The Issue of Hulk and Civilian Deaths

[FrostBite]

See, even this arguing alone proves that they should have left this out of the movie. To come out and tell us the Hulk has killed . .

Ugh. REALLY disappointing.

Even WWH Hulk couldn't kill anyone, and thats the MADDEST he's ever been.

F-ing Ultimate universe. More trouble its brought than good.

I don't understand how people take stories PERSONALLY. I don't like the Ultimates either but dang.

By the way your logic is flawed too. We comic fans fight over anything. Heck, we fight that a giant 10 ft tall green man doesn't look real. We fight over a clown having permawhite skin, we fight over organic web-shooters, we fight if they change the color of someones irises.

Seriously, it's getting pretty ******* infuriating to hear people whine so much now a days.

I don't care for TDK, I don't whine about it, I don't go "SEE! NOLAN SHOULD NEVER HAVE CHANGED A THING!" Because YES THEY SHOULD. It's their opportunity to tell their stories, not ones that have been told 8 million times.

And with that, I bid you all adieu, I hope everyones anger doesn't cause them to turn into the beast that dwells within.

 

[FrostBite]

Banner's main reason I felt for getting rid of the hulk was because of what the army could do with it. That seemed like his main catalyst and he'd stop being on the run once he had gotten rid of it, otherwise he has no reason to be on the run, he could work from the states.
Again, you are painting black and white boxes of what would happen if it didn't go the way it did.

All I needed was an acknoledgement of how the deaths of innocents affected banner and the film made no direct link to that even though they made direct link to the hulk commiting manslaugter (murder would be too harsh although what he did to blonksy was along the lines of murder, kicking an unarmed man to his potential death)


Norton was hardly bixby, that dude looked like he had totally lost everything and the hulk had taken all efforts of morality from him apart from the killing.

Look at the green goblin/norman osborn line. Osborn was worried about the people he killed but he was persuaded by the goblin to continue, the hulk has no such effect on banners moral.

If a cold hearted person like norman would want to hand himself in for playing a part in some deaths he had no control over yet banner doesn't, what does that say about the banner's moral fibre?

Wow, this really is a merry-go-round of frustration. I say one thing, you repeat what you just said before, I make an argument against it... and you say the exact same thing over and over.

It's like talking to a tape recorder set on repeat. This isn't a personal attack but merely my frustration with how forums work in general needlessly frustrating for both parties. (Or hopefully it's not for you, but it is for me, and thus, I must really stay away until the heat dies down.)

Over to Hulkspace with me. I'll wait for the Hype to cool down on minute matters it's not worth my effort to argue for days over perspective matters. (Not that it's not addicting, it's just not gaining me anything.)

 

[November Rain]

Oh man oh man, I couldn't help but respond again. I see that in Black and White, because ROSS TELLS US POINT BLANK "I want it." Funny enough, I didn't see Ross as a bad guy, but a power hungry man. He saw the error of his ways later.

Your second point makes no sense, a parent isn't imprisoned if their child murders someone. Sure people give the parent angry stares, but they aren't the ones punished. (I.e. Bruce shouldn't be punished.) Yeah the kid would be locked away, which goes right back to the Hulk being cured, it's the Hulk being banished from manifesting.

Not likely from what I saw.

What didn't you get from Ross saying multiple times "We want it, we don't care about you, we just want the power." Over and over and over. Sure his motivations are not cut and dry but that is what he wants (up until the end) pure and simple.

Again, you are right, he has no reason to not trust them, except the fact Thunderbolt has made it abundantly clear to him many times that he wants him as a weapon.

Really I hate to sound like a dick, but I just cannot understand where you come from in the slightest.

The only thing that made any sense to me here was the Siamese twin example, except for you know, your Siamese twin isn't a miracle of science that the military has point blank told you they want to use to kill people on several occasions.

The parent comment was a starting point that evolved into teh siamese twin argument so I included both to highlight my method of thought.

As for what Ross thinks, Bruce doesn't know what Ross thinks because bruce and ross haven't interacted since he turned initially so his whole train of thought (even though it has elements that are true) are completley self developed and is a half truth.

Also handing yourself in to the proper authorities for a death isn't so much the same as being taken in to the military especially when in another country.

