Daredevil The Inevitable Costume Thread

[Mike Murdock]

Oh that's right, it was red. I'm not sure that's helpful, but it makes more sense.

Really, I wonder why Stan Lee even came up with the yellow costume in the first place. When I think of a devil, I think red.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Maybe the acrobat type concept came to mind before the typical devil look.

 

[The Question]

I'd like this to be hist first home-made effort

Forget the first homemade effort. Change the yellow to red, and this was exactly what I was envisioning for the final version of his costume. This would look amazing on screen.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I hope not. That's a bridge too far for me as far as final costumes go.

 

[The Question]

I hope not. That's a bridge too far for me as far as final costumes go.

How so?

 

[Mike Murdock]

It looks cheap and ugly rather than heroic. It looks like something you might do if you had five minutes, but not something you'd do if you had the time and resources to make something better. Matt Murdock doesn't want his costume to look like something thrown together. The "image" of Daredevil is important if he wants to achieve his goals. Otherwise, he could just wear a mask and call it a day.

If I had to pick specific parts I don't like, it would be the gloves, the belt, the boots, and that gap in the neck that doesn't cover his skin properly. In other words, pretty much everything.

 

[The Question]

It looks cheap and ugly rather than heroic. It looks like something you might do if you had five minutes, but not something you'd do if you had the time and resources to make something better. Matt Murdock doesn't want his costume to look like something thrown together. The "image" of Daredevil is important if he wants to achieve his goals. Otherwise, he could just wear a mask and call it a day.

If I had to pick specific parts I don't like, it would be the gloves, the belt, the boots, and that gap in the neck that doesn't cover his skin properly. In other words, pretty much everything.

I don't see cheap and ugly, I see a guy working with what he's got. I see a guy who doesn't have resources, who only has what his father left to him to draw upon, and who uses those things to create what he needs to stand up to the people who do have the resources and money. It has blemishes, yes, but that's the point. The blemishes are what makes it beautiful. They're what gives it meaning and context. This costume is the antithesis of everything Wilson Fisk is trying to be. I see that costume, and I think: "Yes, that is a kid from the slums standing up." It absolutely looks heroic, and to say that something more sleek and refined looks more heroic than this costume is kind of missing the point of Daredevil. This costume embodies what Daredevil is about, and that makes it anything but ugly.

As for the image, I'm not sure how this hurts the image. It's still a guy dressed in a demon costume beating people up. It's still a guy dressed like a demon standing up to the mob and the wealthy power elite of the city. So what if there's a gap between the neck and the mask? So what if he's wearing repurposed boxing gloves? I don't see how that would lessen the symbolic impact.

And, like, what in the world is wrong with the belt and the boots?

 

[Mike Murdock]

They both look extremely inelegant.

While I don't particularly think Daredevil is rich, Stan Lee seemed to somewhat disagree (he certainly shouldn't be able to afford the place he had). I think they assumed lawyer=rich. Either way, he's decidedly middle class and is making enough money to have some polish. Really, if Peter Parker can do it, he can do it.

To me, you want the costume to look like something not every person can do. It helps distinguish superhero from vigilante. I think that's important and its why that costume really doesn't work for me.

 

[The Question]

They both look extremely inelegant.

Inelegant =/= ugly. In fact, elegance can hinder a piece of visual art from being as beautiful as it could be.

Beauty in costuming doesn't just come from what is generally aesthetically appealing. That is a factor, but what is more important is how the costuming conveys the ideas of the piece, how much it embodies the themes of the story and the nature of the character. A beautiful costume is one that perfectly encapsulates who the character is and what their role is in the story. It's the same with cinematography. Dynamic and visually engaging shots are important, but they're nowhere near as important as shots that accurately portray what the scene is about and what we're supposed to know about and feel for the characters. You could craft the most beautiful, aesthetically marvelous, awe inspiring shot of all time, but if it's used for a quiet scene that really requires the audience to feel the raw and uncomfortable emotional vulnerability of a lonely character, then it's a bad shot.

Elegance is a virtue that Wilson Fisk values. Daredevil is the guy who stands up for all of the inelegant people in the world. Elegance gets in the way of beauty, when it comes to Daredevil.

While I don't particularly think Daredevil is rich, Stan Lee seemed to somewhat disagree (he certainly shouldn't be able to afford the place he had). I think they assumed lawyer=rich. Either way, he's decidedly middle class and is making enough money to have some polish. Really, if Peter Parker can do it, he can do it.

1: Daredevil has become decidedly poorer with each passing writer. Compare his apartment in the early Stan Lee days, which had multiple floors, a fancy attic sculpture gallery, and a hidden gym/workshop/costume storage area, with his apartment in Bendis' run, which was a one bedroom apartment with a false panel in his closet to hide his costume. The notion that Matt Murdock is not a man burdened with anything you'd call wealth has definitely been solidified in the books over the years.

