The Last of Us The Last Of Us 2

[henzINNIT]

That’s the problem when you try to fit a subject matter into a game where it doesn’t belong though. That’s what’s noticeable about this game. With the first game nothing about the game, either in story or the design, felt misplace. But here you’ve things like that trans character and Abby being overly buff, neither thing makes a lot of sense in the context of that world. Like I said a few pages back, Abby’s diet and exercise routine would need to be of the highest level to maintain that level of fitness, eating constantly and working out 3 hours a day. It makes no sense. There are bigger issues within that world, like the basic need to survive, that would frankly trump anything else that some characters go through.

Lev fit perfectly in the world.

Spoiler

Being trans wouldn't go away after the apocalypse. Lev's story was a great way to elaborate on the Seraphites, and his struggle with identity in that group made him immediately sympathetic, and he was ultimately the anchor for Abby's redemption.

As for Abby...

Spoiler

With respect to Bobber, I don't think it's a valid argument at all. The game shows that Abby took an interest in weight training early on. When she's not out being a soldier, she lives in a football stadium with full gym, plenty of resources, like enough protein to keep several dogs, presumably with meat from the functioning farm. It's really not a stretch that she could achieve that physique, especially as we know she is particularly driven to become a weapon.

Who dictates where subject matter belongs? Lev's story is every bit as human as Ellie or Joel, or whoever. The Abby thing is even weirder. She's buff. It's a pretty trivial detail in the end.

 

[jmc]

Spoiler

I guess the realities of keeping that physique is a valid argument, but haven't we seen men that are basically as bulky as Abby in the game? Also she hasn't lived in the random wilderness, she's lived in a military-esque compound that seemed pretty well equipped, for at least the last five years.

And as to whether or not bulky women or transgender characters "fit" into the universe, I simply don't understand that argument. It's still the real world, so I don't see why gender identity would just suddenly go out the window?

Because, not to put too fine a point on it, but if the real world were to ever fall victim to a similar ordeal as in the game then frankly issues of identity wouldn't exactly be high on the list of things people would be worrying about. Same deal with who Ellie is interested in. There's no logical reason for a small nit community that requires each other to survive for there to be someone who's got issues about who some girl wants to have a relationship with. This series of games has gone out of it's way to instil authenticity to this world and yet this sequel doesn't exactly ring true to what that reality would be. Some of the ideas in this game are modern day issues set in a world where most of said issues would be trivial at best, especially taking into account over half the population has been wiped out.

 

[Bobber]

Because, not to put too fine a point on it, but if the real world were to ever fall victim to a similar ordeal as in the game then frankly issues of identity wouldn't exactly be high on the list of things people would be worrying about. Same deal with who Ellie is interested in. There's no logical reason for a small nit community that requires each other to survive for there to be someone who's got issues about who some girl wants to have a relationship with. This series of games has gone out of it's way to instil authenticity to this world and yet this sequel doesn't exactly ring true to what that reality would be. Some of the ideas in this game are modern day issues set in a world where most of said issues would be trivial at best, especially taking into account over half the population has been wiped out.

Well, I think it's pretty naive to think that bigotry would simply disappear because the world has changed so radically.
I just feel like we have different views on what "rings true".

 

[OutOfBoose]

Lead concept artist of Naughty Dog about the tone of the sequel:

 

[Drizzle]

Titanic didn’t have a scene where anyone was forced to

Spoiler

murder a dog

.

 

[terry78]

They were aware it was gonna be polarizing, and went in knowing any publicity is good publicity.

 

[Bobber]

Titanic didn’t have a scene where anyone was forced to

Spoiler

murder a dog

.

Videogames force you to murder human beings all the time.

 

[Sundancer]

Videogames force you to murder human beings all the time.

Humans in general are not seen as innocent. There's a rule in movies where you never see an animal or child hurt on screen. Same principle.

 

[Marvolo]

Lev fit perfectly in the world.

Spoiler

Being trans wouldn't go away after the apocalypse. Lev's story was a great way to elaborate on the Seraphites, and his struggle with identity in that group made him immediately sympathetic, and he was ultimately the anchor for Abby's redemption.

