The Incredible Hulk - What went wrong?

[chiefchirpa]

King Kong didn't speak at all, but yet a number of his films were blockbusters. Maybe they need to take a cue from him.

Old King Kong (it's the Michael Bay film of old times) maybe, but newer ones are not that impressive ($200 M domestic + $300 M international). King Kong films have long period spacing between each other so what people want to see is how they make King Kong through better SFX but afterward the mystique is gone until new kind of SFX can render a better King Kong. In short, King Kong movie is just a spectacle of SFX. King Kong itself cannot tell story and part of a good movie is how the characters can convey their emotions.

Hulk ought to be better than King Kong because he can actually speak. But then people are thinking of Shrek if he talks too much.

 

[chiefchirpa]

King kong and the hulk are very different characters, The hulk in this film definitely needed more lines. That cave scene with betty was perfect time for him to speak but they missed the boat there....

Actually the perception that Hulk is just a dumb brute rendered by CGI movie is held by those who haven't watched the movie. The majority of people who take that brave step and watch the movie will say that this is a good movie regardless if Hulk speaks or not.

 

[co2]

Actually the perception that Hulk is just a dumb brute rendered by CGI movie is held by those who haven't watched the movie. The majority of people who take that brave step and watch the movie will say that this is a good movie regardless if Hulk speaks or not.

I really don't understand why this movie isn't doing better as it is commercially friendly and a solid enough movie.

 

[November Rain]

Actually the perception that Hulk is just a dumb brute rendered by CGI movie is held by those who haven't watched the movie. The majority of people who take that brave step and watch the movie will say that this is a good movie regardless if Hulk speaks or not.

The average perception of the hulk is somewhat wrong and again, if the marketing did a decent job to show and bring life to the cgi character rather than having him be simplified down, perhaps more people would have been interested in viewing him.

I don't mind the hulk speaking, in the last film, his speech was fine which meant he selectively chose not to speak, he was certainly smart enough to understand his surrounding world well. In this film, it's different because the hulk is a simpler being so the speech would have helped with this.

regardless of whether the movie as a whole was good or not, I don't think there was any real emotional attachement to the hulk character as a viewer. He simply was just a walking monster plot device who wouldn't have been able to hold a decent scene without betty or any real scene on his own.

 

[Milkman95]

I think the Marketing of the film was one of the causes, that's for sure. The first trailer came out late, and I guess I can see the no emotional attachment to the character as well. I really liked the film, but it was just too soon to release another Hulk film I think.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I think they were trying to relate too much to the TV series reagrding how little he talks.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

now if only Ed Norton was more appealing to us. unfortunately, he wasn't in any 80s movies, so we don't really have a history with him. and he wasn't in any major roles through the 90s. and he wasn't in any tabloids for drug-abuse or anything negative like that. so it kinda makes him boring, cuz he keeps things private. although, i do know he was dating Salma Hayek for a few years, and that made me jealous. and lastly, i haven't seen Ed Norton on any talk show interviews for TIH. i swear i've only seen Liv Tyler doing all the promotion. if i was Marvel, i would demand that Norton be on every talk show, and ask him to try to be as appealing as possible. try to be funny, make us like you. or something.
hey, i personally love Ed Norton's work in all his movies. but i do know that he can be easily overlooked by a lot of people.

Maybe not promoting the movie edit Norton was not in favor of is his subtle way of telling Marvel they should have gone with his version of the movie with more character development. I don't know if that would have improved things. I think the casual movie fan is still infected by the slow pacing of Ang Lee's movie and their opinions are a little tainted because not enough time has passed. I personally loved Incredible Hulk but in a way I wished for some of those character driven moments of drama in between the action. Perhaps the sequel will be given this sort of attention? I daresay if I were Ed Norton I'd be thinking to myself the less than stellar numbers are proving my point more than my words could.

 

[DragonLord]

I wish I had not seen this thread.

Where should I start. First off is that I have talked to people who are not into comic books and they actually like this movie very much, but they did mention that it needed a little bit more plot. "Well slap me silly and call me suzie"

I guess we need some of those 70 minutes back, Right Marvell!!

I knew that this was going to be an issue when I heard Marvell wanted scenes cut to make it shorter and keep more action going. All the extra work, LL and Ed did, landed on the cutting room floor. The average movie goer laymen Loved the interaction with Betty and Banner/Hulk. I even heard sniffles in the audience when I saw it a second time. Basic Character interaction. Also, why Oh Why do Executives think people want shorter films at the expense of a good plot. If we could get back half of the 70 lost minutes then the public would have reacted totally different. Examples of movies cut and kept short thinking that this is what the audience wants: FF2 and X3.

