The Last of Us The Last Of Us 2

[Bobber]

The Last of Us 2 is even better than the first one.

There, I said it.

 

[Iceman]

I wonder if these shows (if top quality) will boost interest in the games that much more. Could be quite a strong multimedia assault. If so I really hope they do live action God of War at some stage.

 

[henzINNIT]

I wonder if these shows (if top quality) will boost interest in the games that much more. Could be quite a strong multimedia assault. If so I really hope they do live action God of War at some stage.

Naughty Dog have that factions mode up their sleeve still. Potential for cross-promotion there.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

The Last of Us 2 is even better than the first one.

There, I said it.

U are correct.

 

[Superhero 101]

Pretty interesting I’d be down

 

[Drizzle]

The Last of Us 2 is even better than the first one.

There, I said it.

In terms of gameplay and overall experience, absolutely. Story is more of a debate but as bleak as the first game is, it’s still a much more pleasant playthrough than TLOU2.

 

[Doctor Jones]

The second is a little bloated, its structure not as strong, but the story itself pacts a wallop. I almost wished they just cut back and forth between Ellie and Abby at a certain point and shortened the story in places, especially with Abby, though I'd have to think of that a bit more. You can still have empathy for Abby even in a shorter span. All the pieces are there.

When it got to the Abby stuff I couldn't believe I was only halfway through the game. I thought the game was almost over when Abby got to the theater. And I really enjoyed the Abby stuff and her as a character, I just think structurally, it makes it bloated.

 

[Snow Queen]

I think the first game is definitely more consistent. While the second features some higher highs for me personally, it's also got far lower lows. For a game that I think puts a lot of care and thought into sections like The Farm, really landing these emotionally heavy hitting scenes... switching to Abby's section is jarring to me as I think the writing gets sloppy. It feels like a lot of narrative shortcuts are taken to try and unsuccessfully (for me, of course, as ever) evoke sympathy that just leave me rolling my eyes, and I was disappointed that her relationship with Lev never really managed to take off. While Lev's an interesting idea, he never really managed to evolve past being a tool for Abby's story in a way Ellie never felt in the original game.

When it hits, it hits fantastic. When it misses, it misses badly. I like the parts I like more than the first game by a bit, but I do struggle to put one over the other when I guess my favourite list would go like 2/3 of Part II - TLOU - the other 1/3 of Part II. It's not perfect, but I really do love those two-thirds. Just a shame it's grafted to something I think is pretty subpar.

 

[Iceman]

In terms of gameplay and overall experience, absolutely. Story is more of a debate but as bleak as the first game is, it’s still a much more pleasant playthrough than TLOU2.

I haven’t played TLOU2 and had imagined that it would be very difficult to replicate the story impact of the first in a sequel (unlike for eg Uncharted and God of War). That said it seems to have taken the gameplay and graphics to another level so I’m really looking forward to it. (waiting for friends to be available and the virus has mucked that up)

 

[henzINNIT]

The second is a little bloated, its structure not as strong, but the story itself pacts a wallop. I almost wished they just cut back and forth between Ellie and Abby at a certain point and shortened the story in places, especially with Abby, though I'd have to think of that a bit more. You can still have empathy for Abby even in a shorter span. All the pieces are there.

When it got to the Abby stuff I couldn't believe I was only halfway through the game. I thought the game was almost over when Abby got to the theater. And I really enjoyed the Abby stuff and her as a character, I just think structurally, it makes it bloated.

After a second play-through I had less issues with the structure but it is a big, unwieldy thing.

I think what I might have done would be a Resident Evil 2 'bonus campaign' format, where Ellie's story is slightly tweaked to be a standalone story, and Abby's is unlocked after, completing the larger story. If nothing else I think it might have gone down a little better.

 

[Iceman]

After a second play-through I had less issues with the structure but it is a big, unwieldy thing.

I think what I might have done would be a Resident Evil 2 'bonus campaign' format, where Ellie's story is slightly tweaked to be a standalone story, and Abbie's is unlocked after, completing the larger story. If nothing else I think it might have gone down a little better.

From what I’ve heard that would make it easy for people upset to compartmentalise the 2 and enjoy the Ellie play through for what it is without letting it be ruined by anything else, and enjoy or not enjoy (or not play) the Abby campaign separately. Good suggestion at least.

 

[henzINNIT]

From what I’ve heard that would make it easy for people upset to compartmentalise the 2 and enjoy the Ellie play through for what it is without letting it be ruined by anything else, and enjoy or not enjoy (or not play) the Abby campaign separately. Good suggestion at least.

Yeah pretty much. Even on a very basic, surface level, I think responses to Abby would have been different if she was presented to them as secret, 'bonus' content, because a lot of gamers reacted very strongly to being 'forced' to play her in TLOU2's campaign. Might have made marketing the game easier too, because Naughty Dog got downright deceptive trying to keep their secrets.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

TLOU2 has a good case to be the best technical achievement on the PS4. It looks and runs great and still never made my PS4 Pro spin up the fans.

