The Last of Us The Last Of Us 2

[DarthSkywalker]

False advertising has nothing to do with anything. It's all about spinning negativity, agitating and griefing.

And answer me this. Nobody knows the whole picture regarding the game, nobody played it or even watched a letsplay to make an informed opinion. Why do you care about likes or dislikes? For you or anybody else it changes literally nothing. They won't change the game because it's what it is. You either skip the game because it's not to your liking (based on what you saw already), or you wait for more info/reviews/whatever to make your mind about a purchase. At this point likes and dislikes, thanks to the leaks, are instrument of war: your agenda vs. mine. It has little to do with the game itself. Why feed these people? There's barely place for neutral position or optimism. And for people who look forward to the game because they have to watch all this vomit to boil in front of their eyes.

When the game is out it's fair and square. I'll never support a studio that tries to shut people up after they had a fair shot at their game. But not at the moment. The game isn't out yet. No proper reviews. No nothing. Only bile of people who knee-jerked to the leaks.

Why? Because you said so? I know why I am pissed about this. Also it is fitting you chose those words considering the content of this game.

I don't care about the likes or dislikes. Sony caring about the likes or dislikes is the issue. They are attempting to curtail reaction to potential spoilers through damage control. If their work is their work and they stand by it, they should take it on the chin. This reeks of the GoT showrunners ghosting knowing they made the final season they made. Even if the game is fantastic, they are acting like they don't think it is.

Are you seriously arguing people aren't allowed to react to advertising or spoilers that leaked out? This is 2020. It's not a question of the whole picture to me. There is one simple thing I need to know, and if it turns out it isn't true then I will be fine. But if others aren't, that is their right. I am pro censoring hate speech. A like/dislike ratio? That's embarrassing.

 

[Snow Queen]

False advertising has nothing to do with anything. It's all about spinning negativity, agitating and griefing.

Spoiler

Eh, I think there's a degree of it here based on what's gotten out. I'm not making any moves with my copy because I'd like to hear more on the subject first, but I admit I had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction upon hearing one of the spoilers because that's not what I felt they were selling when they wanted me to shell out $80+ for it. If they had been a little more up front about switching characters for what apparently is half the game, I wouldn't be disappointed. I expected to switch characters for a section of it, given we did that last time around, and even expected it to be the one we're switching to. But I pre-ordered based on what they marketed the game as, which doesn't include the idea you spend half the game with another character.

Now, there's a possibility it works. There's a possibility the info is a bit old and therefore wrong. I don't know, which is why I'm waiting at present and probably not going to cancel, but I do think having characters play as someone else they've barely marketed for half a game is a pretty massive element they should have been up front about if it checks out. But I think they're aware of if they did that, it wouldn't sell as well as how they've chosen to approach it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Spoiler

Eh, I think there's a degree of it here based on what's gotten out. I'm not making any moves with my copy because I'd like to hear more on the subject first, but I admit I had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction upon hearing one of the spoilers because that's not what I felt they were selling when they wanted me to shell out $80+ for it. If they had been a little more up front about switching characters for what apparently is half the game, I wouldn't be disappointed. I expected to switch characters for a section of it, given we did that last time around, and even expected it to be the one we're switching to. But I pre-ordered based on what they marketed the game as, which doesn't include the idea you spend half the game with another character.

Now, there's a possibility it works. There's a possibility the info is a bit old and therefore wrong. I don't know, which is why I'm waiting at present and probably not going to cancel, but I do think having characters play as someone else they've barely marketed for half a game is a pretty massive element they should have been up front about if it checks out. But I think they're aware of if they did that, it wouldn't sell as well as how they've chosen to approach it.

This is where I am at.

Spoiler

If they were upfront about this, I wouldn't be worried. But they haven't been. If you know what you are getting yourself into, then that is fair. But if you are going to advertise the game as only playing as Ellie, advertise the game as being 20-25 hours, selling 230 dollar versions of the game, and then you find out that you spend half of that as someone else only once you play the game, that's BS imo. Especially how hard they are selling it. They are doing it this way, because they know the game would sell worse if people knew it were true. And now we don't know it's true, but if it is, that's just not right.

It would be like advertising DMC5 as playing as Dante, and not letting people know about V and Nero.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Why? Because you said so? I know why I am pissed about this. Also it is fitting you chose those words considering the content of this game.

No, because I talked to people who are pissed. On unmoderated spaces. Where anybody can say anything they want. False advertising was brought literally zero times. It's all about certain narrative decisions. I don't remember anyone saying "they promised me one thing, but instead it was something entirely different". It's more like "I wanted this, but instead I got this". Entitlement and bigotry was the answer in 95% cases.

False advertising is frequent during promotion. Sometimes to make a product look better than it is (infamous Watch Dogs, for example) and sometimes to keep element of surprise. I absolutely can't say they're hiding an inferior product regarding TLOU2. Everything I saw looked, sounded and performed on top level. What surprised me even more, that the game wasn't downgraded one bit from 2018 demo. At least on the comparable shots.

I don't care about the likes or dislikes. Sony caring about the likes or dislikes is the issue. They are attempting to curtail reaction to potential spoilers through damage control. If their work is their work and they stand by it, they should take it on the chin. This reeks of the GoT showrunners ghosting knowing they made the final season they made. Even if the game is fantastic, they are acting like they don't think it is.