As for Abby...

Spoiler

With respect to Bobber, I don't think it's a valid argument at all. The game shows that Abby took an interest in weight training early on. When she's not out being a soldier, she lives in a football stadium with full gym, plenty of resources, like enough protein to keep several dogs, presumably with meat from the functioning farm. It's really not a stretch that she could achieve that physique, especially as we know she is particularly driven to become a weapon.

Who dictates where subject matter belongs? Lev's story is every bit as human as Ellie or Joel, or whoever. The Abby thing is even weirder. She's buff. It's a pretty trivial detail in the end.

Regarding Abby, the reason I cant believe the character's physique is pretty simple. To maintain a physique like that she would have to consume a high protein, high calorie, low fat diet every day. That's 4000 - 6000 calories and at least 150 grams of protein every single day.

It's the post Apocalypse. Mass produced food is gone. Protein supplements are gone. A community has to scavenge and grow their food. Everything needs to be carefully rationed and a single unforeseen emergency could determine whether the group survives or dies. Ask yourself, is it right to let any single person consume the amount of food that Abby consumes? Is it right to devote vital resources to someone so that they can transition to another gender? I say it isnt. Because it isnt necessary for survival, and especially isnt necessary for the survival of the group.

 

[Bobber]

Humans in general are not seen as innocent. There's a rule in movies where you never see an animal or child hurt on screen. Same principle.

Well, no, that rule doesn't exist, because it makes absolutely no sense for that rule to exist.

Is it right to devote vital resources to someone so that they can transition to another gender? I say it isnt. Because it isnt necessary for survival, and especially isnt necessary for the survival of the group.

I don't even know where this came from. What are you talking about?

Spoiler

At no point does Lev ask for vital resources so he can undergo surgery.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Regarding Abby, the reason I cant believe the character's physique is pretty simple. To maintain a physique like that she would have to consume a high protein, high calorie, low fat diet every day. That's 4000 - 6000 calories and at least 150 grams of protein every single day.

It's the post Apocalypse. Mass produced food is gone. Protein supplements are gone. A community has to scavenge and grow their food. Everything needs to be carefully rationed and a single unforeseen emergency could determine whether the group survives or dies. Ask yourself, is it right to let any single person consume the amount of food that Abby consumes? Is it right to devote vital resources to someone so that they can transition to another gender? I say it isnt. Because it isnt necessary for survival, and especially isnt necessary for the survival of the group.

WLF don't need to scavenge for food. They have farms, they have food facilities. They basically have half of Seattle at their disposal. And they hunt, most likely, since nature again took over thanks to greatly reduced human population. Deer and other sources of protein are aplenty. What's even more strange, is that women need to justify every gram of their muscle, when jacked men get a pass by default. Even the first game had muscular dudes who would require your diet to maintain that physique.

Nobody does sex transition in the game and nobody asked for it. What are you talking about?

Titanic didn’t have a scene where anyone was forced to

Spoiler

murder a dog

.

I think that point only proves you can tackle drama without pushing shock value.

 

[Sundancer]

Well, no, that rule doesn't exist, because it makes absolutely no sense for that rule to exist.

It's an unspoken rule. Yes, it exists because people are not comfortable watching animals and children get hurt. Some of the more slapstick-ish comedies can get away with it because the world they take place in is more absurd.

 

[Bobber]

It's not an unspoken rule.
Batman basically murders dogs in The Dark Knight.
Josh Brolin murders a dog in No Country For Old Men.
A man abuses a dog VERY violently in the film Post Tenebras Lux.
And those are just off the top of my head. Two of them in very mainstream films, the third in an arthouse film.

This rule doesn't exist.
And even if it DID exist (which it 120% doesn't), then so what? Rules are meant to be broken. If you don't want to be confronted with something unpleasant, then don't play something like The Last of Us.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Authors frequently decide not to put certain stuff in their works because they understand the audiences. Batman hurts dogs, but it's shown in such a way so it doesn't provoke a viewer to leave a theater. It's almost implied.
Or we see Frank killing a kid in Once Upon a Time in the West. It's shown off-screen. We're horrified by the act, but we don't see a bullet shatter the kid's skull in a detailed and graphic manner.

