The Iran Thread

If it's proven Iran's helping the insurgency kill American troops, do we invade Iran?

  • yes

  • no

  • not sure


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I have not heard of such a request yet, and I do not believe that military intervention would be proper at this moment.

If the Iranian's people quest for freedom is as true and as strong as I think it is - or at least want to believe it is - then escalation of this will be inevitable. If that assumption is true, the Iranian government will provide an opportunity for America to intervene - even though many liberal bloggers, those that supposedly are all about "human rights" - will disagree.
 
It is not our job to interfere or intervene in Iran. Right now this country doesn't have the resources (or the patience) to listen to uneducated Chickenhawks pipe dream about sending our soldiers into another conflict. Dialogue about that right now is flat out ignorant and insulting to people serving in our overworked military.

Instead of trying top create another distraction from our 8 yr. old issues, put that energy into coming up with a health care plan with some details to it.
 
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As that idiom goes, "The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions". One must put a lot of thought on action and consequences, of course I am not advocating one be indecisive. As bad as things are, it can get a hell lot worse for the long term if things destabilizes in Iran.

In the all encompassing picture, I think the conflict has less to do with liberty and democracy. From what I can observe, Ahmadinejad and Mousavi wants to re-allocate power differently. That's really it.

The former maintains the status quo (subsidize rural poor), while the latter wants more money for the urb/suburb middle class. Mousavi's backers (businesses) seem to rely on exports and foreign capitalization, while Ahmadinejad's business backers are more domestic oriented. I think this is what it really boils down to. Any notion of democratic revolution or new government is merely one side trying to legitimize themselves comparatively to the other side. Any media exposure is better than none.

I think the western media and vocal minority are piggybacking on this and rewriting the narrative quite a bit. They are preying on the hopes of dreams of those who want "change" from this status quo. In other words, it makes for a good story to sell.

Well as I said earlier I really feel this is a battle between Rahsanjani and Khamanei. However, people are attempting to escalate it to get to something more. There is more discord then you may think but it is not the type of discord we hope for.

I personally do not have much hope that anything will really change given Moussavi is of the same cloth as Admenhijad. He just happens to be the accidental leader of this campaign.

And the demographics that you have shown are not necessarily accuarte given I have one paper which shows Moussavi with the overwhelming majority and Admanhijad way behind. these documents that we both have may or may not be true as they would both be unverifiable and unless you have a secret apparatus with private information, you cannot know what is happening there based on certain studies that were made public.

Not to say, that the imagery of the violence may also be manipulated.
 
In one of my few agreements with the President.
Personally I think he is taking the right stand with the people in Iran.

Keep us out of it. Show a little agreement with them...but not wholeheartedly jump in with them.
 
We CANNOT get into every revolution around the world. It IS NOT our job.

Hell, even Israel is being cautious in their wording.

We are not the world's police....IF we will show some restraint, I believe, others will step up.

If we cannot do this in the same EXACT manner that we did in Kosovo, then it will turn into another Iraq, and I sure as hell will not go for that. I'll be in the streets.....

You do know that if it wasn't for Carter, there would probably not have been any Islamic Revolution. I doubt the US could do much today but I find your whole statement so offensive given this situation that many Iranians are in was caused by the powers of the west. For them to step up now would be consistent with the past.

One other thing is to compare Iran to Iraq is to be very ignorant of Iran. They are very different and to add, Persian Iranians are not Arabs. The countries are very different and really only share a geographical closeness.

In any case, not much will happen in the end. At most, Khamanei will abdicate or forced to resign in favour of Rahfsanjani.
 
We already are. At some level the CIA is involved, and I think they should be. All oppressed people of the world should find a friend in the United States. It's our moral responsibility to stand with any group of people attempting to procure their own freedom.

But there doubtlessly needs to be a proactive international response to this. The Islamic regime must be made to understand that any brutal suppression of innocent protestors is unacceptable.

In the end, one of two things are going to happen here...the Ayatollah will kill enough of the protestors to scare the rest of them into line...or each protestor killed will fuel a growing movement toward revolution. Now, if that happens, the U.S. will have to play a pivotal role to ensure it's success.