I certainly understand those that didn't like the Abby aspects of the game but I didn't really have any big issues with that, other than that it felt like the game dragged in some points due to rehashing the same parts. I think the biggest problem with the story is with Ellie and how the ending clashed completely with the gameplay and what it spoke about the character. The first game didn't have that problem.

 

[Doctor Jones]

But if one of the major themes of the narrative is empathy, that falls apart if you can't play as Abby in the main game. Especially the end of the game. What makes the fight on the beach so powerful is because you have walked in the shoes of both these women and understand their lives. The point is that these two women are more similar than they think and the tragedy is they're on this collision course.

I don't think the problem of playing as Abby is shocking so much as it could have come sooner, preparing you that this is how the game is gonna be. By the time Abby comes in you're almost drained. Plus... it couldn't be that shocking when you already play as her in the beginning of the game. I think it was more of a structural problem than a creative problem.

 

[Jick]

Story is more of a debate but as bleak as the first game is, it’s still a much more pleasant playthrough than TLOU2.

You see, when I think of the first game, the word bleak doesn't come to mind. It was dark and brutal, but I feel like the support characters along the way, the scenarios chosen, the change of seasons, the personal moments, the color pallete used (like in the university section), the landscapes and other details made it feel more hopefull than hopelessness to me.

I get why some might find it bleak, though.
I haven't played Days Gone yet, but that's what I think when I see its trailers and gameplay videos. Bleak.

 

[Drizzle]

You see, when I think of the first game, the word bleak doesn't come to mind. It was dark and brutal, but I feel like the support characters along the way, the scenarios chosen, the change of seasons, the personal moments, the color pallete used (like in the university section), the landscapes and other details made it feel more hopefull than hopelessness to me.

I get why some might find it bleak, though.
I haven't played Days Gone yet, but that's what I think when I see its trailers and gameplay videos. Bleak.

I see your points, but I was thinking in terms of storytelling. Joel's young daughter dies in the first ten minutes of the game and practically everyone who comes in contact with Joel and Ellie throughout the story ends up dead. Not to mention the whole David episode. But the bright spots of hope would turn up in the game when they're most needed, such as the giraffe moment after the aforementioned David and the cannibals section.

 

[Bobber]

After a second play-through I had less issues with the structure but it is a big, unwieldy thing.

I think what I might have done would be a Resident Evil 2 'bonus campaign' format, where Ellie's story is slightly tweaked to be a standalone story, and Abby's is unlocked after, completing the larger story. If nothing else I think it might have gone down a little better.

I mean... this might've made players respond better to her, but it would've absolutely ruined the story the game was trying to tell?

 

[henzINNIT]

I mean... this might've made players respond better to her, but it would've absolutely ruined the story the game was trying to tell?

But if one of the major themes of the narrative is empathy, that falls apart if you can't play as Abby in the main game. Especially the end of the game. What makes the fight on the beach so powerful is because you have walked in the shoes of both these women and understand their lives. The point is that these two women are more similar than they think and the tragedy is they're on this collision course.

How does finishing Ellie's story first and then playing Abby after absolutely ruin the story? We can still learn the exact same things, just in a slightly different order.

The empathy we feel for Abby in her campaign has absolutely no bearing on Ellie, her empathy or her growth. It endears Abby to us, not her. Ellie doesn't know about what we did as Abby, so it has nothing to do with her choice at the end. Bearing that in mind, the Ellie character arc is unchanged whether we play Abby's section or not, and there's an argument to be made that Ellie's story would be easier to follow without a 10 hour diversion in the middle.

Abby's campaign is already 'out of time' in the narrative. We already stop the story to jump back some days to catch up her side of things. My suggestion is just doing it later, and using the medium of video games and a second campaign to do it, rather than displacing the player mid-story. I know I said 'bonus' before but to be clear I was speaking to how it would be perceived by players when they discover it. Abby's campaign would still be substantial and essential to the larger story in this hypothetical world.

[This is all just ideas on a forum though, of course. I loved TLOU2 so I'm not too fussed about changing it.]

 

[Bobber]

How does finishing Ellie's story first and then playing Abby after absolutely ruin the story? We can still learn the exact same things, just in a slightly different order.

The empathy we feel for Abby in her campaign has absolutely no bearing on Ellie, her empathy or her growth. It endears Abby to us, not her. Ellie doesn't know about what we did as Abby, so it has nothing to do with her choice at the end. Bearing that in mind, the Ellie character arc is unchanged whether we play Abby's section or not, and there's an argument to be made that Ellie's story would be easier to follow without a 10 hour diversion in the middle.

Abby's campaign is already 'out of time' in the narrative. We already stop the story to jump back some days to catch up her side of things. My suggestion is just doing it later, and using the medium of video games and a second campaign to do it, rather than displacing the player mid-story.

[This is all just ideas on a forum though, of course. I loved TLOU2 so I'm not too fussed about changing it.]

It doesn't impact Ellie as a character, I agree, but it certainly impacts us.
The way we experience the final part of the story would be greatly altered, had we not learnt about Abby beforehand. Whether one likes it or not, the jarring shift in the middle of the game serves a pretty big purpose in the story the game tells (at least in my opinion).

