The Hype Religion Discussion and Debate thread!

[HenryJ]

I love how religious threads and discussions on 4chan are, on the whole, more civil and logical than this one singular thread. That's a little sad, guys - I mean, I know I'm a newbie and everything, but every single page here is just filled with a strange, weird amount of bitterness and vitriol from both sides that's depressing to see.

Also, it seems that a lot of the arguments being tossed around here are a little reductive in their construction - I know this isn't a philosophy-centric board, but Saint, asking "well, I just don't see why an afterlife is necessary?" seems to kind of miss the point of that essential human component of religion and spirituality in the first place, which is one of the reasons that so many of the larger and more traditionally-constructed faiths place so much of an emphasis on humanitarian acts (for whatever reason) within their philosophy.

I'm probably just stepping right in the middle, here - but, a long while back, I used to be one of the board's go-to religious debaters. Theosophy goes a long way toward providing a larger and overall-unifying theory and framework for the world's common religious consciousness, I've found.

 

[Saint]

Also, it seems that a lot of the arguments being tossed around here are a little reductive in their construction - I know this isn't a philosophy-centric board, but Saint, asking "well, I just don't see why an afterlife is necessary?" seems to kind of miss the point of that essential human component of religion and spirituality in the first place, which is one of the reasons that so many of the larger and more traditionally-constructed faiths place so much of an emphasis on humanitarian acts (for whatever reason) within their philosophy.

What I wrote is that I don't understand how the the absence of an afterlife necessarily leaves life devoid of purpose. I do, of course, understand the appeal and the function of the afterlife as a religious concept. If you feel I've "Missed the point," feel free to respond to my specific arguments. Posting here merely to announce that you have an an understanding that is being missed, frankly, seems pretty *********ory.

Also? Nothing on 4chan is more "civil and logical" than anything, anywhere, ever.

 

[HenryJ]

What I wrote is that I don't understand how the the absence of an afterlife necessarily leaves life devoid of purpose.

Well, I think this is really one of those instances where it's going to always, always come down on an individual basis to a "glass half empty/full" kind of thing - there are two answers at differing extremes to this argument, and both have a logic to them, but they're both too absolute for any kind of breathing room, I think. On the one hand, you have the hardliners, who will tell you beyond any shadow of a doubt that religion itself is the initial moral impulse of the world, and that without the concept of an afterlife to bolster that down, then all is free and rudderless, and a nihilistic vision of the world is revealed. Whatever personal individual meaning someone might find in his every-day life is basically worthless, in this context - particularly because these guys are extremely tunnel-visioned, and seem to think only in terms of societal impact, and then only in a really, really vague and undefined way.

On the other hand, you have the other guys - those guys who see the concept of the afterlife as something meaningless, entirely unnecessary and even detrimental to someone's mental or emotional health, but everybody talks about those guys, all the time. I'm not lumping you in with the latter, understand - but, I don't think either option necessarily veers anywhere near the truth, whatever that might turn out to be.

Also? Nothing on 4chan is more "civil and logical" than anything, anywhere, ever.

Oh, I disagree. While /b/'s pretty terrible on a consistent basis, /r9k/'s a great board with a lot of great opportunities for extended philosophical discussion, among a few others. That's where all the wall-of-text posters go, when they get bored.

Posting here merely to announce that you have an an understanding that is being missed, frankly, seems pretty *********ory.

I don't know that I have any more understanding of theology than anyone in particular - but, I do think that a few of the questions that get repeated over and over and over again in here are kind of redundant. *********ory? Hey, maybe. But, it feels good too.

Speaking of which, where's moviefan2k4?

 

[Saint]

I don't think either option necessarily veers anywhere near the truth, whatever that might turn out to be.

You haven't said anything that disagrees with with anything I wrote, which further compounds my confusion over the "point" that I have apparently "missed."

Oh, I disagree. While /b/'s pretty terrible on a consistent basis, /r9k/'s a great board with a lot of great opportunities for extended philosophical discussion, among a few others. That's where all the wall-of-text posters go, when they get bored.

If you say so. I don't think I'll risk going to see for myself.

Speaking of which, where's moviefan2k4?

Banned.

 

[HenryJ]

You haven't said anything that disagrees with with anything I wrote, which further compounds my confusion over the "point" that I have apparently "missed."

Well, goodness - then, be confused. I'm sure it's good for you, somehow.

If you cannot see a point on which we disagree, then there probably isn't a reason to take this portion of the discussion any further - right?

If you say so. I don't think I'll risk going to see for myself.

Well, suit yourself - but, it seems that for a guy like you, the internet equivalent of like five angry Comic Book Guys in an upside-down pope hat, it'd be the perfect, anonymous arena.