It was mention that LL is a "Yes Man", and I hate to agree. He should have told them to Kiss his @** and compromise for half the cuts. That is why Ed was so mad because you put in a lot of hard work and here comes some idiot in a suit who tells you to cut this and cut that, and this is to strong so get rid of it. Whatever...

The salvation for this Franchise is the DVD release. It better come out with both flavors of Theatrical version and extended. I can bet a whole month Salary that the Extended version will get watch the most.

Marketing could have been better but as it was pointed out, and I agree, all the efforts where push towards IM. Where are Hulk Easter eggs in IM? That's because, to my recollection, there were none. Could you imagine a quick mention of a green Moster terrorizing a town or location, and Tony mentioning something about it. How much free marketing is that? A Lot!

Right now all I want to do is slap an Executive and call them Suzie. t:

 

[TheVileOne]

Instead of ANOTHER 70 MINUTES, what about some of the 20 minutes that were clipped off of the other cut? Maybe at least half of it?

 

[Raiden]

I think TheVileOne has touched upon all the factors that may have contributed to TIH's seemedly lackluster BO gross after 2 weeks of release. I think that from the get-go, TIH have had to fight an uphill battle in terms of its relationship with Ang Lee's Hulk. It's been 5 years, but it's still fresh to some people's mind, and the confusion of whether it's a sequel or reboot probably turn away audience who didn't like Ang's version and wanted a reboot, or love Ang's and wanted TIH to be similar to that movie. That means TIH had to fight off two different kind of audience and it loses both in the end. And because of its hurdles, TIH needed a strong marketing campaign to fight off the perception and make people want to see it in theatre, and the slow campaign drive did not accomplish this task.

I think one of the criticisms directed toward TIH was that it sacrificed character development over action, and Marvel made a mistake by forcing LL and Norton to concede their cut over Marvel's, and if those deleted scenes had made it in I think would've made the movie stronger without sacrificing the action sequences. Marvel got burnt letting Ang made the cut, but they were also wrong to force their cut a la Fox in favor of marketability and broad appeal. Norton's cut might even have been able to get more critics over on their side, although for critics like Ebert who loved Ang's version, they may never like the new version anyway.

So I think TIH might have been better perhaps to wait a few more years to go by, allow Norton & LL to get the cut that they want, and have a better marketing campaign. I do think TIH is the movie that they should've made in the first place, and it's a great film that paid tribute to both the comics and TV shows, with great actors that screwed up the scenes. And I think CGI Hulk works much better over a muscle man with green paint. I hope there will be TIH 2, but at least we finally get a movie Hulk fans can be proud of, regardless of the outcome.

 

[Mercurius]

The only thing I have complaints about is the CGI.

Hulk and Abomination felt like jelly onscreen, I feared that, and that's what happened.

The rest just confirms the seriousness that Marvel Studios are bringing to superhero movies: great and committed actors; sharp and tight script; a well-rounded story and always a competent direction.

Letterrier's is a better movie than Lee's. And forget about BO: it has nothing to do with quality. This Incredible Hulk is a very good movie. Rock solid.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

The only thing I have complaints about is the CGI.

Hulk and Abomination felt like jelly onscreen, I feared that, and that's what happened.

You know, I was watching a video talking about franchise restarts from G4 I believe and both CGI Hulks looked the same as far as realism is concerned. They both looked like CGI creatures. But you know what? That doesn't really matter at all because guys like Ray Harryhausen were using clay to create their monsters and people still love his movies. I think people have become too picky when dealing with fantastical creatures that don't exist. It really frustrates me that people won't give a movie a chance because it doesn't look real. So friggin' what!!!!!!! I wish people would lose the pretentiousness and start catering to that inner child that can accept these things. We do not have the CGI technology for photorealism period, not in 2003 and not in 2008. This is why I get so angry with people like my mother. She'll watch an M Knight Shamalamadingdong movie but won't give The Incredible Hulk a chance. She wonders why I get so upset.

 

[DoubleM]

The problem I personally had with this movie is that it abandons any sort of plot in the 3rd act. Once Blonsky turns into the abomination (a transformation they don't even show on film!) there is no point to anything. There is no story driving this battle... there is no real reason to cheer for one over the other... it just becomes a CGI rumble in the street. That may be good enough for kids and action enthusiasts, but if you want to see a movie then it doesn't really hold up. As a result I sort of left the movie feeling... meh.

Well actually didn't you seem him changing and started acting irrational?

 

[DoubleM]

The problem I personally had with this movie is that it abandons any sort of plot in the 3rd act. Once Blonsky turns into the abomination (a transformation they don't even show on film!) there is no point to anything. There is no story driving this battle... there is no real reason to cheer for one over the other... it just becomes a CGI rumble in the street. That may be good enough for kids and action enthusiasts, but if you want to see a movie then it doesn't really hold up. As a result I sort of left the movie feeling... meh.

