The Future of the United States of America!

[Kelly]

This thread is for the sake of discussion some of your opinions on what you see as the future of the USA.

I've been watching Beck today, now this thread is not to discuss whether you like Beck, agree with Beck, whatever (start your own thread )BUT, he has brought up some very good points as to the future of our country. Now mind you, it has a very loud sound of "THE SKY IS FALLING...." so keep that in mind.

What Beck did on one of his shows was he simply brought on different speakers and asked them to give their "worst case scenarios". Here they are....THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT HE BELIEVES THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN...he makes this very clear.



So give it a watch....try and get past your hatred of Fox News, Glenn Beck, think out of the box alittle. This is JUST FOR DISCUSSION.

Also, something kind of interesting.... I love James Cameron, because he is such a student of history. In his TV series "Dark Angel" you saw that, and saw his study of WWII and what happened in the area of genocide. But he also has an uncanny ability to look in the future. As I listened to these men and their scenarios, that series was playing in my mind, and it was unbelievable familiar. So if you get a chance, watch some of the First Season, and you will see an America they are talking about.


Disclaimer: I'm not saying that I agree with ANYTHING these men are saying, I just thought it was an extremely interesting discussion.

It's all yours........

Also, this can be a very provocative discussion, please be respectful of other opinions.

 

[SentinelMind]

This is a good series....Beck is finally on his game. Didn't the US Government releaes a report saying they thought America could lose its superpower status during the next 8 years? I'm so sick of liberalism and the entitlement ideology in this country and its going to lead us to ruin.

 

[redfirebird2008]

This is a good series....Beck is finally on his game. Didn't the US Government releaes a report saying they thought America could lose its superpower status during the next 8 years? I'm so sick of liberalism and the entitlement ideology in this country and its going to lead us to ruin.

I got news for you. Many of these conservatives (I'm talking middle class people) who rail against all the debt that's been racked up in this country are huge hypocrites. They're running around with $30,000 in credit card debt and living a far more extravagant lifestyle than their paycheck affords. It's not just a liberal problem, it's an American problem. The whole country has a problem with entitlement, thinking that because we live in this country, that automatically means we can run up as much debt as we want with no consequences.

 

[SentinelMind]

I got news for you. Many of these conservatives (I'm talking middle class people) who rail against all the debt that's been racked up in this country are huge hypocrites. They're running around with $30,000 in credit card debt and living a far more extravagant lifestyle than their paycheck affords. It's not just a liberal problem, it's an American problem. The whole country has a problem with entitlement, thinking that because we live in this country, that automatically means we can run up as much debt as we want with no consequences.

That's not news to me, I'm well aware of our low saving rate in this country. But poor personal financial behavior will immediately be corrected...unless the federal or state government provides a moral hazard. If regular people realize they will be given entitlements no matter what, there are loan guarantees, and they will be bailed out for poor behavior..(have government judges restructure loan or mortgage contracts), they may rationally decide to walk away from their debt. People will behave irresponsibily, but the only thing we can do is to prevent the government from rewarding that irresponsible behavior.

 

[redfirebird2008]

That's not news to me, I'm well aware of our low saving rate in this country. But poor personal financial behavior will immediately be corrected...unless the federal or state government provides a moral hazard. If regular people realize they will be given entitlements no matter what, there are loan guarantees, and they will be bailed out for poor behavior..(have government judges restructure loan or mortgage contracts), they may rationally decide to walk away from their debt. People will behave irresponsibily, but the only thing we can do is to prevent the government from rewarding that irresponsible behavior.

I'm of the opinion that a depression could be a good thing in the long run. If it forces people and the government to start living within their means, then it would influence an entire generation or maybe even two generations of people into being responsible with their money/lifestyle.

The only mistake I've made so far was buying a car right before the economy completely crashed. I make enough money to pay for my car note, but I wouldn't have bought the car if I knew what was going to happen with the economy. I didn't buy an extravagant car. I bought a fuel efficient, mid-size sedan with pretty basic features. My previous car was 11 years old, but I still only had 90,000 miles on it. The biggest problem was the annoyance of having to constantly fix the turn signals and other things that kept breaking on the car (it was a Firebird).