Graphic violence can be used for artistic purposes, but majority of people most likely will never want to experience something like that. If showcased in a straight manner, there's nothing entertaining about it. Many will argue there's nothing enlightening or profound about it either.

 

[Sundancer]

It's not really a rule. Authors frequently decide not to put certain stuff in their works because they understand the audiences. Batman hurts dogs, but it's shown in such a way so it doesn't provoke a viewer to leave a theater. It's almost implied.
Or we see Frank killing a kid in Once Upon a Time in the West. It's shown off-screen. We're horrified by the act, but we don't see a bullet shatter the kid's skull in a detailed and graphic manner.

Graphic violence like that probably can be used for artistic purposes, but majority of people most likely will never want to experience something like that. If showcased in a straight manner, there's nothing entertaining about it. Many will argue there's nothing enlightening or profound about it either.

We seem to be on the same page.

When I say rule, I mean "rule of thumb." Of course it can vary by context. Editing plays a huge factor.

I don't want to stray form this thread into movie making. My main reason for posting was to say I understand why Drizzle or anyone would be uncomfortable with that aspect of the game.

 

[Bobber]

I can also understand why someone would be uncomfortable with it.
I'm also uncomfortable with shooting someone in the head, having their friend yell out their name. (In the game, I don't mind it in real life).

Anyway, I'm just happy that Naughty Dog actually set out to make a game where violence is unpleasant and uncomfortable, and not just something that happens.

 

[Drizzle]

We seem to be on the same page.

When I say rule, I mean "rule of thumb." Of course it can vary by context. Editing plays a huge factor.

I don't want to stray form this thread into movie making. My main reason for posting was to say I understand why Drizzle or anyone would be uncomfortable with that aspect of the game.

I wasn't necessarily offended by that aspect of the game, I just feel like comparing Titanic to TLOU2 is like apples and oranges. Titanic is a PG-13 drama based on a real life tragedy but as bleak as it gets once the sinking happens, it doesn't go overly graphic because it still has that rating restriction as well as being respectful to the actual victims of the tragedy. The Last of Us II has no such boundaries since it's entirely fictional, but it still goes out of its way to make the player feel horrible, like killing someone (albeit in self-defense) and hearing their friend cry in anguish over seeing them die.

 

[Bobber]

I wasn't necessarily offended by that aspect of the game, I just feel like comparing Titanic to TLOU2 is like apples and oranges. Titanic is a PG-13 drama based on a real life tragedy but as bleak as it gets once the sinking happens, it doesn't go overly graphic because it still has that rating restriction as well as being respectful to the actual victims of the tragedy. The Last of Us II has no such boundaries since it's entirely fictional, but it still goes out of its way to make the player feel horrible, like killing someone (albeit in self-defense) and hearing their friend cry in anguish over seeing them die.

It is a weird/stupid comparison from the ND production designer, I'll agree with that.
And yes, the game goes out of its way to make you feel horrible. I'll also agree with that.

 

[Havok83]

Finally finished this at 31 hours and I have thoughts. I should have been posting along the way as I would have loved to have seen how my views changed over time but oh well.

Spoiler

First off I never read any spoilers and it sucks for ND that any were relesaed. The first thing I did when I beat this was go back and see what leaked and I cant believe it was as detailed as it was. When playing the game, I was like oh so we really gonna MGS2 this? I immediately understood why people were upset. Having Ellie be the villian of this game was definitely a twist I did not see, nor was making me play as the person I had thought would was up till that moment.

ND did subvert other expectations. I always had a feeling that Joel would be killed and that would set Ellie on her path of revenge. Everyone else seemed to be convinced it would have been Dina but we didnt know Dina and Joel always seemed like the most likely choice. With him being revealed to be in the game after dodging him in early trailers, I surmised that he would be a ghost and/or flashbacks. I did not like Dina from the clips we saw and was hoping I was wrong in that she would die and was like ugh, when she showed up as a companion. I also really did not like how messy she was with the love triangle and I felt Ellie's anger when she revealed she was pregnant. I really liked Jessie and thought he was a cool dude and it sucked that he died. I dont think I'd have been upset had it bee Dina in that scene instead. With that said, she was good for Ellie and they had a realistic relationship.

