM Punk deciding not to come back to the company.

Source: PWInsider

http://dailywrestlingnews.com/wwe-star-addresses-retirement-rumors-cm-punk-reminder-birthdays/
http://dailywrestlingnews.com/one-ppv-company-response-wwe-network-fears/
http://dailywrestlingnews.com/wwe-sends-message-cm-punk-bryan-getting-pushed/

So obviously, this was their plan Z.
 
Ranking The New Guys; Cesaro, Rollins, Wyatt, Young, Riley and More

I knock the WWE talent developmental efforts all the time because what we are able to accomplish in ROH in Talent Development is superior at a microscopic fraction of the cost.

In Ring of Honor, as far as young talent, everyone chases Adam Cole, who is the best wrestler in the world today because he is the Ring of Honor World Champion. But then combine Cole with “Unbreakable” Michael Elgin, World TV Champion Tommaso Ciampa, Michael Bennett, Former World TV Champion and 2013 Top Prospect Tournament Winner, Matt Taven and the 2014 Top Prospect champ, Hanson, just to name a few and it’s clear the ROH Tryout Camp system is turning out tons of great talent.


For the WWE, how would I rank the new crop of talent who has made the scene in the past few years?


1. Cesaro – That’s my guy… ROH alum, the former Claudio Castagnoli is killing it. In 2010, I told Dr. Tom Prichard the WWE should sign Claudio. They did and the rest is history.


2. Seth Rollins – To me, he’s the best of the Shield. He has the biggest upside and has been protected nicely. He had a bit of an attitude when he was in developmental but the former Tyler Black in ROH has matured, is happy to be back home in Iowa and is ready. Of course his Shield mates are terrific as well but I put Rollins just a shade above both Ambrose and Reigns.


3. Bray Wyatt – There is something special about Bray and they are definitely protecting him for a bigger run down the road. I would feel better about his WWE future if he would make adjustments to his physique a little… the WWE has a history of looking past talent and simply focusing on the bi’s and tri’s. I also think it would bode well for Wyatt to protect his knees by keeping the weight in check as much as possible.


4. Renee Young/Alex Riley – I love this duo of announcers. While they aren’t getting paid to fall down, Renee has credibility, never playing the dingbat and Alex brings a ton of energy to the set pieces with Josh Matthews and guests.


With Sami Zayn and Adrien Neville ready to go shortly, WWE fans will see some new faces shortly. Also, it sure looks like fans are getting their wish of Daniel Bryan leaving WrestleMania as the WWE Champion, so that’s good news to everyone who is not a fan of the “Senior Circuit”. Fans want new, fresh and different.


I really hope those first two paragraphs are kayfabe. :funny:



Glad to see the appreciation growing for Rollins, his is the singles career I'm most looking forward to of The Shield guys.
 
I've been impressed by how athletic Rollins is.
 
I find it annoying that Joe Koff sees ROH as nothing more than a WWE breeding ground.
 
@yvettenbrown 15h
Dear #CMPunk fans...heard from Phil that @PhilBrooksMMA is a FAKE page. Do with that info what you will. And fake page maker... #SHAME! :(

So I guess thats that.
 
Watching Legends of Wrestling Roundtable on the network,The history of raw episode is awesome,well they all are but this one is truly great
 
When was Trips ever good as a face?,I kinda liked him when he returned from injury in 2001 or 2 but he has always just been best as a heel
 
I liked it when he and Shawn reformed DX.
 
@yvettenbrown 15h
Dear #CMPunk fans...heard from Phil that @PhilBrooksMMA is a FAKE page. Do with that info what you will. And fake page maker... #SHAME!

So I guess thats that.

Knew it.

Never once was I fully convinced that the @PhilBrooksMMA account was him. And if it was, I was never fully convinced that it wasn't a work.

Nice to have confirmation though. :up:

Unless he's lying.........
 
When was Trips ever good as a face?,I kinda liked him when he returned from injury in 2001 or 2 but he has always just been best as a heel

Trips was a good face. But he was NEVER a great face like Shawn Michaels, John Cena, and Hogan types were.

You just could never fully buy him as a face.

When he's portraying the "I will do anything for gold, glory, and to make it to the top" heel persona, you can buy into it 100%. Because honestly, that's him for real.
 
I found THIS on NoDQ.com and well....I'm shocked to say the least:

1795613_10203478234942451_1642583153_n.jpg


Somone mind telling me when this took place? Seeing The Viper with.........him.....is just :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

He beat Cena to it.
 
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So I see you guys are discussing Puro...

I was on wrestlingforum.com where a similar topic came up about Puro vs. WWE styles, and I thought there was an excellent response by another poster named KO Bossy. It's a good read for those who may not be as familiar with the contrast in styles, but t's pretty lengthy so I've included it in spoiler tags below so there's not a wall of unwanted text for those who aren't interested. And full disclosure, I don't agree with all of his views, especially since I enjoy the WWE product a lot more than he does apparently.

As a Puro watcher, let me elaborate, from my point of view.

When you see and really get into Puro, you'll understand exactly why stuff like WWE today is so god awfully bad.

First off, the storytelling in Puro is very layered. On the surface, you see Tanahashi working on Okada's arm because that's the limb he's targeting for the match. But below that, you know its because Okada needs that arm to hit the Rainmaker, and if he can't use it, he's at a big disadvantage. Its practical, but logical. And they go all out to target that weakness or specific area, which makes complete sense. If a guy has an injured leg, why wouldn't you exploit it as much and believably as you could? Quite honestly, I RARELY see that in WWE. It so often just feels like two guys just hitting moves back and forth with no real rhyme or reason. I know that people loved Bray vs Bryan at the Rumble but I couldn't really get into it overall for this reason. Bray would have the advantage, then Bryan would come back, then repeat until Bray wins. In good Puro, it makes a million times more sense what they're doing. And of course, the guys actually SELL what's happened to them. When Okada hit the Rainmaker, his arm was in so much pain that he couldn't go for the pin right away, allowing Tanahashi time to recuperate and be able to kick out of it when Okada finally did try for a pin half a minute later. That makes total sense. If your leg hurts, limp. It makes it more real. This is aside from the fact that the Japanese are renowned for working stiffly, which makes it all seem infinitely more believable.

