The Incredible Hulk - What went wrong?

[ThatDamnNinja]

It's really not that hard to figure out. It has everything to do with lukewarm feelings about the Hulk after the first movie, and the utter lack of marketing.

I mean, let's be honest. People ARE interested in the character. The marketed the hell out of the first movie like it was going to be the next Spider-Man. Hulk was everywhere. The box-office tally on the opening weekend reflected that.

They marketed this movie like they were embarrassed to even be making a second one. As if they were thinking, "Okay... we'll just keep it under the radar... if they don't like it, no one will notice... if they do like it, word-of-mouth will help."

But the problem is that you can't rely on fanboy word-of-mouth. You need general audience word-of-mouth. The Incredible Hulk did better on the opening weekend than it really should have, but those were all fanboy numbers. Most of the people who WANTED to see the movie did, and on that weekend.

The Incredible Hulk also appeals more specifically to a much more niche market of male, action-movie enthusiasts. Iron Man was an action movie, but it appealed to both genders, and people of all ages, because it's a fun movie. Some of it's most entertaining scenes are the ones where there's no action at all. Just dialogue. So we really couldn't have expected Iron Man numbers anyway.

But if they had been willing to MARKET this thing, get some publicity, get some AWARENESS, get the entertainment talk shows and magazines talking about it, acknowledging that it's unrelated to the first movie, we probably could've expected domestic numbers in the $200 million range.

 

[The Shrike]

Several things went wrong, so here's my list:

1. Negative influence of 2003 Hulk on 2008 TIH box office.

I'm not blaming the first movie exclusively, just noting that TIH was still seen by the general public as a sequel to that film, and not the reboot we knew it to be. If Angs film had been received more positively by the general public, this could have been a positive, instead of the negative it turned out to be.

2. CGI still not realistic enough.

I know, in some areas it improved, they finally got the height right, his musculature was more impressive, and he moved better, but he still wasn't believeable enough. The problem Hulk has here is he's completely CGI, whereas the other comic book characters are all guys in suits.

Unfortunately, to show the true scope of Hulks power, his character can only be done that way effectively, so it's just a matter of waiting until CGI technology reaches the point where he can be rendered realistically.

In hindsight, they should have waited for Cameron to finish Avatar, because that film may contain the breakthrough they've been waiting for. At that point, all it would take is the capital, which would probably mean a $200 million film, but also one where the suspension of disbelief has been acheived.

Is it likely they'd spend that much given the underperformance of the first two films, I wish I could say yes, but my logical side says no at the moment.

3. Poor or insufficient marketing.

Wow, where to begin here, but it looked like they did the marketing on the cheap, almost like they were expecting it to bomb, and didn't want to throw any more cash down the drain.

4. Marvel imposing their cut over the talents.

Even with the stigma of the first Hulk, CGI problems, and the invisible marketing department, they still could have turned at profit theatrically if they had just let Louis and Edward have their way on what they thought the best cut was for the film was. The editing on the final battle is so jarring that it's painfully obvious that something is missing. That's completely unforgiveable in a major Hollywood film.

On a positive note though, even with all of these flaws, the film is still close to breaking even theatrically, and will probably make a profit come DVD release time. Throw in the extra video game, comic book, and merchandizing revenue generated by the presence of the film in theatres and Marvel isn't going to be have any bake sales anytime soon.

From what I understand, they have also frontloaded substantial licensing deals into films like TIH. If they got $40 million or more that way, the film is already profitable in terms of real dollars.

 

[screena]

what went wrong? i don´t know why nobody went to tih but i can tell you why i did not went to see this movie:

ang lee´s hulk was a very decent film, i still prefer it to batman begins (which wasn´t a box office smasher either if you can remember). while i understand that there are other opinions i do not understand why there was a need for a reboot.

it would have been better to do an official sequel whitout the mistakes the first film made.

when you have a decent first film, you can build up on it, box office numbers can get better (as tdk has shown us; also tdk is a way better movie than begins).

if you absolutely need a reboot (and hulk did NOT; daredevil needs one; batman needed it VERY hard), do not wait only 5 years, you have to wait ten years at least. otherwise the audience won´t get it.

i´m not interested in seeing another decent superhero movie part one...i would have liked to watch a fantastic part two.

tih kind of deserves it´s box office numbers. it was only made to make more money than hulk 2003 and well, it did...at least a little bit more.

