Praised American Leaders You Dislike

[StorminNorman]

The "Future of the Republican Party" thread brought up the always popular discussion of the actual quality of beloved past Presidents. I thought we needed a thread over such discussion.

Thomas Jefferson was a hypocritical, racist coward who hid behind an act of charm and occasional naivety while being one of the most manipulative politicians we have ever had in Washington. Jefferson cared much more about his own interest groups (southern farmers) than he did the nation as a whole and was a significantly less important player in its creation than he is often credited as. He is remembered most fondly for writing words he himself did not believe in.

He was a brilliant mind, a beautiful writer and a creative genius, but as an American leader he was lacking.

It's a shame that every American child knows his name, yet few know anything about Alexander Hamilton outside of his presence on the 10 dollar bill.

 

[voyzovrezon]

Wow! I don't know where you dislike for Jefferson comes from Norman, but you write as if you knew him personally.

I think Jefferson was a pivotal element in the founding of the constitution. He may have been hypocritical concerning his stance on slavery, but how many politicians do you know of that arent' hypocritical in some way?

He supported church and state separation (of which I most admire him for) and from what I know, he supported states rights. Isn't that what most conservatives today want--state's rights?

 

[StorminNorman]

Wow! I don't know where you dislike for Jefferson comes from Norman, but you write as if you knew him personally.

I think Jefferson was a pivotal element in the founding of the constitution. He may have been hypocritical concerning his stance on slavery, but how many politicians do you know of that arent' hypocritical in some way?

He supported church and state separation (of which I most admire him for) and from what I know, he supported states rights. Isn't that what most conservatives today want--state's rights?

My dislike comes from understanding, Ms. Voyzo.

You would be incorrect. Jefferson had no direct impact on the constitution. While it was written, he was in France. He wasn't a big fan, believing it gave too much power to the central government. He almost preferred the insufferable Articles of Confederation.

Jefferson's supported states rights to a ridiculous extreme. Jefferson's fight for states rights is much different than the ones conservatives fight for today. Jefferson's "states rights" called for a central government that had very little power on states, conservatives do not wish for the destruction of the federal government - at least not yet.

Jefferson's hypocrisy on slavery is not limited to simply his owning of slaves. He believed the negro was inferior to the white man, as such his beautiful words on the Declaration of Independence were as hollow as Obama's chants of Hope and Change.

Jefferson is truly the father of the modern democratic party: cowardly, hypocritical and caring more about his supporters than that of the country as a whole. Manipulation wrapped around a cloak of enlightenment and liberalism.

 

[voyzovrezon]

Well then...

I've never been a fan of Ronald Reagan. It puzzles me why he is placed on a pedestal by conservatives when he increased spending. I remember my taxes going up under his administration.

And lest not forget his wife Nancy was actually running things in the last years of his presidency.

And do we really want to go into Iran-Contra? Did Reagan lie about it, or had he just forgotten about it when questioned?

 

[BatMatt]

I too have never been big on Reagan, he got a lot of praise after his death (which is normal of course) but I am not happy with the way he addressed the growing AIDS situation, and tearing solar panels off the White House was beyond stupid.

 

[StorminNorman]

Reagan got a lot of praise before his death.

I am very conflicted on Reagan. I liked a lot of what he did, and his charisma was very important to this country. He was not the hero conservatives make him out to be and I much preferred his mentor, Barry Goldwater.

The idea that Nancy was running the White House during his Presidency, or that Alzheimer's affected him during his time is ridiculous and misinformed.

 

[BatMatt]

Reagan got a lot of praise before his death.

Yes, I'm aware, but after he died, he was held in very high regard for awhile. Even his critics were rather silient

 

[Matt]

Reagan as well for me. So overrated. I'm also not a fan of Lincoln. The man was notoriously racist (his plan for after the Civil War was to round up all black people and send them to Africa or Panama). Basically all the good that he had done with slavery was simply political posturing. On top of that, his inept leadership is a big reason the Civil War lasted as long as it did and he practically trampled the Constitution.

 

[Matt]

Yes, I'm aware, but after he died, he was held in very high regard for awhile. Even his critics were rather silient

Yeah, the post-death praise got a bit absurd. A few months after his death there was that big AOL-Time Warner poll that had a special on CNN had Reagan at number one.

 

[StorminNorman]

Yeah, the post-death praise got a bit absurd. A few months after his death there was that big AOL-Time Warner poll that had a special on CNN had Reagan at number one.

IMO, that's better than any poll that has FDR in that spot.

 

[Matt]

It seems like most recent polls give it to Lincoln. It is really whoever is fresh in people's minds. Reagan won after his death and now that Obama has been doing everything he can to create a parallel with Lincoln, Lincoln has been getting a lot of attention. If Obama went for a Washington or Jefferson themed inauguration, they would be number 1.

 

[StorminNorman]

Washington was the greatest President, in no smart because Alexander Hamilton was his right hand man.

