The Iran Thread

[Addendum]

Did they not gain those through war?

And that UN Resolution considers those territories inadmissible.

 

[Matt]

US Intell Expects Iran/Israel War in 09
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=85662&sectionid=351020101

Bold prediction: By 2010, NK will have sold a crude nuclear weapon to Iran. They will use it on Israel. Hell will break loose in the Middle East.

 

[Marx]

Bold prediction: By 2010, NK will have sold a crude nuclear weapon to Iran. They will use it on Israel. Hell will break loose in the Middle East.

That is rather bold...and quite scary to even think about.

 

[Kelly]

I don't know that it will happen by 2010, but I do believe it is possible that it could happen during the Obama administration....

 

[StorminNorman]

I would almost be surprised (and naturally relieved) if Isreal did not attack Iran by the end of the year.

 

[StorminNorman]

Which is relevant how to you saying the article was about not forcing "innocent Israeli's nor innocent Palestinians to leave their homes". Don't try to create false equivalences

No Palestinians will be forced to leave their homes under such a plan. Neither would any Israeli's.

You still haven't acknowledged that Israel accepted the road map, including a freeze on natural growth

When?

A complete non-answer. What's the difference between Bush Sr and Obama's attitude to Israeli settlements?

The perception. It's all about perception.

Where in 242 does it say Israel has a right to the land?

Peace treaties made with Jordan and Egypt were made with Israel retaining control of the West Bank and the Gaza strip. As the PLO refused to accept the terms of 242, Israel - I and many - believe holds the right to that area.

I don't recall those treaties giving Israel a right to the West Bank, Gaza or the Golan Heights.

Look at the treaties made with Jordon and Egypt.

And that UN Resolution considers those territories inadmissible.

Not entirely true.

 

[sasquatchs]

Peace treaties made with Jordan and Egypt were made with Israel retaining control of the West Bank and the Gaza strip. As the PLO refused to accept the terms of 242, Israel - I and many - believe holds the right to that area.

Er, no. The land isn't forfeited and given to Israel just because the PLO declined the terms. 242 makes clear that Israel or any state can't acquire land through force, they don't get squatters rights

When?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

 

[voyzovrezon]

US Intell Expects Iran/Israel War in 09
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=85662&sectionid=351020101

Iran and the US have had no diplomatic ties for almost thirty years, but in an abrupt volte-face in the White House policy of isolating Iran, US President Barack Obama has vowed to break the ice and create conditions for the two sides to "start sitting across the table, face to face" in the coming months.

"I think there's the possibility, at least, of a relationship of mutual respect and progress," Obama said at his first prime time press conference on Monday.

"My expectation is, in the coming months, we will be looking for openings that can be created where we can start sitting across the table face-to-face with diplomatic overtures that will allow us to move our policy in the new direction," he added.

Israel fears US-Iran talks may lead to rapprochement between the two countries -- a development that may be able to slightly change the balance of power in the Middle East.

Iran has shown openness toward US calls for dialogue but insists that Washington should be seeking lasting 'change' and not a mere shift in tactics.

There's hope when the U.S. president wants diplomatic solutions rather than preemptive strikes. Like Jimmy Carter showed us back in 1978, talks work. And Iran is willing to talk.

 

[Hobgoblin]

But is Israel willing to wait for talks to be productive? And should they be willing?

 

[voyzovrezon]

and speaking of Palestinians being forced from their homes, this video by Max Blumenthal, at 3 minutes in, shows a town called Silwan in which Palestinians may be forced to evacuate in order for an archeological park to be built.

[YT]_aVb2coBLwE[/YT]

 

[voyzovrezon]

But is Israel willing to wait for talks to be productive? And should they be willing?

First question---I personally do not know. Second question--why shouldn't they be willing?

 

[Hobgoblin]

First question---I personally do not know. Second question--why shouldn't they be willing?

The longer they wait, the more progress Iran makes on developing its nuclear program. Time is of the essence, I'm sure.

 

[The Overlord]

Peace treaties made with Jordan and Egypt were made with Israel retaining control of the West Bank and the Gaza strip. As the PLO refused to accept the terms of 242, Israel - I and many - believe holds the right to that area.

.