 

[Hmarrs]

what went wrong? i don´t know why nobody went to tih but i can tell you why i did not went to see this movie:

ang lee´s hulk was a very decent film, i still prefer it to batman begins (which wasn´t a box office smasher either if you can remember). while i understand that there are other opinions i do not understand why there was a need for a reboot.

it would have been better to do an official sequel whitout the mistakes the first film made.

when you have a decent first film, you can build up on it, box office numbers can get better (as tdk has shown us; also tdk is a way better movie than begins).

if you absolutely need a reboot (and hulk did NOT; daredevil needs one; batman needed it VERY hard), do not wait only 5 years, you have to wait ten years at least. otherwise the audience won´t get it.

i´m not interested in seeing another decent superhero movie part one...i would have liked to watch a fantastic part two.

tih kind of deserves it´s box office numbers. it was only made to make more money than hulk 2003 and well, it did...at least a little bit more.

You hit in one sentence:
It would have been better to do an official sequel whitout the mistakes the first film made.Perfect!!!

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

I would say the horrible 2003 Hulk was the main reason why this Hulk did not do so well.

 

[Scooter]

It isn't rocket science, people:

A) This film was not promoted very heavily. At all.
B) This film was not very good. Certainly not Iron Man good. And obviously not good enough to gain whatever interest the (light) marketing missed.
C) The Hulk isn't that popular. Certainly not Batman popular. Not even Iron Man popular, apparently. Sad, but very probably true.

 

[Sava]

I would say the horrible 2003 Hulk was the main reason why this Hulk did not do so well.

bulls**t. The movie wasnt that great, it didnt have enough marketing, the rumors of arguments between the star and the studio didnt help. Yes Ang's movie hurt TIH, but it wasnt the only or the main reason why TIH didnt do good.

 

[dcHulk]

This thread is getting ridiculous. The reasons "why" don't matter anymore. It is what it is. In short, there are multiple factors and "the film isn't Iron Man good" isn't one of them. The film didn't have to be Iron Man good (although I enjoyed TiH more) to be successful. The stigma of the previous Hulk film, terrible marketing, rushing the product, studio disagreements and a "stuffed" summer film slate played a large role in the overall perception of the movie. These themes have been rehashed over and over again in this thread.

I'm convinced though that if this movie had been released Summer 09, we wouldn't be dwelling on a poor box office performance.

 

[Octavias]

correct me if im wrong, but "Hulk 1.1" had a much bigger opening but tailed off quickly do to the overly artsy and odd feel to it, whereas "TIH 1.2" had a lower initial number and better staying power. They did target the TV fanbase a lot more in TIH, but certainly didnt market it as such. it would have been better to have said rather than a "reboot" it was a movie version of the TV show. that may have broght in more nastolgia customers who werent hardcore hulk fans.

I think there is roughly $100 - 125 mil in hulk fan money always going to be out there. crossing over to non hulk fans is the issue. Its not new and shiny like the Xmen franchise was in bringing the modern superhero movie to screen, and Hulk 1.0 axed the potential Icon buzz that bouyed flicks like the spiderman franchise. Having said that TIH was a lot like Batman begins where it re-established a plot line witha lot of potential for the character and though a perfect storm of events like what happened with TDK may not happen for a second film, a decent story may be much better accepted especially after the DVD release

 

[ccdev]

Lousy marketing has got nuthin to do with it. If it was a good movie, the word of mouth would have spread. Like Hellboy, word of mouth (beyond fanboys) was crap. Until the filmakers learn how to film a "realistic" Hulk (with weight), and not just a CGi one, they should stop making any more hulk movies. Great for the fanboys but for the general audience, all they see is 2 CGI characters going at it, like cartoon for "adults". not very appealing. Even for a comic book fan and marvel supporter, I thought the final fight was meh...CGI monster vs CGI monster, big freakin' deal.

 

[TheVileOne]

This movie really didn't follow any patterns like Batman Begins at all, at least where critics and BO are concerned.