2: There has been a very strong theme of class warfare in Daredevil ever since Miller's run. The Murdock family has consistently been painted as almost destitute, the notion of Nelson & Murdock being a less than lucrative firm where Matt takes mostly pro-bono civil cases and makes his money moonlighting as a public defender has become the norm, and Daredevil's war with The Kingpin has consistently been painted as a struggle between the haves and the have-nots. Daredevil, thematically, represents the urban working class. Polish runs counter to that theme.

3: Peter Parker shouldn't have polish either. I've always said that live action versions of Spider-Man's costume should look decidedly homemade. Same design, just don't use space age materials and make the seams a little more obvious. That would add a ton of character to the outfit that would really embody what Peter Parker is all about.

To me, you want the costume to look like something not every person can do. It helps distinguish superhero from vigilante. I think that's important and its why that costume really doesn't work for me.

What distinguishes a superhero from a vigilante is what they do. It's their deeds and their ambition and their conviction. It doesn't really matter what they wear in that regard. To say it does is to say that what separates a superhero from a vigilante is having enough money to pay for nicer clothes, when it is so much more than that.

The costume should look like something that anyone could do, because Daredevil represents everyone. He is the symbolic champion of the working class. His costume should reflect that. A sleek, polished costume would be a betrayal of that theme. He is not better than us. He is one of us, and he has decided to stand up.

 

[Dark Raven]

Maybe the acrobat type concept came to mind before the typical devil look.

That's what I'm thinking. Maybe the emphasis was more on a daredevil (ie someone who does thrilling, daring and dangerous stunts or activities) rather than just the devil part, which is what it has more become in later years.

 

[The Question]

That's what I'm thinking. Maybe the emphasis was more on a daredevil (ie someone who does thrilling, daring and dangerous stunts or activities) rather than just the devil part, which is what it has more become in later years.

That is absolutely the case. Matt being a devout Catholic and his costume being apart of his ****ed up moral psychodrama was invented by Miller. Before that, the idea was that he was a daredevil in the sense that he did crazy dangerous stuff, and the horns were just there as a cute pun.

 

[Mike Murdock]

^ I think Kevin Smith had a lot to do with it too since he really played up Matt's Catholicism (I think Matt's culturally Catholic, but I don't think he's been shown to be much of a practicing Catholic). I think Miller used the devil aspect in the same way people use the bat aspect of Batman - striking fear into villains of this world.

Elegance is a virtue that Wilson Fisk values. Daredevil is the guy who stands up for all of the inelegant people in the world. Elegance gets in the way of beauty, when it comes to Daredevil.

Well, I don't really think elegance is a virtue Wilson Fisk values. I'm not sure he cares about anything but power. In fact, his lack of sophistication was something played up, particularly during Nocenti's run and Chichester's Last Rites story. After all, the Kingpin grew up poor on the streets. Although he's smart and ruthless, he is relatively uneducated. Whenever someone makes him feel dumb, he usually responds by killing them. I really don't see elegance as something that belongs to Fisk.

1: Daredevil has become decidedly poorer with each passing writer. Compare his apartment in the early Stan Lee days, which had multiple floors, a fancy attic sculpture gallery, and a hidden gym/workshop/costume storage area, with his apartment in Bendis' run, which was a one bedroom apartment with a false panel in his closet to hide his costume. The notion that Matt Murdock is not a man burdened with anything you'd call wealth has definitely been solidified in the books over the years.

Well, yeah. What happened was that the Kingpin wiped Murdock's bank accounts, got him disbarred, and then blew up his Brownstone. That's what caused the change. And the change was a good one because apartments in New York are expensive and Matt's always been about helping the poor and disadvantaged who aren't known for paying well (I think at one point it was said they had government funding, but at least when he had his legal clinic, that probably wasn't the case). But I don't think Matt's ever been shown to be struggling with money except right after the Kingpin wiped his savings. Certainly, he can afford to polish a costume up a bit so it doesn't look like something he just threw together.

We might have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Dark Raven]

Maybe some writer is going to come along and play up the "king" part of Kingpin's name, and then another one will play up the "pin" aspect.

Maybe he'll turn out to be a Pinterest fanatic.

 

[The Question]

^ I think Kevin Smith had a lot to do with it too since he really played up Matt's Catholicism (I think Matt's culturally Catholic, but I don't think he's been shown to be much of a practicing Catholic). I think Miller used the devil aspect in the same way people use the bat aspect of Batman - striking fear into villains of this world.

Miller was the one who introduced the Catholicism in the first place.

