The Gun Thread

[Super Kal]

those guns are fun to shoot my wife prefers that model

 

[Kable24]

I'm definitely getting a .357 revolver after I got to shoot my dad's Colt Trooper MKIII this weekend.

 

[Siby]

I'm thinking of picking up a .22 revolver or a .357 revolver that can shoot the .38 ammo. There are also some nice 16-20 gauge Winchester and Remington shotguns at the store near me.

What do you think, should I go with the .22 revolver or move right up to the .357?

I wanted to add that I did get my concealed weapons license also.

 

[Kable24]

If you want it for conceal carry then go with a small .357/.38 A .22 can be deadly, but it's mostly for hunting small game and plinking.

 

[Spider-Who?]

why do they get a bad rep?

I think it just comes down to gun snobs bashing it.

In my experience, they've been fairly unreliable - poor parts, bad construction (it shouldn't take 5 minutes of struggling to remove the slide stop). I've heard people say that they are quite happy with their Taurus firearms, but I guess it really depends on the model - there isn't too much that you can mess up on a revolver compared to a semi-auto pistol.

 

[Spider-Who?]

I'm thinking of picking up a .22 revolver or a .357 revolver that can shoot the .38 ammo. There are also some nice 16-20 gauge Winchester and Remington shotguns at the store near me.

What do you think, should I go with the .22 revolver or move right up to the .357?

I don't know what your level of familiarity and experience with firearms are, but as with all things concerning guns, if you are inexperienced, unsure and/or unfamiliar, starting with a smaller caliber is advisable. I also strongly advise finding someone who is qualified/instructor to guide you through any and all gun use.

Don't be fooled by anyone who says they chose their (or try to sell you a) gun based on "stopping power" (ie: the caliber's innate ability to knock the target down). Outside of a target being unbalanced when struck, no pistol caliber has the force to literally knock someone down - it's simple physics - if the bullet leaving the gun is too weak to knock YOU over, the bullet will not have the force to knock the threat over.

The only real qualifier is the amount of damage done, and in that regard, the differences between the popular 9mm, .357/.38 and .45 rounds are negligible...there's only a .001" difference between a 9mm and .357.

There IS a difference in penetration (not to be confused with basic damage ability), however, but we're only talking a few inches, and it is highly dependent on the distance from the target, grain of the bullet, and other factors. Some people prefer deeper penetration, but I do not - the less likely a bullet is to pass through the target or an object and hit someone/something else, the better. This is especially important to consider in home defense: god forbid you miss the intruder and the bullet goes through a wall and hits an innocent (but hopefully you are mindful of the backdrop in any shooting situation).

Though it is best to use if you are just starting out, the .22 is about as small and weak as you can get. A well placed shot can certainly be lethal (ie: striking an artery or the bullet bouncing around in the body), but that would require a very well placed/angled shot. Not to forget the fact that .22s are rimfire bullets, which have poor accuracy and a high misfire rate. If the point of your conceal carry is for protection, a .22 is better served as a paper weight.

When choosing a firearm for defense/conceal carry, its a balancing act between what feels comfortable on your person and what will best perform to your expectations. I don't carry often but when I do, I carry a 9mm (with hollow point rounds) - it might have slightly less penetration than a .45, but the smaller caliber allows for more ammo and quicker target requisition than a larger caliber, and the hollow point allows for greater damage. In any case, you can't go wrong with the .357 Colt MKIII, though I personally prefer magazine-fed pistols for the ammo count and speed/ease of reloading.

How is that 357 revolver or any revolver to shoot? Is it crazy loud, strong kickback?

All guns are loud - it's a controlled explosion in your hands every time you fire - so proper ear protection is advised whenever you shoot, regardless of the caliber. Even a little 22 can damage your ears. I always shake my head when I see guys who think they're too cool to wear protection at the range. Glasses and ear buds, all the time, every time.

In terms of recoil, that is something affected by many factors, including:

• weight of the gun
• caliber of the bullet (obviously), but the bullet's grain weight can vary by manufacture and will affect the speed and force of recoil (a .357 with 85GR will have a faster but less extreme recoil than a .357 with 140GR)
• the length of the barrel (shorter barrel = bigger recoil)
• grip design (most revolver grips are curved to allow the gun to "roll" back in your hand, reducing the impact of the recoil)
• addition of a muzzle brake (ports in the barrel that help push the exiting gases against the natural movement of the pistol, reducing recoil)
• properly seating the gun in your hands/proper firing technique

There are a plethora of attachments/mods you could look into to reduce recoil, but honestly, recoil (especially when concerned with pistols) is not your enemy, nor is it something to be scared of - that's half the fun of shooting, IMO. Naturally, it IS something you have to be aware of and used to, as a gun with an unexpected kick can be quite dangerous.