 

[Obi-Ron]

Well, suit yourself - but, it seems that for a guy like you, the internet equivalent of like five angry Comic Book Guys in an upside-down pope hat, it'd be the perfect, anonymous arena.

Goooooooood! The bitterness and vitriol are swelling in you now. Now, strike me down and take your father's place at my side!

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I don't believe everything in Scripture. I believe the Bible was written by man and is therefore not the 100% pure word of God.

Well I somewhat loosely define myself as a Christian, and wavered between agnostic and atheist for most of my life, but I consider myself a Christian at least in its most basic sense because I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ and I view them, not the Bible, as the core of Christianity.

Basically, I believe the Bible may have been "inspired" by God but was written by man, who misinterprets things and fudges things according to his own prejudices and his own political agendas, and it's gone through many translations and editions and versions over the centuries.

I look at Christ's teachings as more pure and straight from the source.

This is exactly what religion should be.

I mean, I can except that Jesus existed. That's very well possible. And I can believe that he had a philosophy, and many people adhered to this philosophy and believed in it being a wonderful and fullfilling way to live.

It's when you bring in all the worship, sin, afterlife, God, special powers, ressurection, son of God stuff that I start to shy away.

But yeah, keep Jesus as a philosopher and as a man who came out with a wonderful set of ethical principles, and i'd probably call myself Christian too.

Also, it seems that a lot of the arguments being tossed around here are a little reductive in their construction - I know this isn't a philosophy-centric board, but Saint, asking "well, I just don't see why an afterlife is necessary?" seems to kind of miss the point of that essential human component of religion and spirituality in the first place, which is one of the reasons that so many of the larger and more traditionally-constructed faiths place so much of an emphasis on humanitarian acts (for whatever reason) within their philosophy.

I really don't think you've explained your point very well here.

You've stated that by saying an afterlife is not a neccesity for enjoy life, Saint has mised 'the point' of some essentual human component of religion...

Could you explain to me what this is? what essential human component of religion requires the afterlife to be a neccesity?

On the one hand, you have the hardliners, who will tell you beyond any shadow of a doubt that religion itself is the initial moral impulse of the world, and that without the concept of an afterlife to bolster that down, then all is free and rudderless, and a nihilistic vision of the world is revealed. Whatever personal individual meaning someone might find in his every-day life is basically worthless, in this context - particularly because these guys are extremely tunnel-visioned, and seem to think only in terms of societal impact, and then only in a really, really vague and undefined way.

On the other hand, you have the other guys - those guys who see the concept of the afterlife as something meaningless, entirely unnecessary and even detrimental to someone's mental or emotional health, but everybody talks about those guys, all the time. I'm not lumping you in with the latter, understand - but, I don't think either option necessarily veers anywhere near the truth, whatever that might turn out to be.

I don't think it's as simple as the two camps.

There are many reasons why people believe in the afterlife, and why they need to to be happy. Lost loved ones. Fear. A sense of purpose. That you aren't suffering for nothing if you are in a terrible place in the world etc.

There are also many reasons why some people believe the afterlife to be unneccesary and an unhealthy thing to be aspiring to. Greed (the want of lots of virgins), superiority complexes, feeling that your friends are going to hell etc.

But there are also people, who would love to believe in the afterlife but simply don't because of scientific proof. And people who would love to believe that hell doesn't exist, but because of their upbringing they will never shake that fear.

 

[Carcharodon]

I fail to see why life must have a meaning in any absolute sense, much less why an afterlife is required to provide such meaning.

 

[Dark Phantom]

I fail to see why life must have a meaning in any absolute sense, much less why an afterlife is required to provide such meaning.

Because with so much suffering in this world, human beings demand answers as to why. That single concept of "why?", has plagued humanity for many a millenium. Since we don't know why we are here; Since we became aware that we existed without prior empathetical knowledge of what came before or what will come after, we demand to know our purpose in this reality.

To retort, I fail to see how some people can have contented lives without questioning the meaning of their very existence.

 

[Carcharodon]

Because with so much suffering in this world, human beings demand answers as to why. That single concept of "why?", has plagued humanity for many a millenium. Since we don't know why we are here; Since we became aware that we existed without prior empathetical knowledge of what came before or what will come after, we demand to know our purpose in this reality.

I believe that the concept of "purpose" is flawed to begin with, but that's just me. I'm not sure I could appropriately articulate my feelings on that issue, however.

To retort, I fail to see how some people can have contented lives without questioning the meaning of their very existence.

So because I don't believe that my life has meaning or purpose in some absolute sense, I didn't arrive at that conclusion via deep questioning and thought?

How does that work?

I have questioned the meaning of my existence. That's how I arrived at this conclusion.

