The Obama Thread (Merged x6)

[Pluto]

McCains is dead. Obama is one of the best.

 

[Tag279]

I think its pretty clear by the tone of the post (specifically calling it the stupidest idea in modern politics) that I am against it.

Matt, let me get this strait; you have a problem with Obama cutting taxes and you have a problem with him raising taxes?

Eliminate Income Taxes for Seniors Making Less Than $50,000: Eliminate all income taxation of seniors making less than $50,000 per year. This will provide an immediate tax cut averaging $1,400 to 7 million seniors and relieve millions from the burden of filing tax returns.

When it comes to seniors who have to decide on paying for utilities, rent, food, or medicine; aren't the seniors that are making less than 50,000 per year the most adversely affected by having to decide on paying for food or rent vs medications? Medicaid and or Medicare do not kick in until age 65 and most people retire at 60.

And in most cases if an individual has healthcare from their employment when they retire they have to pay their own insurance premiums.

So now the money that you recieve from your retirement or pension is reduced because you have to pay medical insurance out of a fixed income. Med Insurance premiums for persons that are 50 years or older regularly exceed 400-500 dollars per month.

How much do insurance premiums increase when the insured is 50 years old? How much more is the increase for someone that is 55 or 60?

Yes, seniors that make less than 50,000 need a tax break.

 

[kainedamo]

Matt, let me get this strait; you have a problem with Obama cutting taxes and you have a problem with him raising taxes?

That's how the Matt-a-tron rolls.

 

[kainedamo]

It doesn't matter SupermanBeyond. Apparently it is Obama-Hood's job to rob from the rich and give to the poor. Forget the fact that such an action is a huge step towards a socialist state.

Cutting taxes to certain demographics is apparently some sort of radical socialist idea?

No wonder people here find it so hard to take you seriously. Tag has it right. Obama just can't win with you. Perhaps you prefer McCain's tax policies of giving tax breaks to the rich.

 

[StorminNorman]

Well, I'm personally in favor of chiseling Florida off of the United States, floating it into the middle of the Atlantic and turning it into a priso-- er, retirement resort where everyone over 65 can be sent to di-- er, live under their own form of government. I think that would be a good way to solve the whole election crisis we're having. Obama can become President of the United States, and McCain can become President of Florida. Then we can get rid of social security, tax cuts for the elderly, and slow drivers.

Aw.

 

[StorminNorman]

How else do you plan to get the US out of the deep dark hole of debt we are in? The rich who voted for Bush to save their money will now have to pay up for there error.

Because the belief that you deserve your money more than your government does is in itself inheritley evil?

 

[StorminNorman]

Bush went up against a robot and John Kerry - that wasn't so much money winning you an election as much as being better than your opponent.

 

[SuBe]

It doesn't matter SupermanBeyond. Apparently it is Obama-Hood's job to rob from the rich and give to the poor. Forget the fact that such an action is a huge step towards a socialist state. Forget the fact that it will greatly damage our economy in the long run. Forget the fact that the wealthy already pay more than the average citizen into the tax pool. Apparently our government has to punish them for their success by making a higher tax rate exclusively for the wealthy.

Also, I'm suprised to see that no Obama apologists...excuse me...supporters have come and defended his ridiculous new addition to his tax plan.

MATTHEW!!! I think it is time for us to discuss the FairTax, a Tax that rewards Acheivement, instead of punishing it. And DOESN'T Punish you for being and "under" acheiver.

That is incrediably true, It is the Wealth Envy, Gimmie-Gimmie crowd that would rather punish people for being successfull instead of working harder or planning better for themselves.

 

[kainedamo]

Tax breaks for the rich FTW.

 

[SuBe]

Tax breaks for the rich FTW.

Again, you don't understand Economics. What is your definition of "Rich" anyway? Do you realize that those that are considered "Poor" in this country have a higher Living Standard than the AVERAGE person in Europe. The "Poor" Family in America has an average of 2 Color TVs, Cable, a Microwave and 2 Working Vehicles and Cell Phones. Plus, again, they don't pay the Same Percentage in Taxes as the "Rich", if any percentage at all. The "Rich" not only pay a much higher percentage of their income in Taxes, they also employ many more people than the "poor".

 

[Kelly]

McCains is dead. Obama is one of the best.

If Obama's is one of the best and McCains is dead, then why doesn't Obama have at least,.................at least......................a 20 pt lead?