As far as the .357 goes, I wouldn't consider the recoil to be extreme at all; for a pistol round, it's pretty average/middle of the road in that regard, but again, it will vary from gun to gun.

Here's a helpful chart on average recoil amounts of various bullets/firearms:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm

 

[Super Kal]

siby: the heavier the gun, the less recoil you will have.
i was surprised at how much recoil the .357 round had with the .357 revolver... i havent shot it since for a while, but i do plan on going to the gun range and trying ti again to get used to the recoil, but spider-who is right... recoil is not your enemy.

in order for me to conceal my Ruger .357, i'll probably need a western carrier, but when i shoot a .38 special through my .357, i know the recoil is going to be minimal, because of how heavy the revolver is

thats why i like my .357
my wife and I went to Dury's Gun Shop here in San Antonio, and for a handgun, i recommended her a .38 special, however once she found out that a revolver that can ONLY shoot the .38 special, it has more recoil with that revolver than the .357 does...

so i would definitely recommend to you a heavier handgun to help with recoil issues

 

[Siby]

I don't know what your level of familiarity and experience with firearms are, but as with all things concerning guns, if you are inexperienced, unsure and/or unfamiliar, starting with a smaller caliber is advisable. I also strongly advise finding someone who is qualified/instructor to guide you through any and all gun use.

Don't be fooled by anyone who says they chose their (or try to sell you a) gun based on "stopping power" (ie: the caliber's innate ability to knock the target down). Outside of a target being unbalanced when struck, no pistol caliber has the force to literally knock someone down - it's simple physics - if the bullet leaving the gun is too weak to knock YOU over, the bullet will not have the force to knock the threat over.

The only real qualifier is the amount of damage done, and in that regard, the differences between the popular 9mm, .357/.38 and .45 rounds are negligible...there's only a .001" difference between a 9mm and .357.

There IS a difference in penetration (not to be confused with basic damage ability), however, but we're only talking a few inches, and it is highly dependent on the distance from the target, grain of the bullet, and other factors. Some people prefer deeper penetration, but I do not - the less likely a bullet is to pass through the target or an object and hit someone/something else, the better. This is especially important to consider in home defense: god forbid you miss the intruder and the bullet goes through a wall and hits an innocent (but hopefully you are mindful of the backdrop in any shooting situation).

Though it is best to use if you are just starting out, the .22 is about as small and weak as you can get. A well placed shot can certainly be lethal (ie: striking an artery or the bullet bouncing around in the body), but that would require a very well placed/angled shot. Not to forget the fact that .22s are rimfire bullets, which have poor accuracy and a high misfire rate. If the point of your conceal carry is for protection, a .22 is better served as a paper weight.

When choosing a firearm for defense/conceal carry, its a balancing act between what feels comfortable on your person and what will best perform to your expectations. I don't carry often but when I do, I carry a 9mm (with hollow point rounds) - it might have slightly less penetration than a .45, but the smaller caliber allows for more ammo and quicker target requisition than a larger caliber, and the hollow point allows for greater damage. In any case, you can't go wrong with the .357 Colt MKIII, though I personally prefer magazine-fed pistols for the ammo count and speed/ease of reloading.



All guns are loud - it's a controlled explosion in your hands every time you fire - so proper ear protection is advised whenever you shoot, regardless of the caliber. Even a little 22 can hurt your ears. I always shake my head when I see guys who think they're too cool to wear protection at the range. Glasses and ear buds, all the time, every time.

In terms of recoil, that is something affected by many factors, including:

• weight of the gun
• caliber of the bullet (obviously), but the bullet's grain weight can very by manufacture and will affect the speed and force of recoil (a .357 with 85GR will have a faster but less extreme recoil than a .357 with 140GR)
• the length of the barrel (shorter barrel = bigger recoil)
• grip design (most revolver grips are curved to allow the gun to "roll" back in your hand, reducing the impact of the recoil)
• addition of a muzzle brake (ports in the barrel that help push the exiting gases against the natural movement of the pistol, reducing recoil)
• properly seating the gun in your hands/proper firing technique

There are a plethora of attachments/mods you could look into to reduce recoil, but honestly, recoil (especially when concerned with pistols) is not your enemy, nor is it something to be scared of - that's half the fun of shooting, IMO. Naturally, it IS something you have to be aware of and used to, as a gun with an unexpected kick can be quite dangerous.

As far as the .357 goes, I wouldn't consider the recoil to be extreme at all; for a pistol round, it's pretty average/middle of the road in that regard.

Here's a helpful chart on average recoil amounts of various bullets/firearms:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm

Wow! Thank you very much for your information. I will refer to it often.