 

[Dark Phantom]

Carcharodon, I think I should rephrase what I meant. Of course the concept of "purpose" is flawed, but then again our very existence is flawed. However, realizing that there is no absolute meaning isn't very practical. I guess for you the most important purpose is to survive. Doesn't that leave you at all empty? Don't you yearn to do more than just survive?

 

[HenryJ]

I fail to see why life must have a meaning in any absolute sense, much less why an afterlife is required to provide such meaning.

That's a pretty bleak outlook to have, I think - even if this meaning didn't necessarily come from a religious impulse.

But, for clarification's sake, what do you mean when you say a meaning?

 

[Saint]

If you cannot see a point on which we disagree, then there probably isn't a reason to take this portion of the discussion any further - right?

I'm only pursuing this discussion in the hopes that you'll finally elaborate on the "point" I'm supposed to have "missed." This is like pulling teeth.

Well, suit yourself - but, it seems that for a guy like you, the internet equivalent of like five angry Comic Book Guys in an upside-down pope hat,

The only accurate part of that statement is probably "Comic Book Guy." Good try, though.

it'd be the perfect, anonymous arena.

No need to be anonymous when you're not ashamed of what you have to say.

 

[Saint]

Carcharodon, I think I should rephrase what I meant. Of course the concept of "purpose" is flawed, but then again our very existence is flawed. However, realizing that there is no absolute meaning isn't very practical. I guess for you the most important purpose is to survive. Doesn't that leave you at all empty? Don't you yearn to do more than just survive?

Well, "No absolute purpose" is not the same as "No purpose." Purpose is not absolute. As I mentioned earlier, purpose is an idea. We made it up. It's malleable, it's exactly what you elect for it to be, it has the value you invest in it and it can change if you want it to. This is the opposite, on every count, of "absolute."

So, no, if Carcharodon says that there is no absolute purpose, this does not necessarily mean that his only purpose is to survive. It means purpose is whatever he decides it to be, because it's not absolute. Of course, I can only speak to my own understanding of his comments; what he actually meant may differ.

 

[Alex The Great]

To retort, I fail to see how some people can have contented lives without questioning the meaning of their very existence.

I exist because my parents ****ed, and because Planet Earth's conditions for orgonsism to evolve :content:

 

[HenryJ]

I'm only pursuing this discussion in the hopes that you'll finally elaborate on the "point" I'm supposed to have "missed." This is like pulling teeth.

Well - essentially, it just seems like a non-question, to me. It doesn't really matter or have any impact on any kind of religious discussion except for one that's searching for validation of one's faith (or lack thereof) in the face of opposition.

I think anyone who would ask this question, while there is a lot of potential fodder there for discussion in another context, kind of misses the point (and, I use that phrase in a general sense) when asking it in lieu of said validation.

The only accurate part of that statement is probably "Comic Book Guy." Good try, though.

...good try at what? Tone it down, dude.

No need to be anonymous when you're not ashamed of what you have to say.

Of course you don't need to, and many don't - but, it's an imageboard. Luckily, one of the great things about imageboards is that you don't have to create an identity for yourself, if you don't want to. Just, hop in and post.

 

[Saint]

Well - essentially, it just seems like a non-question, to me. It doesn't really matter or have any impact on any kind of religious discussion except for one that's searching for validation of one's faith (or lack thereof) in the face of opposition.

I was discussing with Kurosawa the fact that the possibility of no afterlife made him feel meaningless. The question was to encourage him to explain precisely what meaning he felt the possibility of the afterlife gave to his life. I'm not sure why you decided to comment on my posts if you didn't actually read the discussion.

I think anyone who would ask this question, while there is a lot of potential fodder there for discussion in another context, kind of misses the point (and, I use that phrase in a general sense) when asking it in lieu of validation.

I'm sorry, but I asked you what point I have missed, and you've responded "You missed the point." This is not very useful.

...good try at what?

Summarizing my character as "the internet equivalent of like five angry Comic Book Guys in an upside-down pope hat."

Tone it down, dude.

I think you have a significant misconception about my attitude.

 

[StorminNorman]

Any reformed jews in the house?

I'm thinking about converting to Reformed Judaism and I want to know what I should read and how I should go about that.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Because with so much suffering in this world, human beings demand answers as to why. That single concept of "why?", has plagued humanity for many a millenium. Since we don't know why we are here; Since we became aware that we existed without prior empathetical knowledge of what came before or what will come after, we demand to know our purpose in this reality.

To retort, I fail to see how some people can have contented lives without questioning the meaning of their very existence.

But the problem is that some people were raised in a religious environment that didn't allow them to question the meaning of their existence, because they are just accepting what they were told from birth.