I think we both understand that it doesn't work like that. People are easily agitated. It can lead to unfair losses. Even if the product ends up being great and the leaks didn't draw objective picture of it. So I understand Sony's move.

Are you seriously arguing people aren't allowed to react to advertising or spoilers that leaked out? This is 2020. It's not a question of the whole picture to me. There is one simple thing I need to know, and if it turns out it isn't true then I will be fine. But if others aren't, that is their right. I am pro censoring hate speech. A like/dislike ratio? That's embarrassing.

People can have any amount of reason to like or dislike something. As well as react to it. But does a company have a right to defend their products, especially considering the damage that was done by leaks? Ratio of hate speech vs. sensible criticism isn't in favor of the latter. Ratio bombing is part of hateful behavior.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

Eh, I think there's a degree of it here based on what's gotten out. I'm not making any moves with my copy because I'd like to hear more on the subject first, but I admit I had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction upon hearing one of the spoilers because that's not what I felt they were selling when they wanted me to shell out $80+ for it. If they had been a little more up front about switching characters for what apparently is half the game, I wouldn't be disappointed. I expected to switch characters for a section of it, given we did that last time around, and even expected it to be the one we're switching to. But I pre-ordered based on what they marketed the game as, which doesn't include the idea you spend half the game with another character.

Now, there's a possibility it works. There's a possibility the info is a bit old and therefore wrong. I don't know, which is why I'm waiting at present and probably not going to cancel, but I do think having characters play as someone else they've barely marketed for half a game is a pretty massive element they should have been up front about if it checks out. But I think they're aware of if they did that, it wouldn't sell as well as how they've chosen to approach it.

This is where it gets more complicated:

Spoiler

Abby (minus name) was introduced in the second trailer, that was released for the game. There was no sight of Ellie or Joel. Even Joel wasn't revealed properly at that point. People speculated Abby is playable based on how camera sets behind the character in the end of that trailer. While ND didn't open their cards entirely, it's not like the character wasn't introduced and appeared out of nowhere. So I can't really agree it's false advertising. More of that, if Abby wasn't seen doing something horrible, you know what I'm talking about, I'm not even sure people would even care that she's playable for half a game (assuming it's the case).

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No, because I talked to people who are pissed. On unmoderated spaces. Where anybody can say anything they want. False advertising was brought literally zero times. It's all about certain narrative decisions. I don't remember anyone saying "they promised me one thing, but instead it was something entirely different". It's more like "I wanted this, but instead I got this". Entitlement and bigotry was the answer in 95% cases.

That is anecdotal evidence. Which is evidence of nothing. You have two people here telling you that is their issue. Do we override everything else? I am over reading Resetera (where bigotry is not allowed) and it is all over the place. Same with Reddit. Does that mean I am correct and you are wrong? Not that any of that matters of course. Because people are allowed to express themselves however they like, outside of specific hate speech and such.

Also considering some of those "narrative decisions" are coming with the manipulation of game footage to make people think certain things to buy a game, well yeah. Yeah, I can understand the issue there.

False advertising is frequent during promotion. Sometimes to make a product look better than it is (infamous Watch Dogs, for example) and sometimes to keep element of surprise. I absolutely can't say they're hiding an inferior product regarding TLOU2. Everything I saw looked, sounded and performed on top level. What surprised me even more, that the game wasn't downgraded one bit from 2018 demo. At least on the comparable shots.

First, false advertisement is illegal.

Second, did you just advocate for it?

Third, you are limiting this to graphics and such. That is clearly not what is being discussed here.

I think we both understand that it doesn't work like that. People are easily agitated. It can lead to unfair losses. Even if the product ends up being great and the leaks didn't draw objective picture of it. So I understand Sony's move.

It most certainly does. The vast majority of the time, companies ride the wave, for better or worse. Lived through it with 8 Star Wars movies in my lifetime. Outside of some twitter raging from some people at LF, you didn't see stuff like this.

You also keep talking about this like there is some objective basis for whether anything is "good" or whether people like it. Reviewers represent only themselves. TLJ got a very good critical score from reviewers. We all know how that turned out.

No company is entitled to consumers money, and the idea that they may lose sales "unfairly" is just bizarre. What is your basis for arguing this? Spoiler culture didn't start with TLOU2. When Endgame clips started getting out "out of context" did that lead to the shutting down of people discussing them? To YT trailers being censored? Did it hurt the bottom line?

People can have any amount of reason to like or dislike something. As well as react to it. But does a company have a right to defend their products, especially considering the damage that was done by leaks? Ratio of hate speech vs. sensible criticism isn't in favor of the latter. Ratio bombing is part of hateful behavior.

What are they defending exactly? Why do they need to defend it? If someone isn't happy with it, for whatever reason, why must it "be defended" from a like or dislike ratio on a video?

HBO didn't nuke the internet from orbit because spoilers for GoT got out.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This is where it gets more complicated:

Spoiler

Abby (minus name) was introduced in the second trailer, that was released for the game. There was no sight of Ellie or Joel. Even Joel wasn't revealed properly at that point. People speculated Abby is playable based on how camera sets behind the character in the end of that trailer. While ND didn't open their cards entirely, it's not like the character wasn't introduced and appeared out of nowhere. So I can't really agree it's false advertising. More of that, if Abby wasn't seen doing something horrible, you know what I'm talking about, I'm not even sure people would even care that she's playable for half a game (assuming it's the case).