Well, I don't really think elegance is a virtue Wilson Fisk values. I'm not sure he cares about anything but power. In fact, his lack of sophistication was something played up, particularly during Nocenti's run and Chichester's Last Rites story. After all, the Kingpin grew up poor on the streets. Although he's smart and ruthless, he is relatively uneducated. Whenever someone makes him feel dumb, he usually responds by killing them. I really don't see elegance as something that belongs to Fisk.

1: Elegance is a symbol of power. Nice cars, fine wine, tailored Italian suits, fancy penthouse apartments on the top floor of a skyscraper, these are all status symbols that represent the power that Wilson Fisk has carved out for himself. They show that he has elevated himself above where he comes from, and now holds absolute power over that place. Yes, he started out poor, but instead of opposing the people who created the environment he came from, he became one of them. He chose to become part of the system, while Daredevil chose to fight the system. Fisk abandoned his people to be come their oppressor, while Murdock stands on their behalf.

2: I've never seen the idea of Fisk lacking formal education and killing people who remind him of that in any of the stories I've read. I always got the impression that he managed to self teach himself the equivalent of a formal education as he started making it big.

Well, yeah. What happened was that the Kingpin wiped Murdock's bank accounts, got him disbarred, and then blew up his Brownstone. That's what caused the change. And the change was a good one because apartments in New York are expensive and Matt's always been about helping the poor and disadvantaged who aren't known for paying well (I think at one point it was said they had government funding, but at least when he had his legal clinic, that probably wasn't the case). But I don't think Matt's ever been shown to be struggling with money except right after the Kingpin wiped his savings. Certainly, he can afford to polish a costume up a bit so it doesn't look like something he just threw together.

That's an in-universe justification for emphasizing the themes of class in the story. It doesn't really matter wether or not Matt can afford to "polish" his costume. He shouldn't, because that goes against what the story is about.

To me, it would be the same kind of disconnect between theme and style that is given as an example at timecode 7:45 in this video:

[YT]2THVvshvq0Q[/YT]

Of course, if we're going to go in-universe about this:

1) Not obviously struggling for money isn't the same thing as having enough money to discretely create a super fancy and sleek costume. Matt has enough money to get by, but ever since Miller's run he has never been shown to have a significant disposable income.

2) I don't see why he would feel a need to "polish" his costume. He's not out to win any fashion awards.

We might have to agree to disagree here.

Perhaps, but it's still an interesting discussion.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Miller was the one who introduced the Catholicism in the first place.

My understanding is it predates Miller. This link seems to confirm my understanding, stating that Tony Isabella was the first to say it explicitly (plus, I wouldn't be surprised if Stan Lee intended it in the first place given the Irishness of his name and character).

1: Elegance is a symbol of power. Nice cars, fine wine, tailored Italian suits, fancy penthouse apartments on the top floor of a skyscraper, these are all status symbols that represent the power that Wilson Fisk has carved out for himself.

Well, he has tailored Italian suits because he's a play off the Godfather. But, like all mobsters, he's not above crude brutal methods as well. I'm just not sure why elegance and crudeness are exclusive to one side or the other.

2: I've never seen the idea of Fisk lacking formal education and killing people who remind him of that in any of the stories I've read. I always got the impression that he managed to self teach himself the equivalent of a formal education as he started making it big.

Daredevil #255 or so, Daredevil #290 definitely. I remember something during D.G. Chichester's Last Rites story (297-300), but I can't track down something specifically.

I'm just not sure class warfare has been an element of the Daredevil-Kingpin dynamic. I agree with you that Daredevil is the protector of the poor while Kingpin is the exploiter of them, but I'm not sure it's rich vs. poor. Instead, it's the poor cannibalizing their own.

 

[Majik1387]

Am I the only one that doesn't want to see yellow in the costume at all?

I mean I know he's blind but still.

 

[Dark Raven]

My understanding is it predates Miller. This link seems to confirm my understanding, stating that Tony Isabella was the first to say it explicitly (plus, I wouldn't be surprised if Stan Lee intended it in the first place given the Irishness of his name and character).

DD is meant to have Irish heritage?

Which year is it that this Catholic aspect was introduced? I remember the pre-Miller DD where it was a much simpler time and he was a much brighter character.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Am I the only one that doesn't want to see yellow in the costume at all?

I mean I know he's blind but still.

My preference is no yellow costume, but, if it is there, it should be there only briefly. I see no need for it, but I'm not opposed to it.

DD is meant to have Irish heritage?

Which year is it that this Catholic aspect was introduced? I remember the pre-Miller DD where it was a much simpler time and he was a much brighter character.