 

[henzINNIT]

It doesn't impact Ellie as a character, I agree, but it certainly impacts us.
The way we experience the final part of the story would be greatly altered, had we not learnt about Abby beforehand. Whether one likes it or not, the jarring shift in the middle of the game serves a pretty big purpose in the story the game tells (at least in my opinion).

This is true. The beach sequence would be dramatically altered. I think you could make it work, but I may be somewhat biased by not being too fond of the confrontation sequences in general.

To Part 2's credit, for all the complaints about the game being messy, every time I have honed in on an element of the story, I have found it to be there very deliberately. As before, I think it's an unwieldy thing, but clearly meticulously built. I dislike hearing words like "sloppy" when it is abundantly clear that is incorrect.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

The gameplay and level design is so far above the first it’s unbelievable. “The descent” is the best level of any game last year. That’s saying a lot. Doom Eternal came out last year.

 

[psylockolussus]

PlayStation Exclusives Headline BAFTA Games Awards 2021 Nominees

 

[henzINNIT]

The gameplay and level design is so far above the first it’s unbelievable. “The descent” is the best level of any game last year. That’s saying a lot. Doom Eternal came out last year.

There are so many memorable sequences of different varieties in this game. A few standouts for me:

-The semi-open-world Seattle exploration with Dina, with the little stories like the bank robbers and Ellie playing 'Take On Me' in the music shop.

-The subway sequence with some of the most beautiful lighting I've ever seen.

-The Museum Flashback with Joel and Ellie, and the sheer amount of things you can do with that hat.

-The build up to the Scars and Ellie's first encounter with them. I nearly soiled myself when I got hit with a surprise arrow, and so the whistles were genuinely unnerving for a while.

-Abby and Lev crossing the skyscraper bridges.

-Fighting the Rat-King in the hospital.

-Escaping the Seraphite Island as hell breaks loose.

-Ellie going full-Rambo on the Rattlers at the end.

I could see some people tiring of the sneaking and looting but I love the tension and exploring the detailed maps. The big divisive cut scene is the best I've ever seen in a video game.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This is true. The beach sequence would be dramatically altered. I think you could make it work, but I may be somewhat biased by not being too fond of the confrontation sequences in general.

To Part 2's credit, for all the complaints about the game being messy, every time I have honed in on an element of the story, I have found it to be there very deliberately. As before, I think it's an unwieldy thing, but clearly meticulously built. I dislike hearing words like "sloppy" when it is abundantly clear that is incorrect.

I think Abby's story is very messy, and it makes sense. It seems that one of the reasons for the delay is play testers didn't like Abby, so they went about trying to fix that. IMO, it shows. While I do think Abby's overall story beats were there from the beginning, there is a lot trying to build her up into a sympathetic character that plays with the narrative and the "story" that I think come off like hot fixes. You remember Ellie and Joel in the first game? It's just like that! I do not feel like Ellie has this issue outside of two sequences that pertain specifically to Abby. To try and build motivation for Abby, where she honestly doesn't have it. While on the flip side, no such thing is really necessarily with Ellie. The narrative flows naturally with her imo.

On another note of what I saw about, I haven't been keeping up with this conversation, but from what I was reading above, I think you were arguing for removing Abby's story and perhaps adding it later or playing it right after. This actually touches on something I have wanted to discuss, so sorry for jumping in. Correct me if I was wrong about your intentions. IMO Abby's storyline shouldn't be in the game. As DLC? Sure. But the only sequence I feel like we should have played as her is her first scene. I personally feel that beyond her and her friends general bland characterization that puts me off, the game's "deliberate" but "sloppy" attempts to make her likable, make me dislike her more, which hurts the overall narrative momentum and message of the story. The obviousness of how the middle of the game plays like the original game to try and get me to like Abby, is so obvious, it hurts. Beyond what happens with Joel, that drags the game down for me, and in the process hurts Ellie's story (This is Ellie's story after all), which I feel like is pretty note perfect, outside of what I mentioned early.

Ellie hunting a boogieman, so built up, that we never actually see works far better in my head. Especially as while I would still dislike the character, finding her at the end not being the image of what she once was, would work so much better imo. I think Abby kills the momentum of Ellie and thus the game's story, because it spends so much time poorly trying to build sympathy for her, where it is not necessary. Ellie not killing Abby has nothing to do with the player feeling bad for Abby. It's about Ellie holding onto what Joel gave her. If perhaps the game gave you an option at the end, I could theoretically understand it, but it doesn't.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Since we're writing details openly I guess I can be more specific about that I don't think the ending had any chance of working. Ellie has probably killed hundreds of people to get to Abby and lots of the cases are in "intimate" fashion with a knife. There is also torture involved.

All that is done over a longer period of time that contains a break where she returns to about as wonderful of a life as she could ever have in that world, but willingly throws it away for the chance to get to Abby again.

I don't see a person like that suddenly valuing the life of someone that tortured and killed a loved one, especially not when she had a much more logical point to let go in the story. In my particular case it's also just after killing about 20 people with a knife in the best serial killer fashion.

It's clear ludonarrative dissonance to me. If they wanted to make that story it shouldn't have been in a game where you kill tons of people.