The most debt I've racked up was $2,000 for a HDTV and surround sound from Best Buy last June. But they gave me 0% interest for up to 2 years. I've already paid it off and now have no credit card debt. I never use my bank credit card. I only use my debit card, so any purchases I make come directly out of my bank account.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I save 50% of my income and when I bought my HDTV from Sears I paid half of it right away with money I saved outside of the 50% I already save. I'm on my last payment after buying it last November.

 

[Excel]

I got news for you. Many of these conservatives (I'm talking middle class people) who rail against all the debt that's been racked up in this country are huge hypocrites. They're running around with $30,000 in credit card debt and living a far more extravagant lifestyle than their paycheck affords. It's not just a liberal problem, it's an American problem. The whole country has a problem with entitlement, thinking that because we live in this country, that automatically means we can run up as much debt as we want with no consequences.

That is true. While it might be a nice to see them get a lesson taught to them for their poor decisions by seeing them lose their $/possessions, thats really not an option.

 

[Paradoxium]

To me it was never about liberalism vs. conservatism. It was always about individualism vs. collectivism... you could be collectivist and still be conservative, or individualist and still be liberal. Or vice versa. This distinction is more important, because of how it consolidates power, liberalism or conservatism it more about social bents. As of right now, collectivism is what is in-vogue and growing. The Demopublican parties are collectivists in their actions. While there might be some exceptions within them, this does not negate the general trend or trajectory.

In the extreme case a civil war were to occur, it would be more along these lines. One side tries to structure it as a class conflict (very similar to Marx), the other side is trying structure as the war of ideas.

 

[Paradoxium]

I watched all the videos care of youtube, Beck seems to have a lot energy and enthusiasm for someone who is trying to evoke these dooms day scenario... uh sugar in his diet?

Celente has an interesting track record, he does not bat 100%, but still he did make a lot of good calls.

Anyways I don't think a Revolution is likely. Simply because people in America tend to be too chicken to fight; it is the tendency for them to want to take the path of least resistance. Mind you there are some exceptions but they are too small of a percentage to make enough of a difference.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Anyways I don't think a Revolution is likely. Simply because people in America tend to be too chicken to fight; it is the tendency for them to want to take the path of least resistance. Mind you there are some exceptions but they are too small of a percentage to make enough of a difference.

*hands para a US history book* check this out, you might change your mind on that point.

 

[Paradoxium]

*hands para a US history book* check this out, you might change your mind on that point.

What makes you think I haven't given history some level of consideration... like I said, too chicken, along with gun control laws. On top of which, a lot of men are quite neutered. An unorganized mob vs a small organized unit - especially with the sophisticated weaponry of our age - they are canon fodder.

What is more likely to happen is the military turning against the government after some breaking point.

 

[moraldeficiency]

We've had two revolutions in a short period of our country's history, we started with a revolution in fact. And that's not counting the dozens of revolutions we've either implemented, aided or instigated. In addition two world wars one of which was unnecessary. And that's not taking into account the mass slaughters which gave us this land to begin with. We've put more money into military development than any country in the history of the world. We have more nuclear weapons and far more effective payloads and delivery systems than any other nation could fathom. And we've got chuck norris. How can you say US citizens don't like to fight?

Oh, to a few of your points. Individual low level warfare is the most effective resistance to overpowering tech and training (see vietnam, russian/afgan conflicts, current situation in Iraq).

And wouldn't the military (comprised only of US citizens) overthrowing the goverment be exactely the violent revolution you just said wouldn't happen?

A lot of men are neutered everywhere, I blame pop music and hugh grant movies.

 

[Paradoxium]

We've had two revolutions in a short period of our country's history, we started with a revolution in fact. And that's not counting the dozens of revolutions we've either implemented, aided or instigated. In addition two world wars one of which was unnecessary. And that's not taking into account the mass slaughters which gave us this land to begin with. We've put more money into military development than any country in the history of the world. We have more nuclear weapons and far more effective payloads and delivery systems than any other nation could fathom. And we've got chuck norris. How can you say US citizens don't like to fight?

Changes nothing in my thought process. I never said there wouldn't be any, there will be some who will fight. But I think a huge chunk will fold like a cheap tent, particularly in the urban areas. And the demographics are considerably different back then to now. This is how I rationalized it.

 

[Paradoxium]

Oh, to a few of your points. Individual low level warfare is the most effective resistance to overpowering tech and training (see vietnam, russian/afgan conflicts, current situation in Iraq).

And wouldn't the military (comprised only of US citizens) overthrowing the goverment be exactely the violent revolution you just said wouldn't happen?