The number one rule I have with the weapons is knowledge. Everybody in my family will know what the guns are about, and safety. I plan on taking safety classes, or getting instruction from a professional regarding proper usage and safety considerations.

Owing and using guns is not a matter of "coolness" or feeling macho. It's about having fun, and about learning to be a good marksman.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Wow! Thank you very much for your information. I will refer to it often.....I plan on taking safety classes, or getting instruction from a professional regarding proper usage and safety considerations.

Not a problem.

Have you not taken any safety/training courses yet? I saw earlier that you have already gotten your conceal permit...does your state not require completion of a course to receive a CC permit?

So my question is, if my guns are locked in the safe how can I safely store/use the handgun for defense if, God forbid, the need ever arises?

I cant speak on any kind of authority as i keep my Walther on my nightstand....

You can buy small safes that hold one to two pistols and are made be hidden but within reach (can fit inside a dresser drawer, secured underneath the top of a bedside table, etc). And these types of safes are typically a digital combo lock, where you have to press a series of un-numbered buttons in a user-defined order - if someone is just trying to guess the combo and fails X times, the safe locks them out and you can only open it with a key.

I have one of these types of safes and it's great. Very quick and easy to access - just a few quick finger movements and the door snaps open when the lock is disengaged.

Biometric safes are getting cheaper these days as well, and they're obviously far harder to break into.

 

[Siby]

Went to the range today and it was so much fun shooting the .22 rifle. My kids were amazing, they both hit balloons at 100 yards.

Spider-Who?, I have not taken any safety/training courses yet, nor does the state require it. I'm checking out the different gun clubs in my area and when I find one I like I am hoping to get more information and the proper training.

 

[Ash J. Williams]

siby: the heavier the gun, the less recoil you will have.
i was surprised at how much recoil the .357 round had with the .357 revolver... i havent shot it since for a while, but i do plan on going to the gun range and trying ti again to get used to the recoil, but spider-who is right... recoil is not your enemy.

in order for me to conceal my Ruger .357, i'll probably need a western carrier, but when i shoot a .38 special through my .357, i know the recoil is going to be minimal, because of how heavy the revolver is

thats why i like my .357
my wife and I went to Dury's Gun Shop here in San Antonio, and for a handgun, i recommended her a .38 special, however once she found out that a revolver that can ONLY shoot the .38 special, it has more recoil with that revolver than the .357 does...

so i would definitely recommend to you a heavier handgun to help with recoil issues

I wonder if the weight of the load also has to do with. Because I load my own ammo and sometimes when I shoot my .38 Ruger Vaqueros, I feel those loads and it seems like there's a bit more recoil. Perhaps the weight of the load doesn't affect the recoil, though.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Yes. The more powder you have, the more gas is created when the primer is struck. The more gases you have expanding and trying to leave the gun, the greater the recoil. It'll be a "slower" recoil, but more wide in its motion that a bullet with a lighter load (which will be faster but smaller motion).

There are tables you can find online that illustrate the recoil and bullet velocities of various load weights.

 

[Kable24]

I went to a gun show today and picked up a Cobray M11. I've been wanting one of these for a few years now and they are slowly becoming harder and harder to find.

 

[Siby]

That silencer is huge. lol

Is that like an Uzi that we used to see back in the 80s tv shows?

I got a Remington 20 gauge shotgun a couple of days ago. I'm hoping to try it out tomorrow or sometime next week.

 

[Kable24]

That silencer is huge. lol

Is that like an Uzi that we used to see back in the 80s tv shows?

I got a Remington 20 gauge shotgun a couple of days ago. I'm hoping to try it out tomorrow or sometime next week.

It's based off the MAC11 sub machine gun.

 

[KalMart]

Just picked up a Beretta PX4 Storm Compact in 9mm. Very nicely made little pistol that shoots quite comfortably. Got a nice priced new as well, as it was on sale at one of my local shops. Not normally into traditional double-actions, but I like the format of this one.

 

[KalMart]

Oh also, forgot to mention that I finally got a Walther PPQ a little while back.

If you can imagine a Glock that has a trigger like a target/competition gun, points better and has more ergonomic curves/grip…that's the PPQ. Trigger is so clean that it's almost disturbingly light for a striker in a carry gun with no external safety. But really, as long as the same safety practices are followed as with any Glock then it's just as safe.

 

[KalMart]

Had some recent work done on the Glock 21SF at Delta Level Defense here in CT…some trigger guard undercutting, taking down the finger grooves and a little contouring to the rear tang area. Altogether it grips and points much more comfortably.

With a model 20 10mm slide/barrel/mag, this has replaced my bear gun (formerly a Ruger GP100 .357 magnum) for when I go hiking/fishing upstate.