Spoiler

How much gameplay have they shown with Abby? Have they said Abby is playable and that you'd have to play as Abby for half the game? Have they said Ellie shares the narrative with Abby? They just released a video saying this is Ellie's story. Not Ellie and Abby's story. If you really play for Abby for a huge chunk of the game, it's false advertising.

I will let Snow Queen speak for herself. But my issue is being told you are going to play as one of your favorite characters for a full game, only to find out that isn't true with no reason to think otherwise.

Let me make this clear. I want the spoilers to be wrong. If you play the vast majority of this game as Ellie, like you did with Joel in the original I am ready. I won't have a complaint in that regard, and will be perfectly happy. but if it isn't that way, yeah I am calling BS. This is Raiden all over again, for no reason.

But if all of that was BS, then I am happy. I rather be worked up and then happy later then it actually be that way. Because I want to play the sequel to one of my favorite games.

 

[Snow Queen]

This is where it gets more complicated:

Spoiler

Abby (minus name) was introduced in the second trailer, that was released for the game. There was no sight of Ellie or Joel. Even Joel wasn't revealed properly at that point. People speculated Abby is playable based on how camera sets behind the character in the end of that trailer. While ND didn't open their cards entirely, it's not like the character wasn't introduced and appeared out of nowhere. So I can't really agree it's false advertising. More of that, if Abby wasn't seen doing something horrible, you know what I'm talking about, I'm not even sure people would even care that she's playable for half a game (assuming it's the case).

Spoiler

I don't know about other people. There's a lot of bigotry swirling around the character for reasons that, best I can tell (and I'm not looking super deep into spoilers, I do want some surprises), aren't actually in the game and are just people lobbing on because they want an outlet to express it. Toss in the Joel thing and you've got a recipe for a mess there, even if I don't think the decision is bad.

What I can say though is that, for myself, it's not really about the Joel thing. I've kinda figured we'd both play as her for a section and that Joel would die by her hand since September/October. I expected it towards the end of the game over what sounds like an earlier moment, but that's quibbling over specifics and that's an element I'm happy to just see the narrative play out on. It's just that they didn't market it that way. While they did introduce her, I don't think that constitutes an accurate representation of the playtime split of this game (assuming, of course, that it lines up with the couple years old level split chart). Because beyond that one trailer, they've done nothing with her while advertising exclusively on playing as Ellie. I don't think it'd be misleading in the advertising if she were, say, 20% of the game. Or 30% of the game. 40% starts to get a bit dicey. But at the more or less half and half mark, I feel like not saying anything about it feels misleading at best, and false advertising at worst.

Now, personally what I would suggest as an alternative is to basically do what they did now, but also release a second trailer in September about her seemingly unrelated story, be up front she's half the game, then center a lot of the marketing around the questions of how these stories connect, why they connect and when they connect. But I feel like the thought process is 'play this 20-25 hour game as one of those two characters you fell in love with in the first game' sells better than 'play for 10-ish hours as one of the two characters you fell in love with, and 10-ish as this new character.'

This is getting really lengthy because I've mostly restrained myself from babbling about it and now I'm just rambling it all together, but I do want to emphasize that my issue here isn't that the story doesn't work or the Joel situation. Based on the spoilers I know, not knowing any more than about 3 major ones and a more minor one, I can fit it together in a way that works. I can also fit it together in a way that sounds awful, but at the moment I don't think they'll go there despite it being my gut reaction when I heard said spoilers. But no matter how it shakes out, it does sound like I'm getting a different game than they told me I was when they wanted my pre-order. I'm not annoyed about the playtime split, but that I had to learn it through leaks less than two months before the game comes out and it does make me hesitant to believe their marketing in the future.

 

[OutOfBoose]

That is anecdotal evidence. Which is evidence of nothing. You have two people here telling you that is their issue. Do we override everything else? I am over reading Resetera (where bigotry is not allowed) and it is all over the place. Same with Reddit. Does that mean I am correct and you are wrong? Not that any of that matters of course. Because people are allowed to express themselves however they like, outside of specific hate speech and such.

Well, open /thelastofus2 and see for yourself. I'm not inventing anything. In resetera, that would be really interesting if bigotry was allowed and the whole discussion about TLOU2 was drowned in that ****. So those who have different concerns would be barely visible. Open any video under The Last of Us 2 and most liked posts aren't about perceived false advertising.

Also considering some of those "narrative decisions" are coming with the manipulation of game footage to make people think certain things to buy a game, well yeah. Yeah, I can understand the issue there.

I don't see any manipulation beyond perhaps clever editing. But it's in the every second movie trailer. So I don't see any issue.

First, false advertisement is illegal.

You know what I'm talking about. Clever editing, not revealing everything or even outright giving false info regarding narrative choices. I'm not seeing endless stream of lawsuits...

Third, you are limiting this to graphics and such. That is clearly not what is being discussed here.

No, I'm talking about situations where objective quality can be more or less measured. Better or worse texture, frames per second is precise stuff. Narrative choice isn't.