A lot of men are neutered everywhere, I blame pop music and hugh grant movies.

I agree small tactical unit are effective. I have been an advocate of 4th Gen warfare. This is the Achilles Heel of the American military.

edit: when I said the military will turn on them, I mean they simply will stop taking orders. But whether they overthrow the government is a different story. I don't think everyone in the military will follow suit - it will be fragmented in their decisions to do what.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Changes nothing in my thought process. I never said there wouldn't be any, there will be some who will fight. But I think a huge chunk will fold like a cheap tent, particularly in the urban areas. And the demographics are considerably different back then to now. This is how I rationalized it.

But that's true about any nation in the history of the world. A few actively want to fight, many decide to fight for a cause, and the majority are conscripted to fight. Considering our "warmongering" status by the rest of the world, it's funny you feel we're less apt to get into a conflict.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I agree small tactical unit are effective. I have been an advocate of 4th Gen warfare. This is the Achilles Heel of the American military.

I agree small tactical unit are effective. I have been an advocate of 4th Gen warfare. This is the Achilles Heel of the any advanced army thoughout the history of the world.

^fixed.

edit: when I said the military will turn on them, I mean they simply will stop taking orders. But whether they overthrow the government is a different story. I don't think everyone in the military will follow suit - it will be fragmented in their decisions to do what.

Uh, if they stop taking orders what do you think will happen? They will be cut off from supplies, they will retaliate to take said supplies, violence and wackiness ensue. And sure every revolution if fragmented. Again you're not really bringing up any US exclusive points here, it's pretty general thoughout the world. And in terms of violence especially when considered in terms of a countries life span, the US is pretty much the most fightinest country evah.

 

[Paradoxium]

I agree small tactical unit are effective. I have been an advocate of 4th Gen warfare. This is the Achilles Heel of the any advanced army thoughout the history of the world.

^fixed.



Uh, if they stop taking orders what do you think will happen? They will be cut off from supplies, they will retaliate to take said supplies, violence and wackiness ensue. And sure every revolution if fragmented. Again you're not really bringing up any US exclusive points here, it's pretty general thoughout the world. And in terms of violence especially when considered in terms of a countries life span, the US is pretty much the most fightinest country evah.

So what? Lose a few battles here and there but the war is a different story.

Like I said, I don't doubt for a moment there will be people of passion who believe in what they are fighting. In fact some of which will be organized, or have the backing of dissenting military. Hell they might be able to sustain and put up a fight, but it doesn't mean they will win. I just simply think - mostly my cynicism - a huge chunk of America will fold like a cheap tent, and this "side" will maintain the upper hand in terms of firepower. If these small fractured communities (but highly organized) were to win, it would require some fire power outside of the United States, or else it could drag on for a LOOOOOOOONG time.

 

[moraldeficiency]

So what? Lose a few battles here and there but the war is a different story.

Like I said, I don't doubt for a moment there will be people of passion who believe in what they are fighting. In fact some of which will be organized, or have the backing of dissenting military. Hell they might be able to sustain and put up a fight, but it doesn't mean they will win. I just simply think - mostly my cynicism - a huge chunk of America will fold like a cheap tent, and this "side" will maintain the upper hand in terms of firepower. If these small fractured communities (but highly organized) were to win, it would require some fire power outside of the United States, or else it could drag on for a LOOOOOOOONG time.

I don't know what you're going for with that first statement but the US has in terms of time as a country been involved in more wars than anyother nation ever.

You're second point can apply to any country ever, so why single out one?

 

[Paradoxium]

I don't know what you're going for with that first statement but the US has in terms of time as a country been involved in more wars than anyother nation ever.

You're second point can apply to any country ever, so why single out one?

Alright I will summarize what I mean instead of my half assing and dragging through this entire discussion.

You need to win the hearts of minds of a population. I think this war has already been lost to a chunk of the population, this is why they will fold very easily. That is the big government will solve everything, and how seriously the constitution is to be taken (instead of bending and twisting it, or ignoring it). How do you fight the fight when the majority seem to support the contrary position? So what if you win, and everyone you "liberate" hates you? Do you understand where I am coming from?

 

[moraldeficiency]

Alright I will summarize what I mean instead of my half assing and dragging through this entire discussion.