All your points seem to think it's justified to not be responsible if you feel someone is going to be less responsible than you are even though you have no proof. So any superhero in affect is allowed kill an innocent person because if the government get their hands on them, they'll make soldiers out of them and become 'Evil'. It doesn't wash because when the death toll starts getting into their hundreds, you lose the abiliity to relate because banner's let it go too far but in my eyes, one life is just as bad as 100.

So in tern, it comes down to who thinks what is important.

You feel banner's responsibility to the world o) and not letting the army get control of the hulk for their wicked (nothing the army did or showed was particularly wicked) schemes against the threats of america (even though he signed for an army project which was going to provide 'similar' things anyway). The lives of those I killed were ultimately collateral damage and prospects could be worse if the wicked army got a hold of me, wicked army, they are bad for trying to stop me killing innocents...

or

Banner's well thought moral conscience to have the ability to man up and go, 'you know what, I'm a danger to innocents and if i've got any real chance to cure myself while keeping others safe (and potential loved ones), I should give myself in. I've killed before, I can kill again. I'll have to take and deal with anything else that comes my way later'

so swings and roundabouts BUT I can't relate to people with the first temperament.

 

[November Rain]

Wow, this really is a merry-go-round of frustration. I say one thing, you repeat what you just said before, I make an argument against it... and you say the exact same thing over and over.

It's like talking to a tape recorder set on repeat. This isn't a personal attack but merely my frustration with how forums work in general needlessly frustrating for both parties. (Or hopefully it's not for you, but it is for me, and thus, I must really stay away until the heat dies down.)

Over to Hulkspace with me. I'll wait for the Hype to cool down on minute matters it's not worth my effort to argue for days over perspective matters. (Not that it's not addicting, it's just not gaining me anything.)

I'm sorry if i've offended you in some way , I just feel that whole 'I've taken a life' and what significance that has on someone morally eithe negatively or positively. Banner had no direct response of either to it SPECIFICALLY rather the hulk's action in general, no specifics to KILLING.

Violence and damage and defending yourself is one thing to morally cope with but killing innocents is another ball game, kinda like taken someone's life drink driving, you just don't encompass that emotion in with the rest with regards to your driving it stands out (or i feel it does).

You watch cop films where people kill innocents and they never want to pick up a weapon again and they beat themselves up and they go through all the motions of taking it hard and visiting the victim's parents and all sorts, I just didn't feel banner had that connection to humanity nor that focus of blaming the hulk and having it as a catalyst for getting rid of him. The army thing was more important than killing people.

I'm sorry you're off but please don't feel like you were driven out.

Ultimately I feel the few lines have done more harm than good and they weren't necessary and then this wouldn't even be an issue because the hulk was alright at the end but i couldn't look at him in the same light as the crowds in the film as a saviour because he's probably killed some of their relatives in the past.

 

[Badfish40oz]

I don't understand how people take stories PERSONALLY.

You're right its completely irrational. Yes somehow it still annoys me. Comes with being a fanboy I guess.

 

[FrostBite]

I'm sorry if i've offended you in some way

Didn't offend me November. I was frustrated because it was wayyy to early for me to do the whole round about skit. Keep in mind while reading this, (though you did not know,) I went to bed at 4 after the midnight showing and was typing it around 8-10, was not a happy man after about a week of interrupted sleep.

Much like a two year old who doesn't get a lot of sleep. I should be the one apologizing I was just way to cranky. We're cool, and I am sorry.

I do understand where you come from, if I couldn't I'd be a bad writer (got to be able to visualize different mindsets.) I just felt a lot of sympathy for Bruce in the film, he seemed tormented. Sure he still cracked jokes here and there, but the panic in his eyes when that beast is about to emerge just screams "I don't want to hurt anyone" to me.

Also I don't think the army was cut and dry evil. I know why they wanted a weapon as well as knowing why they'd want to take down Hulk (specifically Ross who's daughter was hurt in the first Hulk out, it gave him a real reason to hate Bruce.)

I'd say the whole movie is encompassed in shades of gray in terms of the characters motivations, even Blonsky and Sterns aren't out right bad guys. (Well until Blonsky is driven mad by power.) It was one of the unifying themes I loved in this film.