It most certainly does. The vast majority of the time, companies ride the wave, for better or worse. Lived through it with 8 Star Wars movies in my lifetime. Outside of some twitter raging from some people at LF, you didn't see stuff like this.

Let's not compare incomparable. Star Wars films had fair opportunity. People criticized them after they had a good look at what's in store. Maybe with exception of ROTS, because by that time general reputation was spoiled, so it formed certain expectations.

You also keep talking about this like there is some objective basis for whether anything is "good" or whether people like it. Reviewers represent only themselves. TLJ got a very good critical score from reviewers. We all know how that turned out.

That's not the point I'm trying to make. People are free to dislike anything they feel like. For any reason. But right now it's hate campaign. I have no issue whatsoever with 1000 pages of leaks discussions on resetera. Justified or not. Because they aren't spinning anything.

No company is entitled to consumers money, and the idea that they may lose sales "unfairly" is just bizarre. What is your basis for arguing this? Spoiler culture didn't start with TLOU2. When Endgame clips started getting out "out of context" did that lead to the shutting down of people discussing them? To YT trailers being censored? Did it hurt the bottom line?

I remember leaked clips being deleted. But there was no need to protect promo materials, like and dislike ratio was perfectly fine. There was no smear campaign.

What are they defending exactly? Why do they need to defend it? If someone isn't happy with it, for whatever reason, why must it "be defended" from a like or dislike ratio on a video?

HBO didn't nuke the internet from orbit because spoilers for GoT got out.

Because it's not just people aren't being happy with something. It's all about agenda now. It's just toxic and way beyond legitimate concerns that some people might have.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

How much gameplay have they shown with Abby? Have they said Abby is playable and that you'd have to play as Abby for half the game? Have they said Ellie shares the narrative with Abby? They just released a video saying this is Ellie's story. Not Ellie and Abby's story. If you really play for Abby for a huge chunk of the game, it's false advertising.

I will let Snow Queen speak for herself. But my issue is being told you are going to play as one of your favorite characters for a full game, only to find out that isn't true with no reason to think otherwise.

Let me make this clear. I want the spoilers to be wrong. If you play the vast majority of this game as Ellie, like you did with Joel in the original I am ready. I won't have a complaint in that regard, and will be perfectly happy. but if it isn't that way, yeah I am calling BS. This is Raiden all over again, for no reason.

But if all of that was BS, then I am happy. I rather be worked up and then happy later then it actually be that way. Because I want to play the sequel to one of my favorite games.

Spoiler

It can't be false advertising if they didn't promise your exclusively Ellie. Even if Abby is a huge part of the story, it's still can be Ellie story. It really depends on context.

So Abby killing Joel isn't an issue for you? Because I've got an impression from talking with people that it's the main problem - Joel is gone and he's killed by an unknown character that we have to play as. Your only problem is that the game is shared between Ellie and Abby without proper advertising of the idea?

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

I don't know about other people. There's a lot of bigotry swirling around the character for reasons that, best I can tell (and I'm not looking super deep into spoilers, I do want some surprises), aren't actually in the game and are just people lobbing on because they want an outlet to express it. Toss in the Joel thing and you've got a recipe for a mess there, even if I don't think the decision is bad.

What I can say though is that, for myself, it's not really about the Joel thing. I've kinda figured we'd both play as her for a section and that Joel would die by her hand since September/October. I expected it towards the end of the game over what sounds like an earlier moment, but that's quibbling over specifics and that's an element I'm happy to just see the narrative play out on. It's just that they didn't market it that way. While they did introduce her, I don't think that constitutes an accurate representation of the playtime split of this game (assuming, of course, that it lines up with the couple years old level split chart). Because beyond that one trailer, they've done nothing with her while advertising exclusively on playing as Ellie. I don't think it'd be misleading in the advertising if she were, say, 20% of the game. Or 30% of the game. 40% starts to get a bit dicey. But at the more or less half and half mark, I feel like not saying anything about it feels misleading at best, and false advertising at worst.

Now, personally what I would suggest as an alternative is to basically do what they did now, but also release a second trailer in September about her seemingly unrelated story, be up front she's half the game, then center a lot of the marketing around the questions of how these stories connect, why they connect and when they connect. But I feel like the thought process is 'play this 20-25 hour game as one of those two characters you fell in love with in the first game' sells better than 'play for 10-ish hours as one of the two characters you fell in love with, and 10-ish as this new character.'

This is getting really lengthy because I've mostly restrained myself from babbling about it and now I'm just rambling it all together, but I do want to emphasize that my issue here isn't that the story doesn't work or the Joel situation. Based on the spoilers I know, not knowing any more than about 3 major ones and a more minor one, I can fit it together in a way that works. I can also fit it together in a way that sounds awful, but at the moment I don't think they'll go there despite it being my gut reaction when I heard said spoilers. But no matter how it shakes out, it does sound like I'm getting a different game than they told me I was when they wanted my pre-order. I'm not annoyed about the playtime split, but that I had to learn it through leaks less than two months before the game comes out and it does make me hesitant to believe their marketing in the future.

Spoiler

Fair point. And it also begs the question: Why exactly are they hiding her gameplay this much IF she is playable for half a game?