You need to win the hearts of minds of a population. I think this war has already been lost to a chunk of the population, this is why they will fold very easily. That is the big government will solve everything, and how seriously the constitution is to be taken (instead of bending and twisting it, or ignoring it). How do you fight the fight when the majority seem to support the contrary position? So what if you win, and everyone you "liberate" hates you? Do you understand where I am coming from?

I get you, I'm just not sure that relates to US citizens being too cowardly to fight. If you look at history, the USA loves it some war or revolution, any will do, we just don't like LONG wars or revolutions. We invented tv's, telephones and cars we like our results now. It's not hard to whip US citizens into a bloodlust it's just hard to maintain that. I believe that's mainly because most US citizens have a certian sense of entitlement that comes from being here.

 

[Paradoxium]

I get you, I'm just not sure that relates to US citizens being too cowardly to fight. If you look at history, the USA loves it some war or revolution, any will do, we just don't like LONG wars or revolutions. We invented tv's, telephones and cars we like our results now. It's not hard to whip US citizens into a bloodlust it's just hard to maintain that. I believe that's mainly because most US citizens have a certian sense of entitlement that comes from being here.

Imagine someone with the belief that some central authority will fix societies' problems and offer security all in the name of the "greater good". The trade off is the expense of certain liberties. Just sit back, tune out and let them or someone else deal with everything; the path of least resistance. Is this not cowardly? And do you think someone like this would want to fight? I think you are underestimating this mindset.

Think about it.

Wanting all the benefits freedom theoretically entails, but none of the consequences. This is why you have neutered guys more worried about asking girls out on a damn date, let alone operate a piece of hardware to wound and/or kill someone. Is this not cowardly?

Does this remind you of anything?

I guess my point is, I don't think a Revolution to refind the United States in its current shape or size will ever happen. But the principles and the constitution will remain strong in certain regions.

Perhaps the day America is built more on self-efficacy and not self-esteem will things turn around....

 

[SuBe]

We didn't invent Cars.

 

[moraldeficiency]

We didn't invent Cars.

hmmm, no we didn't. Learned something. Gracias.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Imagine someone with the belief that some central authority will fix societies' problems and offer security all in the name of the "greater good". The trade off is the expense of certain liberties. Just sit back, tune out and let them or someone else deal with everything; the path of least resistance. Is this not cowardly? And do you think someone like this would want to fight? I think you are underestimating this mindset.

Think about it.

Wanting all the benefits freedom theoretically entails, but none of the consequences. This is why you have neutered guys more worried about asking girls out on a damn date, let alone operate a piece of hardware to wound and/or kill someone. Is this not cowardly?

Does this remind you of anything?

I guess my point is, I don't think a Revolution to refind the United States in its current shape or size will ever happen. But the principles and the constitution will remain strong in certain regions.

Perhaps the day America is built more on self-efficacy and not self-esteem will things turn around....

You just describe Rome, Greece, Britian, France, Spain, Portugal and every other "civilized" nation throughout history though.

You're mistaking cowardace for complacency. People here are so used to getting everything they want instantly that the thought of working for a while towards something is inconcievable. But in terms of jumping into a fight, we're always leading the way there.

We're you ever in the service? Not calling you out or anything just curious, cause I was and you'd meet some gun-ho mother ****ers there that might change your mind.

Killing people is a lot harder than dating. Killing a man is point and click convienant, but dating a chick involves probing into the female mind a far darker and chaotic place I assure you.

 

[Paradoxium]

You just describe Rome, Greece, Britian, France, Spain, Portugal and every other "civilized" nation throughout history though.

You're mistaking cowardace for complacency. People here are so used to getting everything they want instantly that the thought of working for a while towards something is inconcievable. But in terms of jumping into a fight, we're always leading the way there.

We're you ever in the service? Not calling you out or anything just curious, cause I was and you'd meet some gun-ho mother ****ers there that might change your mind.

Killing people is a lot harder than dating. Killing a man is point and click convienant, but dating a chick involves probing into the female mind a far darker and chaotic place I assure you.

I know a number of those too - I know what you are talking about, so you don't have to convince me.

And I was just contrasting extremes (shoot/date); half serious.

AND honestly, I think my thinking and cynicism stems from a high exposure to very collectivist / socialist types. Try being an individualist when a number of your friends are basically hardcore communists, you will start gnawing your hands off. I pretty much avoid talking about politics in real life, save for with a few friends with similar mindsets.