Second, the commentary. I know people feel they need commentary, but I love the Japanese commentary without understanding 99% of it. When Shinpei Nogami is going crazy screaming BOMA YE or LARIATOH, it feels like what's going on is a big deal because he makes it a big deal. He sounds genuinely excited by what's going on. By that alone, I get more excited and into the match. Contrast that to Michael Cole and his disgusting, disingenuous OH MY. I feel ill even comparing the two.

Third, the in ring. Puro doesn't put idiotic restrictions on a guy's move set. For some reason in WWE they do, which I hate. There's also the fact that once in a WHILE someone will kick out of a finisher, as opposed to Cena/Rock where nobody expects the match to end unless Cena kicks out of 3 Rock Bottoms and a People's Elbow. I find it embarrassingly lazy when guys have to resort to finisher spamming and kick outs to build tension in a match.

Fourth, and this is an extension of #1, is the callbacks. Puro is famous for linking long standing feuds together with nods back to previous matches. Its a really nice touch to link everything together. OK, Kawada is murdering Kobashi's leg because previously, Kobashi did that to Kawada's leg, so Kawada is getting his revenge. Simple, yet it shows that they care about tying up that little part of the story. It makes them seem so much more competent as in ring and overall storytellers. I can count maybe a couple times when WWE has done something like that and it makes their stories feel so much more scripted.

These little things are really what bother me about WWE. Let's look back at one of Puro's most famous matches-Kobashi/Misawa vs Kawada/Taue on June 9th, 1995. GOAT tag match, bar none. At the time, Misawa and Kawada were in the middle of a really bitter feud that had been going on for a while. So to keep them apart, Taue and Kobashi start the match for their teams. Then Kawada tags in. He and Kobashi exchange blows and Kobashi reverses an Irish Whip into the ropes. Kawada responds by running at Misawa and kicking him in the face and knocking him off the apron. Why is this significant? It was a cheap shot, and logically, you'd expect something like that from Kawada (a heel) against beloved babyface Misawa. Not only is it heel tactics, but these two were in a major feud. Its natural for them to try and get at each other to fight. So what happens? Misawa gets back on the apron, shakes the cobwebs loose and tells Kobashi to tag him in. The audience goes OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH at the prospect of these two enemies just stepping into the ring with each other.

Now, contrast such an interaction with the Rock/Cena feud. WM28 match. This feud has been brewing for a year plus at this point. What's the first thing these two mortal enemies do? Lock up. What the hell sense does that make? That's how any other Superstars match starts. Its also not how mortal enemies behave. I was expecting something more like Shibata/Ishii that Pyro mentioned where they come out of the corners and start swinging for the fences. Two guys who hate each other would logically want to beat the other to a pulp, so they should act like it. Locking up doesn't say blood feud, it says "just another wrestling match." If I'm fighting a guy I despite and who has talked **** about me for over a year, I'm not going to lock up with him. I'm going to try and break his face at first chance. It makes the feud feel real, like Misawa/Kawada. That felt intensely personal because the first chance they got, they were trying to beat the crap out of one another, like real enemies would. Rock/Cena felt scripted to the gills. That's just an example of what I mean.

There's also the slap and chop fights that a lot of people don't really get. This is absolutely the best explanation for it I've ever seen (credit goes to Woolcock)

Quote:
Someone like Kawada will do a strike exchange early but either decisively win or lose the exchange to establish the hierarchy, e.g if Kawada is the veteran he might obliterate the younger opponent with a kick to establish the kid can't match him strike for strike. Then Kawada will progressively give more to the opponent, and by the end you'll see the youngster flooring Kawada and you can believeably see Kawada losing because he's gradually relinquished control and the tone of the match has shifted. Nowadays you get repeated elbow, forearm and slap exchanges but very few guys (bar Ishii) use them to communicate a theme: i.e one wrestler proves dominant initially. Instead guys just seem to hit each other and then move onto the next sequence and it just irritates me and takes me out of a match.

Consequently back in the 90s you'd have strikes exchanged but the best wrestlers utilised them in a way that communicated a story that added to the match and built to a moment later in the match where one wrestler would finally win an exchange. They're like a match within the match. Meta, if you will. Its one of those tools that helps convey the story. Its not that WWE needs to utilize this, but for some reason they rebel against certain techniques in ring because "that's not how you properly work." Honestly, I don't even think casual fans would understand the point of it.

Essentially, it boils down to the fact that Puro makes so much more sense to me, as a wrestling fan. What they do, I look at and say to myself "that is completely logical, I can see that actually happening and in the context of the story, I understand why they did that perfectly." In WWE, I rarely say that. Its just guys hitting the moves that the WWE has allotted them and once in a blue moon does it ever mean something, or is it used to convey an overall greater meaning. What happens in ring has to mean something and help tell the story, and I find the WWE in ring stories not only formulaic, but boring. Aside from the truly great matches like Austin/Bret, they mean little to me anymore. Its just WWE Generic Story #3 told between (Insert Wrestlers X and Y).
 
Heh, that was the post that made me (FINALLY) join that forum. :up::up:

Oh and NJPW commentary>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WWE commentary times a million.
 
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