 

[Canadian Rider]

My understanding was that the load and the type of bullet affected the recoil.
A bullet that is fragmentary in nature will act differently than one that is a solid bullet vs. a hollow point.
I am not an expert but that was always my understanding.
Perhaps someone can elaborate.
I am working on a novel and after writing a portion for the book I got to wondering about it ...

 

[Spider-Who?]

My understanding was that the load and the type of bullet affected the recoil.
A bullet that is fragmentary in nature will act differently than one that is a solid bullet vs. a hollow point.
I am not an expert but that was always my understanding.
Perhaps someone can elaborate.
I am working on a novel and after writing a portion for the book I got to wondering about it ...

Recoil has nothing to do with the type of bullet (ie: hollow point versus wad cutter). Recoil is effected by the amount of gunpowder used. Like I've mentioned earlier, the grain weight of a bullet - or how much gun powder is used - can and will vary from brand to brand. Going a step further, the amount of gun powder used will also vary depending on it's purpose.

You're standard "wad cutter" or round nosed bullet isn't really meant for defense; its a standard practice round, so less gun powder is used.

A hollow point bullet is used for defense, so you want the bullet to go faster and hit harder, so more gun powder is used, meaning a bigger recoil.

So yes, hollow points will typically have a bigger recoil, but it still comes down to the difference in grain weight, not the bullet itself.

 

[Canadian Rider]

Recoil has nothing to do with the type of bullet (ie: hollow point versus wad cutter). Recoil is effected by the amount of gunpowder used. Like I've mentioned earlier, the grain weight of a bullet - or how much gun powder is used - can and will vary from brand to brand. Going a step further, the amount of gun powder used will also vary depending on it's purpose.

You're standard "wad cutter" or round nosed bullet isn't really meant for defense; its a standard practice round, so less gun powder is used.

A hollow point bullet is used for defense, so you want the bullet to go faster and hit harder, so more gun powder is used, meaning a bigger recoil.

So yes, hollow points will typically have a bigger recoil, but it still comes down to the difference in grain weight, not the bullet itself.

Thank you. That's why I asked - you seem to have a great deal of knowledge and I haven't done much research as yet. Just thought I would ask as someone like yourself could provide an answer that was not just details but provide the 'reason' behind the answer.

Coolio.

 

[Spider-Who?]

No problem!

I come from a long line of weapons collectors and pretty much grow up on a gun range, so I guess I've got some knowledge. Weapons - firearms in particular - are some of the most misunderstood things out there, so I'm happy to answer any questions!

 

[Super Kal]

when i have the money again, i wouldn't mind picking this one up

http://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/5884/905402801/wm_6673154.jpg

 

[KalMart]

My understanding was that the load and the type of bullet affected the recoil.
A bullet that is fragmentary in nature will act differently than one that is a solid bullet vs. a hollow point.
I am not an expert but that was always my understanding.
Perhaps someone can elaborate.
I am working on a novel and after writing a portion for the book I got to wondering about it ...

Lighter bullets…especially very light fragmenting ones…often have to be loaded to higher velocities (+P or +P+) to reliably cycle the slide and to have satisfactory ballistics. With a lower mass projectile, there isn't as much back pressure/resistance/inertia as the expanding gasses push it out of the barrel. So you can end up with 'short strokes' on the slide that can result in failures to eject the spent casing, or failures/hangups when feeding the next round in and so on. So between a normal/common weight bullet loaded normally and a very light one loaded hot, the effective 'felt' recoil will ultimately be the same or similar, but the lighter bullet will need more force from the powder load to offset the lower inertia of the lighter bullet. So along with gas pressure, it's more about bullet mass rather than the actual profile, but many fragmenting rounds are lower mass anyway.

Each different bullet loaded to the same powder pressure would feel/recoil differently, though….just as normal weight bullets loaded to higher pressure/velocities recoil harder than their normally-loaded counterparts. So often a gun owner needs to do some research into whether or not their gun is approved/spec'd by the manufacturer to handle those hotter rounds without premature wear/breakage. Or…the usage of such hotter rounds need to be kept to a minimum as to not accelerate wear. For example, many carriers of .38 Special snub-nose revolvers liked to load with +P rounds to make up for the lost velocity of shorter barrels with regular rounds, but that made an already unpleasant gun even worse to shoot/control and increased wear as well on certain models, so there's often trade-offs. At least with semi-autos one can beef up their recoil spring or the like if they're planning on shooting a lot of extra-velocity rounds, but some models are already robust enough to handle and (more importantly) cycle higher-pressure rounds without issue.

 

[Bruce Banner]

I'm currently attempting to talk down a guy who wants a 600 for a heavy barreled Ruger Security Six 357 magnum. I love an old school revolver but for that price I might as well save up for a new GP100 or Blackhawk Convertible.

EDIT: I will say I much rather have the Security Six though.