The Obama Thread (Merged x6)

[SuBe]

So America isn't billions in deficit?

Well, looks like I've woken up in the House Of M universe. Maybe I have a girlfriend now

Of Course America has a lot of Debt, but would that Debt be there if the Politicians didn't keep selling the People on new Social Programs and actually paid their debts? The "Universal" Healthcare thing was just another Vote Buying Scheme that would have Cost the American Tax Payer, Trillions of Dollars. The Social Security Program will Bankrupt this County by the 2030's (From the GAO, look it up). We are going to be in a world of hurt if we don't do something about it now, like cut spending, pay the debts and stop increasing the Tax Burden on every American. This country is GOING to be hurting when we can't even pay the Intrest on our Debts in 25 years.

 

[StorminNorman]

So America isn't billions in deficit?

Well, looks like I've woken up in the House Of M universe. Maybe I have a girlfriend now

No bending of reality will give you a girlfriend.

 

[SuBe]

I'd like to see the stats on that inherit thing, the seems off.

You can also become rich through crime, cheating, suing other rich people or companies, profitting from child/immigrant labor, etc. It's not all bootstrap pullers.

Some do exploit the poor, if you can't agree on that this conversation is moot. If you don't find sweatshops offensive then we have too little ground to speak.

I was already called out on the Ireland thing and proven wrong, thanks Kel (and I don't mean that in a scarcastic way, I know it can be hard to tell) but Ireland got that way because of an influx of many factors that took a long long time to happen.

I doubt you can attribute an entire economy to one factor, that's too myopic. There are controllable and uncontrollable factors so complex that if you think it's all due to one thing, then we end our conversation on this point as well.

I'm not calling one class evil, there's asses on both sides. But the rich have a greater swarth to manipulate, hurt, use and control life towards their advantage than the poor could ever imagine. A evil poor person goes to jail, if you're rich you've got a good chance to "legally" buy your way out.

I just get tired of hearing about the poor rich people always getting picked on. That's laughable. Maybe the rich do have to defend themselves more as they float in their olympic sized swimming pools eating caviar and drinking 100 year old scotch, but at least they can pick up the phone, call a team of lawyers, and have them do the work on that.

Did you know that Inherintly Wealth is Considered in Poverty in our Country? Since they don't earn income, they don't pay income taxes and can actually apply for Food Stamps! (Fun Fact).

Yes, the use of Sweat Shops and Child Labor is diplorable, but that is not the common thing. And those are dealt with by the Law, but most "rich" don't earn their wealth that way, most by common means like Investing and hard work in this country. It is a myth that they earn in the easy way, perpetuated by people that earn Votes from those with Wealth Envy. The Rich keep doing things that get them rich, the poor keep doing things that keep them poor, it is not the fault of someone else that they don't apply themselves more.

 

[SuBe]

With regards to the Ireland thing, look up the "Celtic Tiger" or "Irish Miricale" for more information to the Economic Boom in Ireland after reducing Corporate Taxes.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Did you know that Inherintly Wealth is Considered in Poverty in our Country? Since they don't earn income, they don't pay income taxes and can actually apply for Food Stamps! (Fun Fact).

Yes, the use of Sweat Shops and Child Labor is diplorable, but that is not the common thing. And those are dealt with by the Law, but most "rich" don't earn their wealth that way, most by common means like Investing and hard work in this country. It is a myth that they earn in the easy way, perpetuated by people that earn Votes from those with Wealth Envy. The Rich keep doing things that get them rich, the poor keep doing things that keep them poor, it is not the fault of someone else that they don't apply themselves more.

I did, though most of them get some fake job so they can not seem like bums to their friends, and get six figures for their name alone. Also that fun fact is just another way the rich can take advantage.

The Sweat Shops is just one example, though much more common than you might think. If you own a sweat shop in some foriegn country where it's legal you still own a sweat shop. Ever own a pair of Nikes?

I'd like to see some stats on the just how common investing and hard work is in opposition to other ways.

I don't think it's a myth, hell I know people that it's a reality for. The *****e across the street from me drives a F1, has a million dollar house and is being sued in over 100 court cases for fraud, embezzlement and arson. He's got his own team of lawyers and basically they just wait out the lawsuits until the poor people can't afford it anymore and case dismissed. The little **** actually laughed when he explained it to me, I wanted to tear his ****ing head off.