Lets talk about Abby now. I initially thought she was kinda bland when you play as her in Jackson but that turned to pure hate when she killed Joel. I did not like that they made us play as her midway. I was not protective of her and did not find myself caring when she died. I was like good. I really enjoyed Ellie, her supporting cast and that story arc and didnt appreciate how abruptly that was cut for this detour. I thought at first it would be at most an hour as you play through the flashback to flesh her out and key moments that would shed light on the confrontation but this in and of itself was its own major chunk of the game. Honestly it was too long and the pacing here was off. It almost felt like it could have been DLC bc most of what you did had nothing to do with Ellie's story. When Yara died, it felt like that stuff was a waste of time as I didnt get why Abby kept sticking her neck out for these kids. The only take away I got from this was that it showed you why Lev was so important to her but I dont think narratively that needed to be told. The game did do a good job of making me feel empathetic towards her bc ultimately she wasnt a bad person. Yeah she killed Joel but that was justified IMO. Joel killed her father, a bunch of Fireflies, whom were like family and the only beacon of hope for humanity to survive the infection. Not only that but then Ellie murders all her friends. On the flipside Abby shows her mercy repeatedly and she sticks her neck out to save 2 kids, something that Ellie wouldnt have. Abby's biggest mistake is that she had 3 chances to kill Ellie but she didnt. I thought she should have in the final battle when Ellie was on the floor crying. She should have snapped her neck

Ellie made me really dislike her in this game. Usually the people you kill are randoms or clearly bad guys, but Abby's crew was not that. She was vicious and sadistic and blinded by her rage. Abby could have killed her twice (and Tommy and Dina) but she showed them mercy. After the confrontation, they were even and Ellie shoudl have left it alone as she had a happy life. She has PTSD and I guess she felt the best way to deal with it was to kill Abby but it was the wrong decision. When she got to the beach and cut Abby down, I thought that was her redemption moment as she finally showed some real growth but then she told her to fight and threatened to kill Lev. WTF?!? Talk about kicking a person when they are down. Abby had been tortured, weak and malnourished by that point and it wasnt fair especially since Ellie had a knife. This final act ruined her as a character for me. She did let Abby go but Im not convinced she wouldnt try to find her again which is why I said Abby should have killed her for her own piece of mind. When she returns and Dina is gone, its really what she deserved. Dina was over her BS and I bet it must have sucked waiting in that house for someone that may never return

Lets talk about gender. I was confused by Abby's build and thought ND was going to reveal her to be transgender. I was waiting for it but then figured she only got that way bc she was obsessed with being physically able to take on Joel. We did get a transgender character in the form of Lev. Actually when we first met him, I thought that was a girl. I didnt realize he was identifying as a boy until some time into him as a companion. He was called Lily once which confused me as he alluded to a secret but Abby didnt ask. I thought he was called that bc they were teasing him. When it was mentioned that he was intended to be a wife, thats when it finally hit me. I liked that they didnt beat you over the head with it but rather had enough context clues to guess it for yourself. BTW, he was one of my favorite character
Where was Tommy in the resort chapter? I thought Ellie was going to link up with him but he doesnt pop up at all. Also was he blind in one eye? I couldnt tell

As far as gameplay goes, I loved it. Much improved from the first game. People were upset that dogs would be in this game bc you may have to kill them but I was like F all them dogs and made it a point to take them out first bc of the scent trailing. I preferred Ellie's gameplay bc I preferred the bow and arrow over the crossbow, not to mention molotov. I also liked that she had a knife and didnt need to craft shivs
If I were to rate it, Im conflicted with the score. I can see the 10s but the Abby section really dragged the game down to an 8 for me. Completing it I see what ND was going for and I can appreciate it so I think 9 would be fair.
I did think the game was a bit too easy on normal bc there were so many supplies and I never ran out of ammo. When I replay it, Im going to do so on a harder setting and will make sure to limit the resources

 

[Havok83]