Another thing... Your level-headed approach is barely present under all unlocked TLOU2 videos (or any unmoderated platform) where people hate it for the reason you described in the first paragraph. And that hate is 80-90% of all conversations regarding the game where bigotry isn't bannable offence. That's why I believe radical measure that Sony takes isn't exactly unjustified.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Spoiler

It can't be false advertising if they didn't promise your exclusively Ellie. Even if Abby is a huge part of the story, it's still can be Ellie story. It really depends on context.

So Abby killing Joel isn't an issue for you? Because I've got an impression from talking with people that it's the main problem - Joel is gone and he's killed by an unknown character that we have to play as. Your only problem is that the game is shared between Ellie and Abby without proper advertising of the idea?

Spoiler

That is not the legal definition of false advertising. Even technically true statements that are deceptive can be an issue.

Legal Definition of FALSE ADVERTISING

I figured Joel dying a long time ago. I didn't want it to happen, but I figured it was going to happen. They didn't bring in Woodward to play a character who was going to die in 5 minutes. Playing as his murderer, if it is for half the game is an issue. If you play her for a smaller section, fine. I'll live. I want to play as Ellie. That is the game they have been promising for years now.

Snow Queen put it well. If they wanted to make this Ellie and Abby's game, they could do that. But tell us that is what it is. Don't have me buy your game and then find out Raiden is in it. I wouldn't buy your game then. Unless it is Re-vengeance. Where they tell you you are playing as Raiden

 

[Snow Queen]

Spoiler

Fair point. And it also begs the question: Why exactly are they hiding her gameplay this much IF she is playable for half a game?

Another thing... Your level-headed approach is barely present under all unlocked TLOU2 videos (or any unmoderated platform) where people hate it for the reason you described in the first paragraph. And that hate is 80-90% of all conversations regarding the game where bigotry isn't bannable offence. That's why I believe radical measure that Sony takes isn't exactly unjustified.

Spoiler

I have no idea. All I know on that front is that you play as her and that a level breakdown from a few years ago listed levels 1-20 as Ellie, 21-40 as Abby. That's the kind of thing that makes me nervous, because it sounds like the split is somewhere in the ball park of half and half. If that turns out to be inaccurate and her portion is more equivalent to a third-ish of the game, I'll be pleased. If it's half and half, then it feels like they said one thing when they wanted my money and another thing for the actual game.

Banning comments on the official videos makes sense. It's become a breeding ground not just for spoilers, but bigoted people. The likes thing feels a bit like scrambling though, more about negative press than substantial issues. What's the answer to these situations? I don't know. I'm not sure any of them do either, which is why you get situations like this.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well, open /thelastofus2 and see for yourself. I'm not inventing anything. In resetera, that would be really interesting if bigotry was allowed and the whole discussion about TLOU2 was drowned in that ****. So those who have different concerns would be barely visible. Open any video under The Last of Us 2 and most liked posts aren't about perceived false advertising.
I don't see any manipulation beyond perhaps clever editing. But it's in the every second movie trailer. So I don't see any issue.

That is a small slice of the internet. That is not everyone. Hell I see people celebrating this because Naughty Dog is apparently the home of ugly crunch.

By the way, I do open up the Gamespot and IGN posting of these videos. There are horrible comments. There are all a lot of post about if people knew what the game really was, they wouldn't buy it.

You know what I'm talking about. Clever editing, not revealing everything or even outright giving false info regarding narrative choices. I'm not seeing endless stream of lawsuits...

That might only be because there is a leak.

No, I'm talking about situations where objective quality can be more or less measured. Better or worse texture, frames per second is precise stuff. Narrative choice isn't.

But no one is talking about that here. It is non sequitur.

Let's not compare incomparable. Star Wars films had fair opportunity. People criticized them after they had a good look at what's in store. Maybe with exception of ROTS, because by that time general reputation was spoiled, so it formed certain expectations.

This doesn't match your own logic so far. Especially as bigots made TFA and TLJ their play ground. It only had effect on one of them apparently though. I'd argue that while there is plenty of bigotry around all these situations, it only ever seems to effect the ones the casual audience doesn't like. Which means the issue isn't the bigotry, it's the content.

That's not the point I'm trying to make. People are free to dislike anything they feel like. For any reason. But right now it's hate campaign. I have no issue whatsoever with 1000 pages of leaks discussions on resetera. Justified or not. Because they aren't spinning anything.
I remember leaked clips being deleted. But there was no need to protect promo materials, like and dislike ratio was perfectly fine. There was no smear campaign.

There was no smear campaign, because people liked what they saw. What you are complaining about is the satisfaction people are feeling from the potential spoilers. Which is a part of it.

Because it's not just people aren't being happy with something. It's all about agenda now. It's just toxic and way beyond legitimate concerns that some people might have.

There is always an agenda. That doesn't change censorship.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

That is not the legal definition of false advertising. Even technically true statements that are deceptive can be an issue.

Legal Definition of FALSE ADVERTISING

I figured Joel dying a long time ago. I didn't want it to happen, but I figured it was going to happen. They didn't bring in Woodward to play a character who was going to die in 5 minutes. Playing as his murderer, if it is for half the game is an issue. If you play her for a smaller section, fine. I'll live. I want to play as Ellie. That is the game they have been promising for years now.