Imagine if 30 years from now, Iran and Iraq are strong democratic allies in the Middle East and George W. Bush is considred by historians as a foreign policy mastermind. What a world that would be

You see thats the problem the west will say we condem these acts and then the Ayatollah and his buddies turn around and say to their people look the west is interfering again telling us how to live our lives ect

Also lets not kid ourselves here although everyone wants freedom for the Iranian people what the US and European goverments want is a pro-western friendly goverment who will jump when the west ask how high.

There is a long history western countries supporting whoever is the enemy of our enemy without doing duedilligence on these folks only for them to turn around and cause us brand new headaches a decade later.

As Paradoxium has said People really need to get past this idea that middle eastern countries are gonna turn into mini-American democracies just because they want them too. Most democratic countries took centuries, numerous wars and bloodshed and social upheaval to come to the democratic system we have today and even then there is still room for improvement. What works for some doesn't work for everyone.
 
I just watched the Neda Video and its truly awful. I could only imagine what was going through her father's head as he was trying to revive her back to life. What a tragic story.
 
You see thats the problem the west will say we condem these acts and then the Ayatollah and his buddies turn around and say to their people look the west is interfering again telling us how to live our lives ect

Also lets not kid ourselves here although everyone wants freedom for the Iranian people what the US and European goverments want is a pro-western friendly goverment who will jump when the west ask how high.

There is a long history western countries supporting whoever is the enemy of our enemy without doing duedilligence on these folks only for them to turn around and cause us brand new headaches a decade later.

As Paradoxium has said People really need to get past this idea that middle eastern countries are gonna turn into mini-American democracies just because they want them too. Most democratic countries took centuries, numerous wars and bloodshed and social upheaval to come to the democratic system we have today and even then there is still room for improvement. What works for some doesn't work for everyone.

I half agree here...I think its important for the US to put across that we support truly democratic governments, but don't pitch a fit when the people there elect someone we may not support
 
If Iran wants democracy...The iranian people should fight for it.."like they're doing now. We have no buiness getting involved

Our prez is doing the right thing now..hes saying the right things
 
I don't think there is anyone that logically thinks we should get involved either internally or militarily(sp?)
 
I think it would be naive to think we aren't in some way funding the resistance.
 
Actually there is a lot less funding then you may think just because noone knows who to fund. certainly nowhere near the amount used to fund Khomeini in '78. Remember just until these protests Moussavi was a pillar of the revolution.
 
Edit: The Iranian Government caused this double post ;)
 
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Oh, without a doubt we are feeding it somehow behind the scenes (black ops).

I just have no interest in getting this country involved in Iran. This is something the people need to do, whether the end result is good (Khamanei is deposed) or bad (the people are put underfoot.

After Iraq, we need to give harsh criticism and skepticism to anyone who feels we need to play Team America: World Police.
 
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Oh, without a doubt we are feeding it somehow behind the scenes (black ops).

I just have no interest in getting this country involved in Iran. This is something the people need to do, whether the end result is good (Khomeini is deposed) or bad (the people are put underfoot.

After Iraq, we need to give harsh criticism and skepticism to anyone who feels we need to play Team America: World Police.

Khomeini is dead and it is currently Khamanei and the only good result would be an end to the Islamic Republic which i doubt but hope it will happen.
 
This is my thoughts on Iran.

This little revolution will get crushed and the govt will crack down tighter.
But 60% of the population is younger than 30, so most people were not around for the 1979 revolution.

I think a new revolution will occur in the future, basically started from here...but years in the future...for instance like 5 or 10 years in the future.
 
It is not our job to interfere or intervene in Iran.

It is our job to make America safer. A democratic Iran makes America safer.

The time to act in Iran is not now - but if the protests continue, if the people of Iran continue to act then escalation WILL happen. When it does, America should do what is necessary to protect the people of Iran.
 
It's quite possible. The people who want reform right now are an angry mob, and the gov't is going to stamp them out just like China did in Tiananmen Square. However, after being driven underground and organizing for a few years from now (hopefully sooner rather than later), they're going to come back and knock down the current regime with a an organized revolution, and possibly getting support from pro-democracy countries in the west (whether open or covert).