He (Obama) holds a 5% lead in the CNN poll which includes an average of different polls, with 13% unsure. If Obama is one of the best, then why isn't he in a landslide right now?

 

[kainedamo]

If what you say is true, I've been mislead into believing that millions of Americans are on the poverty line, and that millions can't afford health insurance.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Again, you don't understand Economics. What is your definition of "Rich" anyway? Do you realize that those that are considered "Poor" in this country have a higher Living Standard than the AVERAGE person in Europe. The "Poor" Family in America has an average of 2 Color TVs, Cable, a Microwave and 2 Working Vehicles and Cell Phones. Plus, again, they don't pay the Same Percentage in Taxes as the "Rich", if any percentage at all. The "Rich" not only pay a much higher percentage of their income in Taxes, they also employ many more people than the "poor".

That's pretty true, but you also have to admit the rich have a pretty good track record of exploiting the poor and keeping their money though tax breaks by using accountants only they can afford, add to that their ability to influence politicians with "contributions" and the rich aren't exactely as saintly and giving as you're making them out to be.

I'm not saying they only exploit, but I do also get tired of hearing how rich people are just "self-made" men and women that get treated unfairly by jealous people. There's both types.

Also he's living in Ireland the place with the second highest standard of living outside the US, so he's not that far off. And you're using the average US citizen (a single nation) in comparison to a whole continent. If we factored in all of North America you wouldn't have nearly such a high standard of living.

 

[kainedamo]

I've also been led to beleive the US is facing something of an economic crisis and is billions of pounds in deficits and people are losing jobs.

 

[kainedamo]

That's pretty true, but you also have to admit the rich have a pretty good track record of exploiting the poor and keeping their money though tax breaks by using accountants only they can afford, add to that their ability to influence politicians with "contributions" and the rich aren't exactely as saintly and giving as you're making them out to be.

That's exactly right. People like the oil men and the drug companies give contributions to politicians in order to get their way. That is too much power. Money is power, and these guys have so much of it they can sway the opinions of the people that run the country. That's a lot of power in the hands of a small amount of people.

Does that seem fair?

 

[Kelly]

That's pretty true, but you also have to admit the rich have a pretty good track record of exploiting the poor and keeping their money though tax breaks by using accountants only they can afford, add to that their ability to influence politicians with "contributions" and the rich aren't exactely as saintly and giving as you're making them out to be.

I'm not saying they only exploit, but I do also get tired of hearing how rich people are just "self-made" men and women that get treated unfairly by jealous people. There's both types.

Also he's living in Ireland the place with the second highest standard of living outside the US, so he's not that far off. And you're using the average US citizen (a single nation) in comparison to a whole continent. If we factored in all of North America you wouldn't have nearly such a high standard of living.

The ranking for 2007 is

Luxembourg $80,500 GDP Per Capita
Norway 53,000 GDP Per Capita
United States 45,800 GDP Per Capita
Ireland 43,100 GDP Per Capita

North America average including Mexico is about $32,500, without Mexico $42,100.....including or excluding Mexico depends on who you talk to as to North America as a region. Because of NAFTA I include Mexico, most other criteria they do not fall into North America.

 

[moraldeficiency]

The ranking for 2007 is

Luxembourg $80,500 GDP Per Capita
Norway 53,000 GDP Per Capita
United States 45,800 GDP Per Capita
Ireland 43,100 GDP Per Capita

Wow, that's changed from last I heard. Luxembourg way to kick ass.

 

[Varient]

Again, you don't understand Economics. What is your definition of "Rich" anyway? Do you realize that those that are considered "Poor" in this country have a higher Living Standard than the AVERAGE person in Europe. The "Poor" Family in America has an average of 2 Color TVs, Cable, a Microwave and 2 Working Vehicles and Cell Phones. Plus, again, they don't pay the Same Percentage in Taxes as the "Rich", if any percentage at all. The "Rich" not only pay a much higher percentage of their income in Taxes, they also employ many more people than the "poor".

Meh.

I'm below the poverty line - I don't have MOST of that stuff.

 

[SuBe]

That's pretty true, but you also have to admit the rich have a pretty good track record of exploiting the poor and keeping their money though tax breaks by using accountants only they can afford, add to that their ability to influence politicians with "contributions" and the rich aren't exactely as saintly and giving as you're making them out to be.

I'm not saying they only exploit, but I do also get tired of hearing how rich people are just "self-made" men and women that get treated unfairly by jealous people. There's both types.