Well actually didn't you seem him changing and started acting irrational?

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

Well actually didn't you seem him changing and started acting irrational?

You know what? I've actually started to think that Ross' Super Soldier Serum works quite similarly to Norman Osborn's Goblin serum. It's just too bad that Marvel doesn't have complete control of the Spider-man franchise. That would be one hell of a tie in between the two franchises. It would explain why Blonsky acted as irrationally as he did and why he was so violent.

 

[Mercurius]

You know, I was watching a video talking about franchise restarts from G4 I believe and both CGI Hulks looked the same as far as realism is concerned. They both looked like CGI creatures. But you know what? That doesn't really matter at all because guys like Ray Harryhausen were using clay to create their monsters and people still love his movies. I think people have become too picky when dealing with fantastical creatures that don't exist. It really frustrates me that people won't give a movie a chance because it doesn't look real. So friggin' what!!!!!!! I wish people would lose the pretentiousness and start catering to that inner child that can accept these things. We do not have the CGI technology for photorealism period, not in 2003 and not in 2008. This is why I get so angry with people like my mother. She'll watch an M Knight Shamalamadingdong movie but won't give The Incredible Hulk a chance. She wonders why I get so upset.

Hey, forget the talk with your mom, Zilla (Shyamalan's movie, BTW, is a übercrap). I said the HULK movie is a very good one, much better than Ang Lee's.

But it is a fact the CGI is a problem.

Ang Lee's movie didn't have a great story like this, nor the spot on actors this one has, but the scenes in the desert (where Hulk smashes some tanks and stuff) are not only convincing but also amazing.

But this new one I enjoyed big time, I felt even moved by the precise and really powerful acting that Norton & Tyler brought to the characters.

Great movie. Thumbs up, Marvel.

 

[SpaghettiHULK]

I think the CGI in this new one is way better... it absolutely amazed me.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

Hey, forget the talk with your mom, Zilla (Shyamalan's movie, BTW, is a übercrap). I said the HULK movie is a very good one, much better than Ang Lee's.

But it is a fact the CGI is a problem.

Ang Lee's movie didn't have a great story like this, nor the spot on actors this one has, but the scenes in the desert (where Hulk smashes some tanks and stuff) are not only convincing but also amazing.

But this new one I enjoyed big time, I felt even moved by the precise and really powerful acting that Norton & Tyler brought to the characters.

Great movie. Thumbs up, Marvel.

I'm sorry but my mother is very much in my thoughts because of what she said about Hulk and why she was stubbornly against it. I just don't think people should have issues about the CGI because that's as good as our current special effects with CGI are going to get. Did people in the 50's complain about Harryhausen's stop motion animated skeletons in Jason and the Argonauts? Did people complain about Lucas' creature costumes in Star Wars in the 70's? I think people are being way too picky nowadays and should just let it go. The Incredible Hulk is a very good action movie as they go. It's alot better than Bay's movie last year which was a clusterf...well you know what in terms of characters and plot. I cared more about Bruce Banner and his plight with controlling the monster inside of him than I ever did with Spike (Sam) Witwicky motivation of wanting to get the girl.

 

[November Rain]

i don't know why people have problems not associating the old one with the new.

I mean if they truelly wanted to do a hulk story that was off the cuff to the one ang lee showed, then they could have. it's a shame they stayed in this strange grey area which was somewhat safe...

 

[Mercurius]

I'm sorry but my mother is very much in my thoughts because of what she said about Hulk and why she was stubbornly against it. I just don't think people should have issues about the CGI because that's as good as our current special effects with CGI are going to get. Did people in the 50's complain about Harryhausen's stop motion animated skeletons in Jason and the Argonauts? Did people complain about Lucas' creature costumes in Star Wars in the 70's? I think people are being way too picky nowadays and should just let it go. The Incredible Hulk is a very good action movie as they go. It's alot better than Bay's movie last year which was a clusterf...well you know what in terms of characters and plot. I cared more about Bruce Banner and his plight with controlling the monster inside of him than I ever did with Spike (Sam) Witwicky motivation of wanting to get the girl.

People didn't complain about Harryhausen because animation techniques are a real virtuoso stuff, it demands an unbelievable amount of artisan work, the stop-motion endless patience, etc.

We see all that with utter respect. Moreover, when you shoot things they look more real than CGI. Agreed, they move awkwardly, and sometimes the chopping off shows the trick. But they are consistent as things.

I couldn't avoid the "jelly" sensation about Hulk and Abomination skins. They couldn't make it solid enough. Too smooth, shiny and flaccid.