Egypt and Jordan don't own those lands, That's like saying the US would have the right to sell Canada to Russia, it doesn't. Trying to control Gaza and west Bank doesn't make sense on many levels, from a military standard and a PR one. Its foolish to waste resources protecting a bunch of crazy religious settlers, it spreads your forces too thin and Israel would have the moral support of most of the world if they withdrew to the pre 67 borders. If they withdrew to their pre 67 borders, they can build a wall around that for I care, if they are that worried about security, it would easier to defend a smaller era with a more concentrated Jewish population, then trying to defend that and a bunch of scattered settlements.

There is no logical reason for these settlements, the reasoning behind is some outdated religious mumbo jumbo. Now granted I don't like the regime in Palestine either, but allowing this status quo to continue is insane, this status quo is not working, it needs a change.

 

[StorminNorman]

Er, no. The land isn't forfeited and given to Israel just because the PLO declined the terms. 242 makes clear that Israel or any state can't acquire land through force, they don't get squatters rights



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

And the fact that Israel made treaties with Jordan and with Egypt that left them with the land they owned means it was not simply acquired through force. It was acquired through treaty.

 

[The Overlord]

And the fact that Israel made treaties with Jordan and with Egypt that left them with the land they owned means it was not simply acquired through force. It was acquired through treaty.

Again, don't those lands belong to the Palestinians, not Jordan or Egypt, I mean its not like there are Jordanians or Eygtians in Refugee camps.

 

[Kelly]

Again, don't those lands belong to the Palestinians, not Jordan or Egypt, I mean its not like there are Jordanians or Eygtians in Refugee camps.

I do not believe that the Palestinians can legally prove they own any land.....therein lies their biggest hurdle to a state of their own.

 

[The Overlord]

I do not believe that the Palestinians can legally prove they own any land.....therein lies their biggest hurdle to a state of their own.

But then who does own the land? Can Jordan or Egypt prove they own that land? Who did own that land circa 1946? If the Palestians didn't own that land, why are they in refugee camps then?

 

[Kelly]

But then who does own the land? Can Jordan or Egypt prove they own that land? Who did own that land circa 1946? If the Palestians didn't own that land, why are they in refugee camps then?

Yes, but the land was taken by Israel, through war....

 

[luke1234]

That is rather bold...and quite scary to even think about.

yeah it is, time to reset the doomsday clock

 

[The Overlord]

Yes, but the land was taken by Israel, through war....

So what? The USSR took Poland after WWII, was that a valid exchange? Taking something in a war doesn't mean legitimate ownership.

Here's the problem with that region, its been conquered and reconquered so many times, drawn and redrawn since the dawn of recorded history, that proving ownership of anything there would be a problem. Its a bloody mess. If you want to get technical, neither Palestine or Israel own that land, it is owned the Caanites. Since there are no Caanites around anymore, let's just come up with the most fair and reasonable solutions to this problem today, instead worrying about the messy and bloody history of who owns what, in that region, which can stretch out for centuries.

 

[StorminNorman]

Poll: Few Iranians see US favorably, despite Obama

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98MJF002&show_article=1

 

[Paradyme]

I find that confusing since most of the footage I've seen of Iran and the people they look quite...westernized.

 

[The Overlord]

Poll: Few Iranians see US favorably, despite Obama

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98MJF002&show_article=1

That ingores the fact that its impossible to get an unbiased poll out of Iran, the governemnt there will always have the results rigged. There is an underground sub culture in Iran, that would not answer this poll, that does like the US and hate the current regime, its hard to get a reasonable poll out of that country.

 

[Marx]

Poll: Few Iranians see US favorably, despite Obama

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98MJF002&show_article=1

In all honesty, I blame the Iranian goverment for that.

 

[Kelly]

So what? The USSR took Poland after WWII, was that a valid exchange? Taking something in a war doesn't mean legitimate ownership.

Here's the problem with that region, its been conquered and reconquered so many times, drawn and redrawn since the dawn of recorded history, that proving ownership of anything there would be a problem. Its a bloody mess. If you want to get technical, neither Palestine or Israel own that land, it is owned the Caanites. Since there are no Caanites around anymore, let's just come up with the most fair and reasonable solutions to this problem today, instead worrying about the messy and bloody history of who owns what, in that region, which can stretch out for centuries.

The UN gave Israel a certain portion of land, as the years went by and Israel was attacked at certain time, they gained land. Most gained during the 6-day war in the 1960's.....

Then we need to take a look at the land we gained from war, and international law says it is legitimately ours.

But, you are correct, keeping their eyes on history rather than the future will not help. That is why peace negotiating starts out #1, with both parties agreeing not to look at their history. That is why peace negotiations between these 2 parties stall so quickly.