Snow Queen put it well. If they wanted to make this Ellie and Abby's game, they could do that. But tell us that is what it is. Don't have me buy your game and then find out Raiden is in it. I wouldn't buy your game then. Unless it is Re-vengeance. Where they tell you you are playing as Raiden

False advertising is more complex than that. But let's not dive into legal disputes.

I get your point. And I guess it's fair, assuming that speculations about the game are true. Can't say it's a deal breaker for me, because I look forward to the story and experience in general, not specific elements.

Spoiler

Though I can't say I don't enjoy Ellie and would be happy with her as a sole protagonist. She's great and the more she has, the better.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

I have no idea. All I know on that front is that you play as her and that a level breakdown from a few years ago listed levels 1-20 as Ellie, 21-40 as Abby. That's the kind of thing that makes me nervous, because it sounds like the split is somewhere in the ball park of half and half. If that turns out to be inaccurate and her portion is more equivalent to a third-ish of the game, I'll be pleased. If it's half and half, then it feels like they said one thing when they wanted my money and another thing for the actual game.

Banning comments on the official videos makes sense. It's become a breeding ground not just for spoilers, but bigoted people. The likes thing feels a bit like scrambling though, more about negative press than substantial issues. What's the answer to these situations? I don't know. I'm not sure any of them do either, which is why you get situations like this.

Spoiler

What if Abby is complex, interesting and likable, and he part is exciting and layered while being integral to the whole theme of the game and Ellie's part? Will it still be a problem? To me it just looks like people are worried because they don't know her. And sharing so much game time with a beloved character is too much. It probably won't change the fact that promotion was deceiving, but if it's justified narratively...

About the likes and dislikes. Look at the video where Neil Druckmann announced that the game went gold. It was clearly ganged and it makes the announcement and the announcer look like the worst thing ever. Sony certainly underestimated the "movement" so the following videos were locked completely. Though maybe locked comments only provoked more action from those individuals...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

False advertising is more complex than that. But let's not dive into legal disputes.

I get your point. And I guess it's fair, assuming that speculations about the game are true. Can't say it's a deal breaker for me, because I look forward to the story and experience in general, not specific elements.

Spoiler

Though I can't say I don't enjoy Ellie and would be happy with her as a sole protagonist. She's great and the more she has, the better.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to have expressed you are more intrigued since the "potential" spoilers. I have seen others like that as well. And in that case, potential spoilers are enhancing the idea of this game. But I have seen a lot of the other side as well, and I know how I feel about it. There is basically one sticking point for me, because I want what they have been promising for years now. Even if I don't like what the game turns out to be, and it wouldn't be the first time, that's a different thing then that.

I also find video games to be a very different beast from movies or even television series. As you become an active participate and it's usually not for a few hours, and well titles like this aren't cheap.

The recent release of Final Fantasy 7 Remake caused some controversy with some narrative decisions. But to me we got the game that was advertised. They even showed people trailers with these new elements not covered up. If those things were deal breakers for you, you could know about them before buying the game.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Spoiler

What if Abby is complex, interesting and likable, and he part is exciting and layered while being integral to the whole theme of the game and Ellie's part? Will it still be a problem? To me it just looks like people are worried because they don't know her. And sharing so much game time with a beloved character is too much. It probably won't change the fact that promotion was deceiving, but if it's justified narratively...

About the likes and dislikes. Look at the video where Neil Druckmann announced that the game went gold. It was clearly ganged and it makes the announcement and the announcer look like the worst thing ever. Sony certainly underestimated the "movement" so the following videos were locked completely. Though maybe locked comments only provoked more action from those individuals...

Spoiler

For me yes. Even if I like her, I would be annoyed if I went into this game blind. That is the thing. The spoilers are a good thing to me. I would have been utterly pissed if I found this out playing. Like if I were playing God of War, and it switched me to playing Baldur halfway through. He's a fantastic character. I didn't come here to play as him and was never told that would be what the game is.

Druckmann himself said this game was controversial among those at Naughty Dog. Let's not act like this isn't to be expected. But even then, it's a dislike button. Why treat it like it's a hate crime? It's a sign displeasure.

 

[OutOfBoose]

That is a small slice of the internet. That is not everyone. Hell I see people celebrating this because Naughty Dog is apparently the home of ugly crunch.

By the way, I do open up the Gamespot and IGN posting of these videos. There are horrible comments. There are all a lot of post about if people knew what the game really was, they wouldn't buy it.

But "what the game really was" is related to:

Spoiler

"We wanted Ellie and Joel, not "it's a ma'am" golf club". Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems the whole point of the leaks and that's what angers people. But in the end it's even hard to pin point what specific issues people have with the game. The more I talk to people, the more variety of issues is there. It's like all problems converge in one place. From frustration that Sony can't show the console still, to trans characters overtaking perfect cis-gendered world, to Anita Sarkisian, to cruch culture in ND, to PS5 being weaker than Xbox, to beating up Dina and Ellie, to Abby being playable for half a game, to possible muscle size in post-apocalyptic world... The more I touch the subject the more tired I get. I just want the game to come out already so I can see it for myself.

That might only be because there is a leak.

But it's not the first game or movie to do that.

But no one is talking about that here. It is non sequitur.

I was talking about it in context of objective criteria. I know that it's not the subject. It's much harder to pin false advertising on artistic decisions and how they're promoted.