It's not always application that makes you poor or rich, you know that.

Look I could use the example of Hearst here, I've been using him on the hemp board already. The man inherited a ton of money, used it to buy up all the "legit" papers and then used that, along with gov. payoffs, and strikebreakers to dictate the course of the United States for his own personal advantage. That one man by himself started the Spanish American War, outlawed hemp for forest profits and to keep monopolies, had over a thousand people killed by his enforcers and used sweatshops to produce most of his goods. One rich guy did all that, caused so much hurt just to stay rich. Show me a poor person, who stayed poor, that had an effect of a thousandth of a percent that he had.

 

[moraldeficiency]

With regards to the Ireland thing, look up the "Celtic Tiger" or "Irish Miricale" for more information to the Economic Boom in Ireland after reducing Corporate Taxes.

I was born and raised in county kerry, so I have a vague idea of what happened in Ireland. And it's much more complex than you think.

 

[SuBe]

I was born and raised in county kerry, so I have a vague idea of what happened in Ireland. And it's much more complex than you think.

It usually is, but that doesn't mean you can't look it up.

 

[Kelly]

Ireland went through hell when they changed over to the Euro.......many thought it was a mistake.......hmmmmm.....

 

[moraldeficiency]

It usually is, but that doesn't mean you can't look it up.

I'm saying I lived through it. I know much more about it than you probably do. Here's the wiki on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_tiger

The causes of Ireland's growth are the subject of some debate, but credit has been primarily given to state-driven economic development: social partnership between employers, government and unions, increased participation in the labour force of women, decades of investment in domestic higher education; targeting of foreign direct investment; a low corporation tax rate; an English-speaking workforce, and crucial EU membership - which provided transfer payments and export access to the Single Market.



And even all that is overly simplistic, but you'll notice the corportate tax rate is just one of many factors. This is like you critizing Kaime because he doesn't live in the US and can't really know what's going on here, if that's true then there's no chance you understand what happened in the 90's to Ireland's economy.

 

[Kelly]

I'm saying I lived through it. I know much more about it than you probably do. Here's the wiki on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_tiger

The causes of Ireland's growth are the subject of some debate, but credit has been primarily given to state-driven economic development: social partnership between employers, government and unions, increased participation in the labour force of women, decades of investment in domestic higher education; targeting of foreign direct investment; a low corporation tax rate; an English-speaking workforce, and crucial EU membership - which provided transfer payments and export access to the Single Market.

And even all that is overly simplistic, but you'll notice the corportate tax rate is just one of many factors. This is like you critizing Kaime because he doesn't live in the US and can't really know what's going on here, if that's true then there's no chance you understand what happened in the 90's to Ireland's economy.

I would say those are the major players in their economic growth, and continued economic growth. I believe they had a 5.4% growth in 2007, compare that to the US 2.2% growth, and that's pretty damn good.


I give Ireland a hell of alot of credit, because many wrote them off when they first changed to the Euro. And it pisses the UK off which makes me happy as well.....

 

[Mr Sparkle]

why are people so afraid of government programs?
it's weird because they always cry "socialism" but really, so far, I have never seen them rail against police departments or fire departments so really? healthcare?
I mean, you cats realize that you have been brainwashed into thinking that if it comes from the government it MUST BE bad I guess you don;t support your troops, since you know the government is pretty much in charge of them, probably the generals don't do good work because they're not getting paid enough etc.etc.
the mentality that only the poor hurt the economy is ridiculous, one needs to look at the lawsuits some power companies faced after the blackouts in 2003 or 2004 I forget which.
Enron? Wal Mart? who porhibits unions and actually sued a badly injured woman to get back the money they had given her in helathcare.
see, the rich guy can be the bad guy too!
there's no doubt in my mind, not a single doubt that many rich men are good natured and hard working, hell look at the ton of good works that the wife of McDonald's creator Ray Kroc did in his name.
guess what though? as a corporation Mickey d's is still kind of evil.
same goes for Nike, like MD so plainly put it? like your shoes? awesome! too bad they were made by 8 year olds in a country that has little or no worker's right, or just good old fashioned real poverty.
do any of you really think that if there were less corporate taxes Nike would close down it's factories overseasand start producing in america again?

they wouldn't, so it's fantasy to think that they would, they would just think "awesome...less taxes" and keep producing the same product in the same foreign places for an even larger profit margin, trickle down economics don't work, they never did.