I'm trying to figure out why Naughty Dog felt compelled to

Spoiler

make Abby so masculine looking. I kinda read somewhere Naughty Dog is looking to represent the transgender community, but doesn't Ellie represent the LGTBIA? From what I can tell, transgender transitioning doesn't exist in this world because the medical science to transition has been lost. I really wish..though I'm not 100% sure why...Abby was less masculine. Their struggle could then have potentially symbolized the tension between the hetero and "non-hetero" communities. I think it also may have helped getting more people to identify with one or the other--or both, and to be honest, make it seem less of an agenda decision. It can be tricky to promote a lesser group without being preachy

Spoiler

I also thought Abby was trans but her being buff made sense. She was obsessed with making Joel pay for what he did. A petite girl isnt likely going to be able to take on this man that slaughtered a slew of trained soldiers. She needed to be physically fit in order to stand a chance against him

Also you dont need medical intervention to be a transgender person.There are plenty that never transition.

True, they're not the same, but they are often grouped together when discussing diversity, and people's emotions seem to represent that thinking for good or ill. In my experience, complaints and solutions to diverse movie casting go along with this way of thinking,.

bc their struggles overlap in terms of discrimination. Its complicated bc someone who is gay isnt necesarily trans just as someone who is trans, isnt necesarily gay. At the end of the day, these are all labels. There's a trans movement going on now bc traditionally they do not get representation bc people tend to just see them as gay and think thats enough. There really are not that many trans characters in videogames at all but Im sure most of us can now name several gay ones. A trans main character will be a big deal

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

Where was Tommy in the resort chapter? I thought Ellie was going to link up with him but he doesnt pop up at all. Also was he blind in one eye? I couldnt tell

Spoiler

When Abby ambushed Ellie in the theater, she shot Tommy in the head. It's revealed later that it crippled him - he couldn't walk well and lost an eye. He straight up tells Ellie "well, I can't go" in the farm chapter. And is angry at her when she refuses to pursue Abby (though she obviously reconsiders and leaves next day).

 

[Havok83]

Spoiler

When Abby ambushed Ellie in the theater, she shot Tommy in the head. It's revealed later that it crippled him - he couldn't walk well and lost an eye. He straight up tells Ellie "well, I can't go" in the farm chapter. And is angry at her when she refuses to pursue Abby (though she obviously reconsiders and leaves next day).

Thanks I missed that. I just noticed something about one eye was off

 

[Brother Jack]

Spoiler

It's interesting to note that Tommy loses his shooting eye, meaning he couldn't have gone after Abby. He pleads for Ellie to go in a reversal of when he tried to stop her after Joel's death. He has his own little arc wherein he suffers from his own revenge and bitterness.

Also interesting that Ellie's choice to go after Abby in the end is actually what saves her life. Had she not gone to the Rattlers' camp, Abby would have died of starvation strung up on a pike. Ellie's choice to hunt her down and ultimately spare her saves her and Lev.

 

[jmc]

Well, I think it's pretty naive to think that bigotry would simply disappear because the world has changed so radically.
I just feel like we have different views on what "rings true".

I didn't say it would disappear, I'm saying the likelihood of a close net community that has to rely on each other to survive giving a crap about things like that is a lot lower.

 

[jmc]

WLF don't need to scavenge for food. They have farms, they have food facilities. They basically have half of Seattle at their disposal. And they hunt, most likely, since nature again took over thanks to greatly reduced human population. Deer and other sources of protein are aplenty. What's even more strange, is that women need to justify every gram of their muscle, when jacked men get a pass by default. Even the first game had muscular dudes who would require your diet to maintain that physique.

It's not just about eating though, it's about the workout routine as well, and sleep too. For a woman to get to that size, and maintain it, she has to be consistently eating, working out and sleeping 8-10 hours. The thing is the most highly built women body builders in real life don't maintain that type physique under the best of conditions. For a woman to get that build, that's a very specific diet and routine that one has to do, and that's with ideal conditions. If there was some hulking Schwarzenegger dude in the game too the same criticism would be heard, because it's not in keeping with the world created. Abby's frame is an exaggeration in some weird way to present some type of 'alternate' female body type that ultimately makes zero sense. Just because it's not real doesn't mean you can throw away logic in your story.