This doesn't match your own logic so far. Especially as bigots made TFA and TLJ their play ground. It only had effect on one of them apparently though. I'd argue that while there is plenty of bigotry around all these situations, it only ever seems to effect the ones the casual audience doesn't like. Which means the issue isn't the bigotry, it's the content.

Bigots steal conversation, but in case of Star Wars it happened after mixed reception when people actually watched the films. Right now there isn't much to discuss regarding TLOU2 outside a few isolated plot turns, admittedly heavy plot turns. I letting bigots take over the promo before letting people have a fair shot at the game? Dunno... Doesn't sound like a good idea.

There was no smear campaign, because people liked what they saw. What you are complaining about is the satisfaction people are feeling from the potential spoilers. Which is a part of it.

That too. So I don't see why you bring Avengers example. Completely different situations. People judge much more ambitious (not in terms of scale, but approach, subversion) and risky narrative decisions based on isolated clips, without having proper look at it. Other people weaponize it as an excuse for their counter-agenda.

There is always an agenda. That doesn't change censorship.

Probably in an ideal world. Are you also so pro-consumer when Disney requests deletion of leaks, clips of their materials?

 

[OutOfBoose]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to have expressed you are more intrigued since the "potential" spoilers. I have seen others like that as well. And in that case, potential spoilers are enhancing the idea of this game. But I have seen a lot of the other side as well, and I know how I feel about it. There is basically one sticking point for me, because I want what they have been promising for years now. Even if I don't like what the game turns out to be, and it wouldn't be the first time, that's a different thing then that.

Yes, I think the game looks more complex now. I was going to get it anyway (it's ND after all), but the leaks made me excited about it. Though it doesn't guarantee that the game will be great. Nobody is infallible and all those ideas can fall flat on it's face. We will see. If people on the opposite side are keeping open mind and willing to give the game a chance in one form or another - that's a good thing in my mind. Even if right now they feel bad about what they saw. My only issue is hateful agitation, bigotry and griefing.

I also find video games to be a very different beast from movies or even television series. As you become an active participate and it's usually not for a few hours, and well titles like this aren't cheap.

You also don't have to throw money at it at first opportunity. You can always wait for trusted reviews or see the game for yourself on some letsplay. Today it's possible.

The recent release of Final Fantasy 7 Remake caused some controversy with some narrative decisions. But to me we got the game that was advertised. They even showed people trailers with these new elements not covered up. If those things were deal breakers for you, you could know about them before buying the game.

The biggest twist wasn't revealed. The game was presented as it was intended. There's much less room for controversy. And like you said, TLOU2 was already controversial even within the studio. The discussion was meant to be, but the game wasn't revealed as it was intended. Everything is backwards. And I hate it. Now instead of naturally experience it, we have to talk about isolated plot points, that don't mean anything, but anger some people and create toxic atmosphere around the game.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

For me yes. Even if I like her, I would be annoyed if I went into this game blind. That is the thing. The spoilers are a good thing to me. I would have been utterly pissed if I found this out playing. Like if I were playing God of War, and it switched me to playing Baldur halfway through. He's a fantastic character. I didn't come here to play as him and was never told that would be what the game is.

Druckmann himself said this game was controversial among those at Naughty Dog. Let's not act like this isn't to be expected. But even then, it's a dislike button. Why treat it like it's a hate crime? It's a sign displeasure.

Nobody is treating it as a hate crime. Just as a negative agitation instrument. People can't get more or less informed opinion about the game at the moment, and the only thing they see is overwhelmingly negative like-dislike ratio. When the game is out everything is fair. Because there will be a chance to see and evaluate the game properly.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Man, I should really stop reading this thread, if I want to avoid spoilers.
No one's posting any actual spoilers, but since everyone in here seems to have read them, they forget how little actually needs to be said, to reveal something.

There are spoilers actually.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Bigots steal conversation, but in case of Star Wars it happened after mixed reception when people actually watched the films. Right now there isn't much to discuss regarding TLOU2 outside a few isolated plot turns, admittedly heavy plot turns. I letting bigots take over the promo before letting people have a fair shot at the game? Dunno... Doesn't sound like a good idea.

I am kind of done with this conversation today, but I wanted to point out this is completely, 100% wrong. Well known social media bigots were breaking down TFA trailer and complaining that the lead was a woman, a Stormtrooper was black and there was no young male white lead on the good guys side. So a year before TFA ever came out it was happening and there was no film to watch.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Okay I lied. One more.

Yes, I think the game looks more complex now. I was going to get it anyway (it's ND after all), but the leaks made me excited about it. Though it doesn't guarantee that the game will be great. Nobody is infallible and all those ideas can fall flat on it's face. We will see. If people on the opposite side are keeping open mind and willing to give the game a chance in one form or another - that's a good thing in my mind. Even if right now they feel bad about what they saw. My only issue is hateful agitation, bigotry and griefing.

No one likes bigtory here. The use of the words agitation and griefing, and pairing them with that word feels like an attempt to make it seem like it is all on the same level. This is like being upset at someone for booing a player at a sporting event, and then putting it on equal footing with the bigots who shout slurs at the same event.

You also don't have to throw money at it at first opportunity. You can always wait for trusted reviews or see the game for yourself on some letsplay. Today it's possible.

