Praised American Leaders You Dislike

[BatMatt]

Come on guys, I don't care how horrible they are, a president attacking their own would-be assassin is bad ass. It is the equivilant to Air Force One Harrison Ford of the 1800s. Plus, I feel like Jackson gets an unfair rap. Many people are willing to write off Thomas Jefferson and Abe Lincoln's racism as, "They were just products of their time," but Jackson is held to a different standard. Jackson had many accomplishments as president and whatever his shortcomings they deserve recognition.

Thank you

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Lincoln's racism is written off for good reason, though.

But any President that is at all like Harrison Ford is fine by me.

I wish he'd run for President. I'd vote for him. Twice.

 

[Doomed_hero]

By evolved do you mean opted to get rid of slavery to ensure the Brits sided with the Union instead of the Confederacy?

it was a good political move as well I do not question that, however I truely do not belive he was as racist as you make him. He wanted to in sure there right to suffrage after the war as well.

 

[Matt]

No he didn't. Look at the link I posted. Lincoln wished to have the slaves deported to an African or Panamanian colony.

 

[StorminNorman]

I think a politician should be regarded more based on what he did than what he believed in. Lincoln may have wanted to eat black babies, the fact is though he did more for African Americans than almost any other single person. His motives are meaningless.

 

[Matt]

I agree in principle. My point is, it is almost trendy to hate on Jackson for his prejuidices against Native Americans where as with Lincoln or Jefferson when someone plays the racism card you get the response, "Well, they were just products of their time." It is a double standard.

I also get a kick out of all the posts in the satire thread from the day after Obama won of Lincoln celebrating when Lincoln was a notoriously racist man.

 

[StorminNorman]

It's important to note that Jackson slaughtered Native Americans, though

 

[Matt]

And Lincoln wiped his ass with the Constitution and used his power to declare war on citizens who seceded legally.

 

[StorminNorman]

Neither were racist acts.

 

[Addendum]

Who knew Matt wants to be a confederate

 

[Matt]

Neither were racist acts.

No, but proposing to "deport all negroes because they cannot be expected to live civilly in freedom," is fairly racist.

Who knew Matt wants to be a confederate

Not really. I simply maintain the states had the right to secede. Of course, there is no point in arguing this with you again. After all, you believe that the right to kill a baby is inalienable, but the tenth amendment is not.

 

[Addendum]

From Alexander Stephen's Cornerstone Speech in March 1861,

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.

I see nothing to respect about such a nation. Your mileage may vary.

And I never said that "the right to kill a baby is unalienable" despite how you've convinced yourself I have. I simply said that I have no problem with a legal medical procedure, which is precisely what abortion is, and that I'm not going to tell a woman what to do. It's her decision alone.

 

[Matt]

Again, it has nothing to do with their country, but with ours. You oppose the invasion of Iraq, right Addendum? But you do not oppose the invasion of another foreign country? The states had the right to secede.

 

[Addendum]

Stephens' words carry far more weight than yours since he was involved, and he knew precisely what it was about.

Have fun defending a failed nation.

Moving from the thread hijack and back to the topic of the thread, I'd have to say Reagan

 

[Matt]

History provides perspective. Someone involved is often too close to the puzle to see the whole picture. Nice cop out though.

 

[StorminNorman]

Stephens' words carry far more weight than yours since he was involved, and he knew precisely what it was about.

Have fun defending a failed nation.

Moving from the thread hijack and back to the topic of the thread, I'd have to say Reagan

Matt's not defending the Confederacy's ideology, he's stating that they had the right to do it.

I don't agree with Keith Olbermann, but I know he has the right to say whatever he wants.

 

[Matt]

Exactly.

 

[Addendum]

History provides perspective. Someone involved is often too close to the puzle to see the whole picture. Nice cop out though.

Yeah yeah, we get it. Lincoln raped your mother, and Obama ran over your dog. Move the **** on.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I don't see any particular problem with pointing out that both Lincoln and Jefferson were racists. Its these types of revelations that allow us a better understanding of how and why historical figures do what they do.

To disagree with what someone said earlier, motives are everything. There are a large number of people who believe that the Civil War was started to "free the slaves", there are also people who think that our first dance with Saddam Hussein was in 1991 (and not, mind you, in 1979). Good recollections of history provide us an invaluable window into motives and what they can cause. One large reason for studying history is to avoid making foolish mistakes. And seeing and understanding contradictions in powerful people (Jefferson, ect) help us to avoid making the mistakes they made.

 

[Kelly]

Yeah yeah, we get it. Lincoln raped your mother, and Obama ran over your dog. Move the **** on.

Ya gotta be ready for some heat in here Add, it goes with the territory...don't take it personally, its not meant to be.


And debating the acts of Presidents in this discussion, is on topic. You may disagree, but it is on topic...

 

[Addendum]

Ya gotta be ready for some heat in here Add, it goes with the territory...don't take it personally, its not meant to be.

Whatever "heat" there is, I find meaningless and disregard it. Matt has some hatred of Lincoln and Obama, and I simply mock it.

 

[Kelly]

Whatever "heat" there is, I find meaningless and disregard it. Matt has some hatred of Lincoln and Obama, and I simply mock it.

Give good evidence for your opinions and let that speak for itself....

 

[StorminNorman]

We need to spend less time devoted to Matt's hatred of Lincoln/Obama and more time focused on my super gigantic fun time man crush on Alexander Hamilton.

 

[hippie_hunter]

We need to spend less time devoted to Matt's hatred of Lincoln/Obama and more time focused on my super gigantic fun time man crush on Alexander Hamilton.

But everyone has their own super gigantic fun time man crush .

 

[StorminNorman]

We need a thread dedicated to Political Man Crushes.