I am sure Banner would love a facility to treat himself in if he handed himself in, but obviously not even Ross's own daughter trusts him [Ross] after that incident.

Let us remember, a lot of time has gone past since his first Hulk out in the movie, I am quite sure Banner knows Ross's intentions. And Banner did not sign up for a super solider program, Ross said "He thought he was working on a project to reduce radiation in cells." Actually making Banner a victim of the military as he did not know what he was working on (which is a bit stupid on Banner's part.)

 

[FrostBite]

You're right its completely irrational. Yes somehow it still annoys me. Comes with being a fanboy I guess.

No I totally understand, sometimes I lose it and feel offended over it too, as I said to November Rain I was cranky this morning from a bit of lack of sleep over the past few weeks.

But yes, let us remember, it is only a movie.

 

[markaudette]

TIH is the first step in the evolution of the Hulk and Bruce Banner.

The Hulk is still a savage creature. Bruce has just begun to learn how to channel the creature and control him within. So there's going to be innocent deaths in the Hulk's wake. In time Bruce will learn how to control the Hulk better. The Hulk will become smarter in time. And Bruce will make sure the Hulk will learn how to less destructive and save innocent lives.

But for right now, it's a learning process. Anbody who has to interact with the Hulk have to learn to give him a VERY wide berth.

Deaths will continue to happen. For right now the Hulk is still a monster. He's not Superman.

 

[xwolverine2]

i think he was pretty heroic in the film

 

[YJ1]

The thread is about civilian deaths, the hulk apparently has killed multiple civilians at different points during banner's time on the run.

Alleged civilian deaths. The only confirmation of this is General Ross telling Blonsky before the mission. It could be argued that General Ross was trying to make a point and what better way to drive home that point then by linking their target to civilian deaths? Was Ross exaggerating? Since the TV show is held in high regard by the creators of the movie remember this line from the TV opening... "The creature is wanted for a murder he didn't commit." That happened in the TV show all the time. Since they copied the TV show, maybe the scientists mentioned were accidentally killed at the Hulk's creation. The state trooper and "maybe" the hunters could have been propaganda. I know it's a stretch but nothing was absolute and I think that's intentional and very wise.

The more I think about it, Marvel may have pulled it off perfectly. You don't want to take the cartoony route and have Hulk not be a threat but you don't want deaths to take center stage. Connecting the dots and leaving it up to the viewer may be the best way to go.

Deaths will continue to happen. For right now the Hulk is still a monster. He's not Superman.

How many confirmed kills does the Hulk have in the film? I've already seen it multiple times and they covered themselves masterfully. There may be some and there may be none. Hulk running over soldiers with that large metal tank at the bottle factory couldn't have been good for their health but no confirmed kills there. All military personal scrambled away at the college.

Plus, I noticed something I haven't seen mentioned. If you watch the movie again, keep an eye on the cockpit of the helicopter he downs saving Betty. I thought I saw the whole cockpit eject before impact but you really needed to be looking closely at it on the big screen. If I'm right, they kept their options open when it came to Hulk killing military. They did it far better then the Ang Lee version. No cuts to people stumbling out of a tank after getting tossed across the desert.

What about the Blonsky kick you say? Did Hulk’s limit capacity deem him super powered enough to take it? Maybe. All good stuff.

 

[Bubonic]

I wouldn't want some cannibalistic homicidal maniac hulk, but some of you are being whiny irrational *****es about this.

He is the Hulk, he is a towering mass of muscle and rage.

He wants to be left alone.

Deep within him there is a humanity, there is some reason.

Yet most of his thinking is completely blinded by rage.

How would it be logical for him to tip-toe around foes who are throwing everything they got at him, doing all they can to kill or detain him, causing him pain...

He isn't an acrobatic fighter, he isn't full of finesse, he is a brute.

He doesn't go out of his way to grab the puny humans and pop their heads in his palms, but he could, he mostly just tries to get away, get those hurting them out of his way.

It is called collateral damage, and it be hard to avoid considering the almost mindless aspect of this version of the Hulk, but obviously he isn't a cold blooded killer.

He is heroic, he saved Betty, he saved New York.