One thing's for sure though-- Iran is NOT going to modernize as long as the supreme leader sits in his chair. The country is a dictatorship, and Achmadinajad is just the SL's puppet, so the only thing that the elections are for is deciding what the guy who will have the SL's hand up their ass. Clearly, if Mousavi is half the reformer he claims to be, there's no way that the SL would ever allow him to be elected, which I think is why we see such suspicious looking election results coming out of Iran.

I think the SL allowed Mousavi to run because he was hoping that he'd serve as a straw-man candidate, who would offend Achmadinajad's zealot base and make the results seem believable to the public. Clearly though, he was a lot more popular and influential than the SL anticipated, and now the whole gov't is in damage control.
 
In one of my few agreements with the President.
Personally I think he is taking the right stand with the people in Iran.

Keep us out of it. Show a little agreement with them...but not wholeheartedly jump in with them.

Yeah, I'm also in agreement with the President on this issue. I know that some GOP senators are criticizing him for it but I think it's the right thing to do.
 
Second double post of the day :(

Very interesting article below with a little bit behind the economic interests of the people in power.
 
Forbes from 2003

A nuclear threat to the rest of the world, Iran is robbing its own people of prosperity. But the men at the top are getting extremely rich.

It's rumble time in Tehran. At dozens of intersections in the capital of Iran thousands of students are protesting on a recent Friday around midnight, as they do nearly every night, chanting pro-democracy slogans and lighting bonfires on street corners. Residents of the surrounding middle-class neighborhoods converge in their cars, honking their horns in raucous support.

Suddenly there's thunder in the air. A gang of 30 motorcyclists, brandishing iron bars and clubs as big as baseball bats, roars through the stalled traffic. They glare at the drivers, yell threats, thump cars. Burly and bearded, the bikers yank two men from their auto and pummel them. Most protesters scatter. Uniformed policemen watch impassively as the thugs beat the last stragglers.



These Hell's Angels are part of the Hezbollah militia, recruited mostly from the countryside. Iran's ruling mullahs roll them out whenever they need to intimidate their opponents. The Islamic Republic is a strange dictatorship. As it moves to repress growing opposition to clerical rule, the regime relies not on soldiers or uniformed police (many of whom sympathize with the protesters) but on the bullies of Hezbollah and the equally thuggish Revolutionary Guards. The powers that be claim to derive legitimacy from Allah but remain on top with gangsterlike methods of intimidation, violence and murder.

Who controls today's Iran? Certainly not Mohammad Khatami, the twice-elected moderate president, or the reformist parliament. Not even the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, a stridently anti-American but unremarkable cleric plucked from the religious ranks 14 years ago to fill the shoes of his giant predecessor, Ayatollah Khomeini, is fully in control. The real power is a handful of clerics and their associates who call the shots behind the curtain and have gotten very rich in the process.

The economy bears more than a little resemblance to the crony capitalism that sprouted from the wreck of the Soviet Union. The 1979 revolution expropriated the assets of foreign investors and the nation's wealthiest families; oil had long been nationalized, but the mullahs seized virtually everything else of value--banks, hotels, car and chemical companies, makers of drugs and consumer goods. What distinguishes Iran is that many of these assets were given to Islamic charitable foundations, controlled by the clerics. According to businessmen and former foundation executives, the charities now serve as slush funds for the mullahs and their supporters.

Iran has other lethal secrets besides its nuclear program, now the subject of prying international eyes. Dozens of interviews with businessmen, merchants, economists and former ministers and other top government officials reveal a picture of a dictatorship run by a shadow government that--the U.S. State Department suspects--finances terrorist groups abroad through a shadow foreign policy. Its economy is dominated by shadow business empires and its power is protected by a shadow army of enforcers.

Ironically, the man most adept at manipulating this hidden power structure is one of Iran's best-known characters--Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who has been named an ayatollah, or religious leader. He was the speaker of parliament and Khomeini's right-hand man in the 1980s, president of Iran from 1989 to 1997 and is now chairman of the powerful Expediency Council, which resolves disputes between the clerical establishment and parliament. Rafsanjani has more or less run the Islamic Republic for the past 24 years.