Again: nothing that could spoil the movie. It was quite professionally rendered, of course.

And I repeat: great movie. I'm really happy the way Marvel deals with the superhero concept they know so well. Now I hope they get FF's rights back and do the same. I'd love it.

 

[DoubleM]

You know what? I've actually started to think that Ross' Super Soldier Serum works quite similarly to Norman Osborn's Goblin serum. It's just too bad that Marvel doesn't have complete control of the Spider-man franchise. That would be one hell of a tie in between the two franchises. It would explain why Blonsky acted as irrationally as he did and why he was so violent.

Your absolutely right

 

[antonydavanzo]

What went wrong - bugger all marketing IMO, that was its only downfall.

 

[Supernewbie]

It's too bad that there was such a huge drop in the domestic box office after 1 week, similar to the first film. Here's what went wrong:

1) Late marketing - there should have been earlier hype built up for this movie. The trailers and TV spots came out too late. And there was not much promotional work done by the big name main actors, Edward Norton and Liv Tyler.

2) Ang Lee's 2003 Hulk - some people liked it others didn't. But whether you liked it or not, it was just 5 years ago and most people who had already seen a big screen version of the Hulk were not in a rush to go see what they believed would be more of the same thing. With Batman begins, it had been 7 years since the last one and audiences were well informed that it was going to be a restart. This new Hulk movie unfortunately did not send a clear message from it's title or trailers that it was a reboot. People may have assumed it was a sequel that they weren't interested in.

 

[Comicfan]

i don't know why people have problems not associating the old one with the new.

I mean if they truelly wanted to do a hulk story that was off the cuff to the one ang lee showed, then they could have. it's a shame they stayed in this strange grey area which was somewhat safe...

Well, even if some people complain a lot, HULK did well at the BO, marvel didn´t wanted to blow the chances of getting the money of the people who saw HULK, but at the same time alienate those who didn´t like it

 

[Clark Kent]

at that. Robert Wise was the editor on Citizen Kane, worked under Val Lewton on several horror/fantasy films, Curse of the Cat People most prominently, directed the science fiction classic The Day the Earth Stood Still, the horror classic The Haunting, and the pretty good for its day The Andromeda Strain. He was eminently qualified to direct a Star Trek movie.

Fair enough. I stand corrected then. I only knew him from The Sound of Music.

i dont get the whole lack of marketing thing , it didnt make sense they should of made a viral marketing thing like the datk knight .

Well, marketing doesn't need to be viral marketing. So what would make you say something like that?

I bet if I were ever involved in a comic genre movie she's snub my efforts because it's not her type of movie.

My Mom's the same. She's taken next to no interest in my Superman script.

That cave scene with betty was perfect time for him to speak but they missed the boat there....

Yeah. If he can speak, which he can, why the hell didn't he say at least something there?

people are thinking of Shrek if he talks too much.

I don't mind that they made a movie about a talking ogre, but why oh why did they have to colour him green?

in the last film, his speech was fine which meant he selectively chose not to speak

Uh, what? In the last film, his line, "Puny human." was in a dream, and his only other line, "Take it ALL!" was Banner speaking through the Hulk.

it was just too soon to release another Hulk film I think.

not enough time has passed.

Agreed.

if I were Ed Norton I'd be thinking to myself the less than stellar numbers are proving my point more than my words could.

They probably didn't listen to him because of his reputation, which makes me wonder why they agreed to let him write it in the first place. Were they so desperate to get him to star in it?

I can bet a whole month Salary that the Extended version will get watch the most.

If they do release an extended cut, that's the only version I will EVER watch.

Marvel got burnt letting Ang made the cut, but they were also wrong to force their cut a la Fox in favor of marketability and broad appeal.

What is it about these studios who feel that they have to go to either one extreme or the other?

.

for critics like Ebert who loved Ang's version, they may never like the new version anyway.

I simply cannot even begin to understand why anyone liked that movie, or at least how anyone could have thought that it'd be commercially successful.

both CGI Hulks looked the same as far as realism is concerned. They both looked like CGI creatures.

We do not have the CGI technology for photorealism period, not in 2003 and not in 2008.

I thought that the 2003 Hulk looked like a photorealistic animatronic. I think that the 2008 Hulk looks like a cartoon.

I've actually started to think that Ross' Super Soldier Serum works quite similarly to Norman Osborn's Goblin serum. It's just too bad that Marvel doesn't have complete control of the Spider-man franchise. That would be one hell of a tie in between the two franchises. It would explain why Blonsky acted as irrationally as he did and why he was so violent.

That would have been excellent. I am against the Super Soldier Serum origin, but that would have been brilliantly logical.

I think the CGI in this new one is way better... it absolutely amazed me.

I feel the complete opposite, .