1975

The writer of the issue, Tony Isabella apparently has a reputation of giving characters religion. For DC, he created Black Lightning, who was explicitly created to be a Christian character

He also had a story nixed by Marvel that would have made Johnny Blaze become a Christian. I think it was Jim Shooter who did that. Speaking of Jim Shooter, while Daredevil as a whole was certainly lighter than it became with Miller and beyond, the "grittier" elements that Miller brought to the front were certainly introduced through writers like Jim Shooter and early Roger McKenzie. Of course, it certainly wasn't that consistent. Then again, I don't think Frank Miller's run was as dark as people remember it and it was only Born Again that changed things dramatically.

 

[Dark Raven]

Hmm.. I read DD comics post 1975 and don't really recall any Catholic element to it. Maybe it wasn't all that common back then? Or maybe it wasn't in every issue? Admittedly I did only read it on and off again. I will always remember the DD issue where he fought Gladiator and Beetle, and also the one where he teamed up with Black Panther and fought... Mind Master!

 

[Mike Murdock]

There was a Priest in the specific issue I'm referring to, but I agree it wasn't a major element.

Then again, thinking of Frank Miller's run: Aside from the fact that the woman Matt thinks is his mother being a nun (keep in mind she never confirms this at this time) is there anything identifying Matt as a Catholic then either? Obviously, there's a lot of Christian symbolism, but that's not the same thing. The only other thing I can remember during the entirety of Volume 1 was Typhoid Mary calling Matt a "Merry Christian" in a nondenominational way (although somewhat annoyingly).

 

[The Question]

My understanding is it predates Miller. This link seems to confirm my understanding, stating that Tony Isabella was the first to say it explicitly (plus, I wouldn't be surprised if Stan Lee intended it in the first place given the Irishness of his name and character).

Huh. I was always under the impression that it came from Miller. Fancy that.

Well, he has tailored Italian suits because he's a play off the Godfather. But, like all mobsters, he's not above crude brutal methods as well. I'm just not sure why elegance and crudeness are exclusive to one side or the other.

The Kingpin's violence isn 't an aesthetic symbol of status. The abstract concepts of crudeness and elegance are not inherently class related, but aesthetic elegance and aesthetic crudeness are. And the violence that The Kingpin wields fits perfectly in line with the aesthetic elegance of his status symbols. They're both associated with power.

Daredevil #255 or so, Daredevil #290 definitely. I remember something during D.G. Chichester's Last Rites story (297-300), but I can't track down something specifically.

Never read that one.

I'm just not sure class warfare has been an element of the Daredevil-Kingpin dynamic. I agree with you that Daredevil is the protector of the poor while Kingpin is the exploiter of them, but I'm not sure it's rich vs. poor. Instead, it's the poor cannibalizing their own.

1: I'm not sure I see a distinction between the two. The Kingpin abandoned his roots to become one of his former oppressors. It's still an anti-classist message, as someone who ascends to a higher economic and social class the turns on his former peers. That still sends a message of "Working class good, rich people bad."

2: Even if it is just the poor cannibalizing their own, that still would clash with a sleek and polished aesthetic from Daredevil. He is the protector of the poor who stands up to the people who exploit the poor. A sleek and polished costume with obvious money put into it clashes with that theme.

 

[s_mikheidze]

One can argue all that they want in reference to how the costume should be a visual manifestation of the overall virtue of the character....but ultimately, the "cool" factor will win out. It usually does.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Writer for Daredevil, Ann Nocenti, is known for her left wing views and certainly expressed them in Daredevil (although not the extent she is often criticized). She had Daredevil battle rich vs. poor on a couple times (usually against evil corporations). The first, Kelco, was owned by the Kingpin. Still, even then, I don't think the Kingpin himself ever came out as being the symbol of the rich vs. the poor.

 

[The Question]

One can argue all that they want in reference to how the costume should be a visual manifestation of the overall virtue of the character....but ultimately, the "cool" factor will win out. It usually does.

Which I think is a grand shame. There is nothing cooler than a character's look being a manifestation of their overall virtue.

 

[cryptic name]

I...I love that suit. And Ben Reilly. I discovered Marvel comics at a young age right when the Clone Saga was happening, so that was my introduction to Spider-Man. And I thought it was awesome!

My secret wish is for Marvel to get the Spider-Man rights back, pump out 3 or 4 Spidey movies, and then do a proper Clone Saga film. With Ben. And that great sweater costume.

I'm sorry. Here's my Marvel Fanboy Card. I'll just see myself out...

Nothing wrong with liking it. I think it's pretty cool myself, I just meant that it's representative of an era that's somewhat reviled by alot of Spidey fans and it'd be weird to make it Peter Parker's costume in a Spider-Man movie. In my opinion.