Also he's living in Ireland the place with the second highest standard of living outside the US, so he's not that far off. And you're using the average US citizen (a single nation) in comparison to a whole continent. If we factored in all of North America you wouldn't have nearly such a high standard of living.

One thing, I'm comparing the United States to the European Union. Only 1% of the "rich" inherit their wealth. The Rest do earn it, either by work or investing. What is wrong with keeping the money you earn? And how are they "exploiting" the "poor"? By having either "work" for them to do, or products for them to purchase (in effect letting them keep their jobs)? But of course you are going to have a few "rich" that are bad, using loopholes and such, but that those loopholes are not illegal. What about the Illegal activites that some "poor" people do, does that make the whole class of people evil? No. Now, ask yourself, why is Ireland having the Second Highest Standard of Living, is it do to the drop in the Corporate Tax Rate in the 90's that it is most commonly attributed to? Probably, thats what all signs point to, and why is the United States' Economy slow, or why are Jobs moving over seas, or why is the Value of the Dollar so low? Is it because we have the Second Highest Corporate Tax Rate in the World?

 

[SuBe]

Meh.

I'm below the poverty line - I don't have MOST of that stuff.

Well, I did say "Poor" Families, not individuals. Do you not own a TV or a Car and Cell Phone? You obviously have a computer and Internet.

 

[Kelly]

Wow, that's changed from last I heard. Luxembourg way to kick ass.

Luxembourg is an economic beast, but you can also jog across it in about 30 minutes......


If you look at what Supermanbeyond is talking about as far as # of cars, phones, cells, internet etc, Ireland ranks 5th....

 

[StorminNorman]

If what you say is true, I've been mislead into believing that millions of Americans are on the poverty line, and that millions can't afford health insurance.

I've also been led to beleive the US is facing something of an economic crisis and is billions of pounds in deficits and people are losing jobs.

Yes - you have been mislead.

 

[kainedamo]

So America isn't billions in deficit?

Well, looks like I've woken up in the House Of M universe. Maybe I have a girlfriend now

 

[moraldeficiency]

One thing, I'm comparing the United States to the European Union. Only 1% of the "rich" inherit their wealth. The Rest do earn it, either by work or investing. What is wrong with keeping the money you earn? And how are they "exploiting" the "poor"? By having either "work" for them to do, or products for them to purchase (in effect letting them keep their jobs)? But of course you are going to have a few "rich" that are bad, using loopholes and such, but that those loopholes are not illegal. What about the Illegal activites that some "poor" people do, does that make the whole class of people evil? No. Now, ask yourself, why is Ireland having the Second Highest Standard of Living, is it do to the drop in the Corporate Tax Rate in the 90's that it is most commonly attributed to? Probably, thats what all signs point to, and why is the United States' Economy slow, or why are Jobs moving over seas, or why is the Value of the Dollar so low? Is it because we have the Second Highest Corporate Tax Rate in the World?

I'd like to see the stats on that inherit thing, the seems off.

You can also become rich through crime, cheating, suing other rich people or companies, profitting from child/immigrant labor, etc. It's not all bootstrap pullers.

Some do exploit the poor, if you can't agree on that this conversation is moot. If you don't find sweatshops offensive then we have too little ground to speak.

I was already called out on the Ireland thing and proven wrong, thanks Kel (and I don't mean that in a scarcastic way, I know it can be hard to tell) but Ireland got that way because of an influx of many factors that took a long long time to happen.

I doubt you can attribute an entire economy to one factor, that's too myopic. There are controllable and uncontrollable factors so complex that if you think it's all due to one thing, then we end our conversation on this point as well.

I'm not calling one class evil, there's asses on both sides. But the rich have a greater swarth to manipulate, hurt, use and control life towards their advantage than the poor could ever imagine. A evil poor person goes to jail, if you're rich you've got a good chance to "legally" buy your way out.

I just get tired of hearing about the poor rich people always getting picked on. That's laughable. Maybe the rich do have to defend themselves more as they float in their olympic sized swimming pools eating caviar and drinking 100 year old scotch, but at least they can pick up the phone, call a team of lawyers, and have them do the work on that.

 

[Kelly]

So America isn't billions in deficit?

Well, looks like I've woken up in the House Of M universe. Maybe I have a girlfriend now

You are talking about 2 different things....

Yes we have a deficit....

Budget:

revenues: $2.568 trillion
expenditures: $2.73 trillion (2007 est.)

Public debt:
60.8% of GDP (2007 est.)


Below poverty line: about 14%