He played it smart, aligning himself in the 1960s with factions led by Ayatollah Khomeini, then becoming the go-to guy after the revolution. A hard-liner ideologically, Rafsanjani nonetheless has a pragmatic streak. He convinced Khomeini to end the Iran-Iraq war and broke Iran's international isolation by establishing trade relations with the Soviet Union, China, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. In the 1990s he restarted Iran's nuclear program. He is also the father of Iran's "privatization" program. During his presidency the stock market was revived, some government companies were sold to insiders, foreign trade was liberalized and the oil sector was opened up to private companies. Most of the good properties and contracts, say dissident members of Iran's Chamber of Commerce, ended up in the hands of mullahs, their associates and, not least, Rafsanjani's own family, who rose from modest origins as small-scale pistachio farmers.

"They were not rich people, so they worked hard and always tried to help their relatives get ahead," remembers Reza, a historian who declines to use his last name and who studied with one of Rafsanjani's brothers at Tehran University in the early 1970s. "When they were in university, two brothers earned money on the side tutoring theological students and preparing their exam papers."

Discontent Unveiled
Disaffected, denied opportunity and just plain bored, Iran's youth have taken their frustrations with the clerics' regime to the streets.

Iran U.S.

Population 67 million 283 million
Percent under 25 65% 35%
GDP per capita $1,800 $37,000
Inflation 25% 2%
Unemployment 18% 6%

Sources: U.S. Census Bureau; U.S. Department of Labor; Atieh Bahar Consulting; Forbes estimates.
The 1979 revolution transformed the Rafsanjani clan into commercial pashas. One brother headed the country's largest copper mine; another took control of the state-owned TV network; a brother-in-law became governor of Kerman province, while a cousin runs an outfit that dominates Iran's $400 million pistachio export business; a nephew and one of Rafsanjani's sons took key positions in the Ministry of Oil; another son heads the Tehran Metro construction project (an estimated $700 million spent so far). Today, operating through various foundations and front companies, the family is also believed to control one of Iran's biggest oil engineering companies, a plant assembling Daewoo automobiles, and Iran's best private airline (though the Rafsanjanis insist they do not own these assets).

None of this sits well with the populace, whose per capita income is $1,800 a year. The gossip on the street, going well beyond the observable facts, has the Rafsanjanis stashing billions of dollars in bank accounts in Switzerland and Luxembourg; controlling huge swaths of waterfront in Iran's free economic zones on the Persian Gulf; and owning whole vacation resorts on the idyllic beaches of Dubai, Goa and Thailand.

But not much of the criticism makes its way into print. One journalist who dared to investigate Rafsanjani's secret dealings and his alleged role in extrajudicial killings of dissidents is now languishing in jail. He's lucky. Iranian politics can be deadly. Five years ago Tehran was rocked by murders of journalists and anticorruption activists; some were beheaded, others mutilated.

Some of the family's wealth is out there for all to see. Rafsanjani's youngest son, Yaser, owns a 30-acre horse farm in the super-fashionable Lavasan neighborhood of north Tehran, where land goes for over $4 million an acre. Just where did Yaser get his money? A Belgian-educated businessman, he runs a large export-import firm that includes baby food, bottled water and industrial machinery.

Until a few years ago the simplest way to get rich quick was through foreign-currency trades. Easy, if you could get greenbacks at the subsidized import rate of 1,750 rials to the dollar and resell them at the market rate of 8,000 to the dollar. You needed only the right connections for an import license. "I estimate that, over a period of ten years, Iran lost $3 billion to $5 billion annually from this kind of exchange-rate fraud," says Saeed Laylaz, an economist, now with Iran's biggest carmaker. "And the lion's share of that went to about 50 families."

One of the families benefiting from the foreign trade system was the Asgaroladis, an old Jewish clan of bazaar traders, who converted to Islam several generations ago. Asadollah Asgaroladi exports pistachios, cumin, dried fruit, shrimp and caviar, and imports sugar and home appliances; his fortune is estimated by Iranian bankers to be some $400 million. Asgaroladi had a little help from his older brother, Habibollah, who, as minister of commerce in the 1980s, was in charge of distributing lucrative foreign-trade licenses. (He was also a counterparty to commodities trader and then-fugitive Marc Rich, who helped Iran bypass U.S.-backed sanctions.)