BB did not drop like 60% in its second weekend. And it didn't get a 60% or so tomato meter.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

^Thankyou. It in no way followed Batman Begins so the comparasions are useless. I wish people would stop comparing the two.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think people just want to think that the situation mirrors that of Batman Begins, but it unfortunately doesn't.

I think had Hulk opened low like it did and managed to crawl its way to $150 million, $175 million or more we could've made that comparison. But also, the reviews for the movie were NOT that great. Fanboys liked it yeah. People seemed to generally like it more than the first one which was mostly hated. But people weren't blown away by it like Iron Man and Dark Knight.

I think the big decision now is they want to continue using the Hulk in the movies. Because I think clearly, mainstream movie-going audiences don't have much of a connection with the character. Hulk's clearly not as popular as some people here think he is.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I think people just want to think that the situation mirrors that of Batman Begins, but it unfortunately doesn't.

I think had Hulk opened low like it did and managed to crawl its way to $150 million, $175 million or more we could've made that comparison. But also, the reviews for the movie were NOT that great. Fanboys liked it yeah. People seemed to generally like it more than the first one which was mostly hated. But people weren't blown away by it like Iron Man and Dark Knight.

I think the big decision now is they want to continue using the Hulk in the movies. Because I think clearly, mainstream movie-going audiences don't have much of a connection with the character. Hulk's clearly not as popular as some people here think he is.

Yeah. 133mil is only alot when your movie doesn't cost 150mil to make. Hulk's movies are always going to have to cost around that much because of the CGI so these numbers just aren't enough. It could be a franchise if they found some way to lower the budgets but even then I have to concur that Hulk just isn't as popular as the fans would like to believe. Though I'd add that he could have been that popular had most people not rejected the first film in the series. It's sad to say but I think that the first movie has hurt this franchise for years to come and the fact that the second movie obviously didn't blow most people away, which it needed to do, isn't going to help either.

 

[Sarg92]

But people weren't blown away by it like Iron Man and Dark Knight.

I think the big decision now is they want to continue using the Hulk in the movies. Because I think clearly, mainstream movie-going audiences don't have much of a connection with the character. Hulk's clearly not as popular as some people here think he is.

Yep people weren't blown away by it like Iron Man or The Dark Knight but it is not entirely the film's fault but the character of Hulk. Iron Man and Batman are both normal people, no powers or nothing just normal people that save the day with cool gadgets and suits. Something that makes kids go wow and say they want to be like Iron Man or Batman. Banner on the other hand has to turn into a green monster which some kids may find scary and not very likeable. The public can connect with a normal human character, that human character can have powers (like Spiderman) or use gadgets (like Iron Man and Batman), but not with a CGI creature. Now I am not saying if Hulk was a guy in makeup then people would connect more cos I don't think they would, he'd still be a green monster. Now the critics, the proper critics not the comic-book/superhero website critics but normal film critics, they said that The Incredible Hulk was a fun film but that is all it is just a one time thing. But they said that the best parts of the film were the ones with Banner. Just Banner alone in Brazil, critics say that Banner in the favela's was brilliant but when Hulk shows up then it gets rather boring. I remember one critic saying that the Banner chase scene in Brazil was really good but when his alter-ego showed up the action became rather boring. So that's another thing, CGI creatures fighting is not the same as human's. Two CGI monsters tearing up New York may be cool to a fan but not really that cool to the wide stream public, sure the action and monster film goers would like it but not everyone.

Now if a sequel is made, Marvel for a fact need to make Hulk an actual character that interacts with people and objects around him not just smash stuff up. Cos critics and the public just see Hulk as a big green monster that is just on screen for the action, well bring Hulk into the drama aspect, make Hulk talk, express his feelings and thoughts. Make him more than a monster that smashes stuff up, make him an misunderstood creature that just wants to be left alone in peace, he doesn't want to fight but yet is purseued and made out to be a big evil monster that terrorizes where he shows up. I highly doubt that if Bruce Wayne turned into a giant bat at night and went out to fight crime; Batman wouldn't be popular. It is this whole monster thing that puts people off.