But that isn't what they want you to do. They want you to pre-order. They make it available for pre-order it and sell it on their marketing. And if you want certain editions if you don't pre-order it, you can't get them.

It's the point of the concept of pre-orders and marketing. To get people to buy it long before.

The biggest twist wasn't revealed. The game was presented as it was intended. There's much less room for controversy. And like you said, TLOU2 was already controversial even within the studio. The discussion was meant to be, but the game wasn't revealed as it was intended. Everything is backwards. And I hate it. Now instead of naturally experience it, we have to talk about isolated plot points, that don't mean anything, but anger some people and create toxic atmosphere around the game.

The biggest twist was revealed. Was it outright stated? No. But if you were watching the trailers it became pretty clear, pretty quickly what was going on if you played the original game. If you didn't, there was no expectations for it be any different, as you don't know the story. The last couple of trailers for Remake would massively spoilery.

I am happy for spoilers. All spoilers that are true that is. Because no such experience should hinge on something not being spoiled to have impact. I was spoiled about TDK before ever walking into the theater. That' still worked out pretty well. I knew who showed up at Kratos house long before I played God of War. Watched clips from it. Did not effect my love of that game one bit.

If I had found out about my major issue here the day before the game came out, I just wouldn't play it. Now I can at least prepare myself and decide if I still want to. Watched the trailers. They look great. But there is also a reason they are cut they way they are. I am simply hoping some of the early stuff that was talked about is 100% not real. I rather be an overreacting worrier, then the game not be something I want to play.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I am kind of done with this conversation today, but I wanted to point out this is completely, 100% wrong. Well known social media bigots were breaking down TFA trailer and complaining that the lead was a woman, a Stormtrooper was black and there was no young male white lead on the good guys side. So a year before TFA ever came out it was happening and there was no film to watch.

I remember that narrative. But it was shut down by overwhelming good will. Everyone was in the same position and judged the film by official promo materials. So again I can't see it as something comparable to TLOU2 situation.

No one likes bigtory here. The use of the words agitation and griefing, and pairing them with that word feels like an attempt to make it seem like it is all on the same level. This is like being upset at someone for booing a player at a sporting event, and then putting it on equal footing with the bigots who shout slurs at the same event.

If only it was on the same level. Bigotry overshadows real conversation great deal in this case. I see it by unmoderated spaces like youtube comments and reddit.

But that isn't what they want you to do. They want you to pre-order. They make it available for pre-order it and sell it on their marketing. And if you want certain editions if you don't pre-order it, you can't get them.

It's the point of the concept of pre-orders and marketing. To get people to buy it long before.

What they don't want people to do is ganging their promos. If the narrative was how major feature of the game is absent from promos - it's one thing. And I'm sure it wouldn't lead to the dirt we have right now. But it's not. It's all about "Neil went crazy with diversity" and "Anita Sarkisian ruined everything". ND's agenda must be stopped. And other nonsense.

The thing with pre-oders, you present it like people don't have any free will or options. The publisher and the devs won't get your money till the release. Pre-order is basically credit of trust. And everyone puts different meaning into it. Some want a specific game they painted in their minds, other take anything from the studio because they just love their output and so on. Or maybe they simply like what they see in promos. But everyone has an option to cancel it at any moment. Refund is available for everyone.
Special edition is a more complicated case. And this is the only situation where I can agree that the devs could be more transparent about their game, because otherwise it forces fans flipping a coin and buying an expensive set without being fully aware of the game's content.

Spoiler

At the same time, let's imagine Neil said a year ago: we will introduce new playable characters and they will be a major part of Ellie's story. And showed some gameplay as Abby. Rainy night clicker attack, for example. How would that affect people's purchase? Especially people who want an expensive rare set? It suddenly stops being a sequel to Part I (one of the most acclaimed games ever) and it's not Ellie's story anymore? I bet people would still be excited for it.

The biggest twist was revealed. Was it outright stated? No. But if you were watching the trailers it became pretty clear, pretty quickly what was going on if you played the original game. If you didn't, there was no expectations for it be any different, as you don't know the story. The last couple of trailers for Remake would massively spoilery.

No offense, but we're entering double standards territory here.

Spoiler

It's like with the second trailer of Part II. Abby and Lev got a trailer and we can't count they were introduced. It's false advertising. But in case of FF7R we get similar thing, not something stated openly, but people still speculated it might be the case. Which turned out to be true. And it's not an issue whatsoever.

I am happy for spoilers. All spoilers that are true that is. Because no such experience should hinge on something not being spoiled to have impact. I was spoiled about TDK before ever walking into the theater. That' still worked out pretty well. I knew who showed up at Kratos house long before I played God of War. Watched clips from it. Did not effect my love of that game one bit.

Good stuff doesn't hinge on spoilers, I agree. If you're telling the truth, your issue with the game isn't plot twists, but misleading marketing. Which isn't what majority of people are talking about.

If I had found out about my major issue here the day before the game came out, I just wouldn't play it. Now I can at least prepare myself and decide if I still want to. Watched the trailers. They look great. But there is also a reason they are cut they way they are. I am simply hoping some of the early stuff that was talked about is 100% not real. I rather be an overreacting worrier, then the game not be something I want to play.

And people deny there's some knee-jerking going on. Well, I hope you come around. But if you don't, it's fine too. If the game is great, it will speak for itself.