The other side of Iran's economy belongs to the Islamic foundations, which account for 10% to 20% of the nation's GDP--$115 billion last year. Known as bonyads, the best-known of these outfits were established from seized property and enterprises by order of Ayatollah Khomeini in the first weeks of his regime. Their mission was to redistribute to the impoverished masses the "illegitimate" wealth accumulated before the revolution by "apostates" and "blood-sucking capitalists." And, for a decade or so, the foundations shelled out money to build low-income housing and health clinics. But since Khomeini's death in 1989 they have increasingly forsaken their social welfare functions for straightforward commercial activities.

Until recently they were exempt from taxes, import duties and most government regulation. They had access to subsidized foreign currency and low-interest loans from state-owned banks. And they were not accountable to the Central Bank, the Ministry of Finance or any other government institution. Formally, they are under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Leader; effectively, they operate without any oversight at all, answerable only to Allah.

According to *****e Muslim tradition, devout businessmen are expected to donate 20% of profits to their local mosques, which use the money to help the poor. By contrast, many bonyads seem like straightforward rackets, extorting money from entrepreneurs. Besides the biggest national outfits, almost every Iranian town has its own bonyad, affiliated with local mullahs. "Many small businessmen complain that as soon as you start to make some money, the leading mullah will come to you and ask for a contribution to his local charity," says an opposition economist, who declines to give his name. "If you refuse, you will be accused of not being a good Muslim. Some witnesses will turn up to testify that they heard you insult the Prophet Mohammad, and you will be thrown in jail." The Cosa Nostra meets fundamentalism.

Other charities resemble multinational conglomerates. The Mostazafan & Jambazan Foundation (Foundation for the Oppressed and War Invalids) is the second-largest commercial enterprise in the country, behind the state-owned National Iranian Oil Co. Until recently it was run by a man named Mohsen Rafiqdoost. The son of a vegetable-and-fruit merchant at the Tehran bazaar, Rafiqdoost got his big break in 1979, when he was chosen to drive Ayatollah Khomeini from the airport after his triumphal return from exile in Paris.

Khomeini made him Minister of the Revolutionary Guards to quash internal dissent and smuggle in weapons for the Iran-Iraq war. In 1989, when Rafsanjani became president, Rafiqdoost gained control of the Mostazafan Foundation, which employs up to 400,000 workers and has assets that in all probability exceed $10 billion. Among its holdings: the former Hyatt and Hilton hotels in Tehran; the highly successful Zam-Zam soft drink company (once Pepsi); an international shipping line; companies producing oil products and cement; swaths of farmland and urban real estate.

Theoretically the Mostazafan Foundation is a social welfare organization. By 1996 it began taking government funds to cover welfare disbursements; soon it plans to spin off its social responsibilities altogether, leaving behind a purely commercial conglomerate owned by--whom? That is not clear. Why does this foundation exist? "I don't know--ask Mr. Rafiqdoost," says Abbas Maleki, a foreign policy adviser to Ayatollah Rafsanjani.

A picture emerges from one Iranian businessman who used to handle the foreign trade deals for one of the big foundations. Organizations like the Mostazafan serve as giant cash boxes, he says, to pay off supporters of the mullahs, whether they're thousands of peasants bused in to attend religious demonstrations in Tehran or Hezbollah thugs who beat up students. And, not least, the foundations serve as cash cows for their managers.

"It usually works like this," explains this businessman. "Some foreigner comes in, proposes a deal to the foundation head. The big boss says: ‘Fine. I agree. Work out the details with my administrator.' So the foreigner goes to see the administrator, who tells him: ‘You know that we have two economies here--official and unofficial. You have to be part of the unofficial economy if you want to be successful. So, you have to deposit the following amount into the following bank account abroad and then the deal will go forward.'"

Today Rafiqdoost heads up the Noor Foundation, which owns apartment blocks and makes an estimated $200 million importing pharmaceuticals, sugar and construction materials. He is quick to downplay his personal wealth. "I am just a normal person, with normal wealth," he says. Then, striking a Napoleonic pose, he adds: "But if Islam is threatened, I will become big again."