Now if a sequel is made, I seriously think Marvel should let Ed Norton write the entire script, not make changes to somebody elses but actually write his own cos when he came aboard locations and such had already been scouted so he couldn't change a great deal from Penn's script. Let Norton write everything, he will give very strong characterization and drama and let Leterrier come up with what Hulk can smash. Marvel should make the film serious and dark, not Batman level but say more dark than X-Men. And if anything make the film closer to the TV Show, I mean show more Banner on the move trying to get rid of Hulk but coming up with obstacles and such, similar to the first act in TIH where we just had Banner on his own. Center the film around Banner, the audience can connect with a human character and will understand the struggle between Hulk and Banner and feel sympathy towards him. I dunno, can't think of a story but I mean just make the story more about Banner/Hulk than Ross wanting to create super soldiers etc... I'm sure if Norton will get to write a Hulk film then he will have a killer drama written down...

 

[TheVileOne]

Yep people weren't blown away by it like Iron Man or The Dark Knight but it is not entirely the film's fault but the character of Hulk. Iron Man and Batman are both normal people, no powers or nothing just normal people that save the day with cool gadgets and suits. Something that makes kids go wow and say they want to be like Iron Man or Batman. Banner on the other hand has to turn into a green monster which some kids may find scary and not very likeable. The public can connect with a normal human character, that human character can have powers (like Spiderman) or use gadgets (like Iron Man and Batman), but not with a CGI creature. Now I am not saying if Hulk was a guy in makeup then people would connect more cos I don't think they would, he'd still be a green monster. Now the critics, the proper critics not the comic-book/superhero website critics but normal film critics, they said that The Incredible Hulk was a fun film but that is all it is just a one time thing. But they said that the best parts of the film were the ones with Banner. Just Banner alone in Brazil, critics say that Banner in the favela's was brilliant but when Hulk shows up then it gets rather boring. I remember one critic saying that the Banner chase scene in Brazil was really good but when his alter-ego showed up the action became rather boring. So that's another thing, CGI creatures fighting is not the same as human's. Two CGI monsters tearing up New York may be cool to a fan but not really that cool to the wide stream public, sure the action and monster film goers would like it but not everyone.

Well people can connect to Shrek and what not. And a CGI robot named Wall-E. And a little character like Gollum. So its not necessarily that people can't connect to CG critters. But I think its more that they have to be really strong.

Now if a sequel is made, Marvel for a fact need to make Hulk an actual character that interacts with people and objects around him not just smash stuff up. Cos critics and the public just see Hulk as a big green monster that is just on screen for the action, well bring Hulk into the drama aspect, make Hulk talk, express his feelings and thoughts. Make him more than a monster that smashes stuff up, make him an misunderstood creature that just wants to be left alone in peace, he doesn't want to fight but yet is purseued and made out to be a big evil monster that terrorizes where he shows up. I highly doubt that if Bruce Wayne turned into a giant bat at night and went out to fight crime; Batman wouldn't be popular. It is this whole monster thing that puts people off.

Actually this I think is a good point. Hulk didn't really do much in these movies other than move the action a long. It's like, we can't have Hulk talk, or doing much else than smashing stuff and throwing stuff around. Now I don't think Hulk has to be waxing philosophical or whatever, but you know why not have him actually talk more other than three words? And yes interacting more with the world around him as well.

There wasn't enough development of Hulk as a character in this movie. They had this idea that they have to save all this stuff for another movie we will probably never get.

I mean why did no one want to talk about in the movie why Hulk is so angry? Or bring up that Hulk is basically like a big kid.

Now if a sequel is made, I seriously think Marvel should let Ed Norton write the entire script, not make changes to somebody elses but actually write his own cos when he came aboard locations and such had already been scouted so he couldn't change a great deal from Penn's script. Let Norton write everything, he will give very strong characterization and drama and let Leterrier come up with what Hulk can smash. Marvel should make the film serious and dark, not Batman level but say more dark than X-Men. And if anything make the film closer to the TV Show, I mean show more Banner on the move trying to get rid of Hulk but coming up with obstacles and such, similar to the first act in TIH where we just had Banner on his own. Center the film around Banner, the audience can connect with a human character and will understand the struggle between Hulk and Banner and feel sympathy towards him. I dunno, can't think of a story but I mean just make the story more about Banner/Hulk than Ross wanting to create super soldiers etc... I'm sure if Norton will get to write a Hulk film then he will have a killer drama written down...