If there was no Hamilton, there would be no country.

 

[BatMatt]

It seems like most recent polls give it to Lincoln. It is really whoever is fresh in people's minds. Reagan won after his death and now that Obama has been doing everything he can to create a parallel with Lincoln, Lincoln has been getting a lot of attention. If Obama went for a Washington or Jefferson themed inauguration, they would be number 1.

Ranking the President's really isn't fair because so much is based on reputation. Some deserve to be high on the list like Washington, and when people like Kennedy are placed 6th, you know something is wrong. I like JFK enough, but he was in office for so little time that it's ridiculous to think he was better than 37 other people. The latest CSPAN poll has Nixon at 27, which is 4 spots lower than Grant for god's sake. No way around these type of results in the mainstream, which is unfortunate.

Washington was the greatest President, in no smart because Alexander Hamilton was his right hand man.

If there was no Hamilton, there would be no country.

Absolutely, I can never speak highly enough about Hamilton

 

[Matt]

Washington was the greatest President, in no smart because Alexander Hamilton was his right hand man.

If there was no Hamilton, there would be no country.

You know, some historians will argue that Hamilton wanted to once again over throw the new government (just as the framers had a silent coup against the government established by the Articles of Confederation) and create one that would allow him to be president, which was impossible under the Constitutional government as he was born in the Caribbean. Not sure how true it is, but I have read a few historians arguing the point.

 

[StorminNorman]

You know, some historians will argue that Hamilton wanted to once again over throw the new government (just as the framers had a silent coup against the government established by the Articles of Confederation) and create one that would allow him to be president, which was impossible under the Constitutional government as he was born in the Caribbean. Not sure how true it is, but I have read a few historians arguing the point.

And those historians would be completely wrong. Hamilton's biggest failure was dying before 50, allowing figures like Adams and Jefferson to define him after his death. Hamilton devoted his life to establishing, and preserving, the Constitution - even if it was not the government structure he proposed at the convention.

The idea that he wanted to overthrow the government because he couldn't be President is preposterous because Hamilton COULD have run for President. The "natural born citizen" clause did not pertain to citizens living in America at the time of the revolution.

 

[Matt]

And those historians would be completely wrong. Hamilton's biggest failure was dying before 50, allowing figures like Adams and Jefferson to define him after his death. Hamilton devoted his life to establishing, and preserving, the Constitution - even if it was not the government structure he proposed at the convention.

The idea that he wanted to overthrow the government because he couldn't be President is preposterous because Hamilton COULD have run for President. The "natural born citizen" clause did not pertain to citizens living in America at the time of the revolution.

Meh, like I said, just something I read a couple times. I've never put more stock into it than I have the gay Lincoln theory. Hamilton was young for all his accomplishments and definitely did die too young.

 

[StorminNorman]

Ron Chernow's biography on Alexander Hamilton is one of the most fascinating books I have ever read. He provides a fantastic objective narrative of Hamilton's entire life - it's the only book to focus on his life as a whole and not simply one aspect of it.

 

[Paradoxium]

FDR.

Does Woodrow Wilson and Lyndon Johnson count?

 

[BatMatt]

I've never considered Woodrow Wilson or Lyndon Johnson figures who have been praised

 

[Paradoxium]

I've never considered Woodrow Wilson or Lyndon Johnson figures who have been praised

Well if not those two, the obvious other one is Reagan.

 

[danielisthor]

Abe Lincoln.

He gets credit for freeing the slaves, but did so only to keep the British from siding with the South. He deported a Federal Judge who spoke out against him and was really the first President who infringed on the rights of his citizens.

 

[souvlaki]

Ronald Reagan, without a doubt. Also, even though it was reading a biography about Kennedy when I was a child that initially sparked my interest in politics, the older I get the more I think he wasn't nearly as good of a President as he is made out to be. At the very least he's the most overrated President of all time.

 

[danielisthor]

Ronald Reagan, without a doubt. Also, even though it was reading a biography about Kennedy when I was a child that initially sparked my interest in politics, the older I get the more I think he wasn't tharly as good of a President as he is made out to be. At the very least he's the most overrated President of all time.

Probably right, other than kick starting the space program and nailing Monroe and Angie Dickinson, what else does he have to show for. Cuban Missle Crisis? Bay of Pigs?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Probably right, other than kick starting the space program and nailing Monroe and Angie Dickinson, what else does he have to show for. Cuban Missle Crisis? Bay of Pigs?

Anyone could have gotten the same result in the Cuban Missile Crisis that Kennedy did. Common sense was what allowed disaster to be averted, not some kind of special magic leadership powers that Kennedy uniquely possessed. Warmongering George W. Bush could have gotten the same result.

JFK = Most overrated man in the history of the entire world.

 

[Malice]

Clinton, the best Republican President we have had since Reagan.


I didn't like him, but really did ok...not bad...not good in most things...