Implication: that he has access to a secret reservoir of money that can be tapped when the need arises. That may have been what Ayatollah Rafsanjani had in mind when he declared recently that the Islamic Republic needed to keep large funds in reserve. But who is to determine when Islam is in danger?

As minister of the Revolutionary Guards in the 1980s, Rafiqdoost played a key role in sponsoring Hezbollah in Lebanon--which kidnapped foreigners, hijacked airplanes, set off car bombs, trafficked in heroin and pioneered the use of suicide bombers. According to Gregory Sullivan, spokesman for the Near Eastern Affairs Bureau at the U.S. State Department, the foundations are the perfect vehicles to carry out Iran's shadow foreign policy. (One of them offered the $2.8 million bounty to anyone who carried out Ayatollah Khomeini's fatwa to kill British author Salman Rushdie.) Whenever suspicion of complicity in a terrorist incident--in Saudi Arabia, Israel, Argentina--turns to Iran, the Tehran government has denied involvement. State Department officials suspect that such operations may be sponsored by one of the foundations and semiautonomous units of the Revolutionary Guards. If anyone in Iran is aiding al Qaeda, that may be the best place to look.

Iran's foundations are a law unto themselves. The largest "charity" (at least in terms of real estate holdings) is the centuries-old Razavi Foundation, charged with caring for Iran's most revered shrine--the tomb of Reza, the Eighth *****e Imam, in the northern city of Mashhad. It is run by one of Iran's leading hard-line mullahs, Ayatollah Vaez-Tabasi, who prefers to stay out of the public eye but emerges occasionally to urge death to apostates and other opponents of the clerical regime.

The Razavi Foundation owns vast tracts of urban real estate all across Iran, as well as hotels, factories, farms and quarries. Its assets are impossible to value with any precision, since the foundation has never released an inventory of its holdings, but Iranian economists speak of a net asset value of $15 billion or more. The foundation also receives generous contributions from the millions of pilgrims who visit the Mashhad shrine each year.

What happens to annual revenues estimated in the hundreds of millions--perhaps billions--of dollars? Not all of it goes to cover the maintenance costs of mosques, cemeteries, religious schools and libraries. Over the past decade the foundation has bought new businesses and properties, established investment banks (together with investors from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates), funded real estate projects and financed big foreign trade deals.

The driving force behind the commercialization of the Razavi Foundation is Ayatollah Tabasi's son, Naser, who was put in charge of the Sarakhs Free Trade Zone, on the border with the former Soviet republic of Turkmenistan. In the 1990s the foundation poured hundreds of millions of dollars into this project, funding a rail link between Iran and Turkmenistan, new highways, an international airport, a hotel and office buildings. It even paid $2.3 million to a Swiss firm to erect a huge tent for the ceremonies inaugurating the Iran-Turkmenistan rail link.

Then it all went wrong. In July 2001 Naser Tabasi was dismissed as director of the Free Trade Zone. Two months later he was arrested and charged with fraud in connection with a Dubai-based company called Al-Makasib. The details of the case remain murky, but four months ago the General Court of Tehran concluded that Naser Tabasi had not known that he was breaking the law and acquitted him.

Few receive even a slap on the wrist. A rare exception: Hard-line cleric Hadi Ghaffari, who specialized in seizing expropriated properties, like Star Stockings (maker of sexy lingerie), and reselling them at a nice profit. He was convicted of embezzlement in the early 1990s.

Iran's most distinguished senior clerics are disgusted by the mullahcrats. Ayatollah Taheri, Friday prayer leader of the city of Isfahan, resigned in protest earlier this year. "When I hear that some of the privileged progeny and special people, some of whom even don cloaks and turbans, are competing amongst themselves to amass the most wealth," he said, "I am drenched with the sweat of shame."

Meanwhile the clerical elite has mismanaged the nation into senseless poverty. With 9% of the world's oil and 15% of its natural gas, Iran should be a very rich country. It has a young, educated population and a long tradition of craftsmanship and international commerce. But per capita income today is actually 7% below what it was before the revolution. Iranian economists estimate capital flight (to Dubai and other safe havens) at up to $3 billion a year.

No wonder so many students turn to the streets in protest. The dictatorship tells them what to think, what to wear, and what to eat and drink. It has also been robbing them of their future.
 
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