I think the question of why is very much the most important reason a lot of people label them selves religious or non religious.

Some people find that there must be a why, there must be a reason, and therefor someone must be controlling that reason aka god.

But some people ask that question and come to the conclusion that there simply is no why. That we exist for no dissernable reason and that it is simply an incredible truth about the nature of life and of science that it is all just incredible accidents.

 

[-Arya-]

But the problem is that some people were raised in a religious environment that didn't allow them to question the meaning of their existence, because they are just accepting what they were told from birth.

I think the question of why is very much the most important reason a lot of people label them selves religious or non religious.

Some people find that there must be a why, there must be a reason, and therefor someone must be controlling that reason aka god.

But some people ask that question and come to the conclusion that there simply is no why. That we exist for no dissernable reason and that it is simply an incredible truth about the nature of life and of science that it is all just incredible accidents.

I (and I probably am not alone on this) don't even know if it means anything to ask, "Why are we here?" Many times, big questions that begin with 'why' tend to go on relentlessly with no end in sight.

Simplified Example:
"Why is X this way?"
Because Y is causing it.
"Why?"
Because that's the way it is.
"Why?"
Nobody knows, that's just the way it is.
"Why?..........."

This explanation is not enough for many, but I'm fine with not knowing.

 

[Carcharodon]

Well, "No absolute purpose" is not the same as "No purpose." Purpose is not absolute. As I mentioned earlier, purpose is an idea. We made it up. It's malleable, it's exactly what you elect for it to be, it has the value you invest in it and it can change if you want it to. This is the opposite, on every count, of "absolute."

So, no, if Carcharodon says that there is no absolute purpose, this does not necessarily mean that his only purpose is to survive. It means purpose is whatever he decides it to be, because it's not absolute. Of course, I can only speak to my own understanding of his comments; what he actually meant may differ.

That's exactly what I meant.

 

[Carcharodon]

Carcharodon, I think I should rephrase what I meant. Of course the concept of "purpose" is flawed, but then again our very existence is flawed. However, realizing that there is no absolute meaning isn't very practical. I guess for you the most important purpose is to survive. Doesn't that leave you at all empty? Don't you yearn to do more than just survive?

That's a pretty bleak outlook to have, I think - even if this meaning didn't necessarily come from a religious impulse.

But, for clarification's sake, what do you mean when you say a meaning?

I think Saint summed it up better than I could at the moment. I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts.

I will say that this outlook is anything but bleak...in fact, I find it comforting. I'm pretty content with my life, and I have a lot to look forward to.

 

[Dark Phantom]

I (and I probably am not alone on this) don't even know if it means anything to ask, "Why are we here?" Many times, big questions that begin with 'why' tend to go on relentlessly with no end in sight.

Simplified Example:
"Why is X this way?"
Because Y is causing it.
"Why?"
Because that's the way it is.
"Why?"
Nobody knows, that's just the way it is.
"Why?..........."

This explanation is not enough for many, but I'm fine with not knowing.

Get out of my head!!

For the past few months, I've been having recollections about my past; desperatley trying to recapture how i felt when i discovered the facts about life. You're example follows my theory. That all of us as we grow up, have infinite questions. When we arrive at a question that can no longer meet an answer, our mind is dumfounded. It seems impossible. At last when the concept of death is introduced into the mind the anxiety of uncertainty becomes present. Enter religion to fill that gap....

I will say that this outlook is anything but bleak...in fact, I find it comforting. I'm pretty content with my life, and I have a lot to look forward to.

Okay, I figured that was what you were hinting at. I value your outlook, however, for me and a lot of people, the future is so uncertain, like death itself, that there doesnt seem to be a lot to look forward to.

I guess I'm complaining about society in general, but in my view, whether you are religious or not, it's hard to overcome anxiety. The way our infrastructure works, there arent many options. society deems that we learn as a child, get a job as an adult...marriage and children are optional. It's either that, or fail. On top of that if you believe in a god, it hinders any sense of freewill. even if you believe that god granted you freewill, there's a sense of abandonment. For atheists, if "carpe diem" isn't taken into effect, then life is wasted.

so how do you even know if you are making the right choices? What if takes you by the end of your life to come to that realization? Then it's too late. F*** i hate living

 

[Saint]

.

Yes, let's put our faith in a fallible scientist who admits his prestigious analysis and book now contains bunk.

Actually, this is a great plan: let's ignore everyone who has published a book containing bunk. Number one with a bullet? Christianity.

 

[Compi716]

Any reformed jews in the house?

I'm thinking about converting to Reformed Judaism and I want to know what I should read and how I should go about that.

I'm Conservadox/Modern Orthodox...I don't know if that helps you. From my understanding, though, you should probably read some work by Heschel.