Well I hope they work something out because there is so much unfinished business with this movie. But its still a matter of can you put Hulk in these other movies, have it work, and not weigh the movies down.

 

[Sarg92]

Well people can connect to Shrek and what not. And a CGI robot named Wall-E. And a little character like Gollum. So its not necessarily that people can't connect to CG critters. But I think its more that they have to be really strong.

Well maybe people don't find someone that turns into a green monster interesting? I mean, Iron Man and Batman are both guys with money gadgets and stuff, they do some cool things. Banner on the other hand is a scientist that could be living in the slums, has a depressing life and suicide attempts. It is not that Banner is not interesting it is that if they went with the dark route which would be very good, it wouldn't work well for kids that is why the arctic scene was cut.

I think that maybe Betty and Ross and others become more of a distraction. Just have the film about Banner and Hulk let the audience understand the two characters then bring in a way where Banner meets up with Betty then to Hulk meeting up with Ross and finally a villian. They need a sequel to be a lot more about Banner/Hulk, I really liked the first act in Brazil, those Banner moments were great, how alone and desperate he was and such then when he worked for Stanley delivering pizzas was good too, I really like the scene where Betty was searching for Banner in the alley and he was hiding behind a rubbish bin, it is stuff like that which makes the film adult and such but when Banner is on the run with Betty well then I thought the film kinda got crap. The Hulk scenes were perfect, Banner in Brazil was perfect, the rest was okay, nothing great just okay. In a sequel they need the story to be more about Banner/Hulk like in the TV Show and bring Betty and other characters up along in Banner's travels.

 

[Obi-Ron]

There wasn't enough development of Hulk as a character in this movie. They had this idea that they have to save all this stuff for another movie we will probably never get.

I mean why did no one want to talk about in the movie why Hulk is so angry? Or bring up that Hulk is basically like a big kid.

Good point. Hopefully the cut dialogue between Banner and Samson will touch on this.

 

[Hugebear]

I think your on to something. A dark, serious, adult Hulk movie may be the way to go.
With no more distractions from Betty and Ross. Maybe the leader isn’t the way to go for a sequel, maybe a Hulk vs Iron Man would add more adult elements and darker story.

 

[TheVileOne]

LOL, Hulk done Dark Knight style like the Bruce Jones run .

Hulk will have to steal the Joker .

 

[Hulkfan2008!]

LOL, Hulk done Dark Knight style like the Bruce Jones run .

Hulk will have to steal the Joker .

yeah betty dies, and think of the leader as the master mind like joker, have fully developed abomination seek revenge against ross and hulk. have hulk buters and gamma freaks from leader.

 

[Sarg92]

I think your on to something. A dark, serious, adult Hulk movie may be the way to go.
With no more distractions from Betty and Ross. Maybe the leader isn’t the way to go for a sequel, maybe a Hulk vs Iron Man would add more adult elements and darker story.

Betty and Ross would still be in a dark and more serious film but have the story be more about Banner and Hulk's struggle for control.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

This thread is getting ridiculous. The reasons "why" don't matter anymore. It is what it is. In short, there are multiple factors and "the film isn't Iron Man good" isn't one of them. The film didn't have to be Iron Man good (although I enjoyed TiH more) to be successful. The stigma of the previous Hulk film, terrible marketing, rushing the product, studio disagreements and a "stuffed" summer film slate played a large role in the overall perception of the movie. These themes have been rehashed over and over again in this thread.

I'm convinced though that if this movie had been released Summer 09, we wouldn't be dwelling on a poor box office performance.

That's entirely possible, next year is no were near as cluttered with blockbusters as this one was, they may have been better waiting a year.

 

[TheVileOne]

Eh whatever. There's never a summer these days that isn't crowded. Despite this crowded summer a lot of movies did very well. A ton of movies hit it big this year. So I mean, that excuse doesn't really fly.

The movie was the biggest movie that weekend, and it didn't open THAT big. And it dropped significantly the following week. So I mean, I'm not sure how 2009 could change that.

 

[The Stranger]

TIH showed more Bruce Banner than Hulk. But Norton is such a talented actor that it didn't matter to me.