 

[Kelly]

I'm not afraid of government programs, I'm afraid of how the government runs those government programs.....*smiles*


Because right now, both Republicans and Democrats are happy little spenders without knowing what they hell they are spending my money on, and Massachusetts not caring what happens in California, Florida not caring what happens in Washington, and Texas wishing it was still independent.........................I kid in that scenario, but our represenatives simply want to be reelected and they could careless how much of my money they have to waste in THEIR state to get that done..........

 

[Matt]

How else do you plan to get the US out of the deep dark hole of debt we are in? The rich who voted for Bush to save their money will now have to pay up for there error.

How about a universal raise of taxes? No one wants to hear it but its the only solution. Or Fairtax. My point is, raising one demographic's taxes is discriminatory and punishing them for success. It will discourage them from creating new jobs, hurt the economy, and is just unfair being as they pay more into the system than anyone as it is.

Matt, let me get this strait; you have a problem with Obama cutting taxes and you have a problem with him raising taxes?

Eliminate Income Taxes for Seniors Making Less Than $50,000: Eliminate all income taxation of seniors making less than $50,000 per year. This will provide an immediate tax cut averaging $1,400 to 7 million seniors and relieve millions from the burden of filing tax returns.

When it comes to seniors who have to decide on paying for utilities, rent, food, or medicine; aren't the seniors that are making less than 50,000 per year the most adversely affected by having to decide on paying for food or rent vs medications? Medicaid and or Medicare do not kick in until age 65 and most people retire at 60.

And in most cases if an individual has healthcare from their employment when they retire they have to pay their own insurance premiums.

So now the money that you recieve from your retirement or pension is reduced because you have to pay medical insurance out of a fixed income. Med Insurance premiums for persons that are 50 years or older regularly exceed 400-500 dollars per month.

How much do insurance premiums increase when the insured is 50 years old? How much more is the increase for someone that is 55 or 60?

Yes, seniors that make less than 50,000 need a tax break.

No, they don't. No more than anyone else. To simply say that they should be exempt from taxes is incredibly stupi, what makes them special when basically everyone else is losing their homes and struggling to get by? We need a real solution for everyone, not just for some.

And I've never criticized Obama for raising taxes. Only singling out a certain group for a tax raise.

Cutting taxes to certain demographics is apparently some sort of radical socialist idea?

The idea of taxing the wealthy demographic more so you can give it to the poor is by definition socialism, so yes.

No wonder people here find it so hard to take you seriously. Tag has it right. Obama just can't win with you. Perhaps you prefer McCain's tax policies of giving tax breaks to the rich.

Oh, please. People don't take me seriously? At least I have an elementary grasp on the government I am discussing. At least I know what socialism is.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

I'm not afraid of government programs, I'm afraid of how the government runs those government programs.....*smiles*

hahaha, now you're just trying to be make it sound clever.
yes, wow,governments screw up, big reveal, however, the only reason WHY we all gather together en masse is BECAUSE we have to rely on each other, and while you haven't said it, the "personal responsibility" jive being pushed around here is an extreme of the real personal responsibility.
we have to look out for the weaker element, we have to care for them or else they become more trouble than the programs we fear.

 

[Kelly]

Cutting taxes to certain demographics is apparently some sort of radical socialist idea?

No wonder people here find it so hard to take you seriously. Tag has it right. Obama just can't win with you. Perhaps you prefer McCain's tax policies of giving tax breaks to the rich.

How about we keep it to the topic, and stay off the personal stuff?


All that kind of post does is make YOUR argument weaker.

And, I know that I can speak for the majority that post here daily, that we don't want that kind of crap from posters, or mods, or admin..........

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Oh, please. People don't take me seriously? At least I have an elementary grasp on the government I am discussing. At least I know what socialism is.

hate to break it to you, but you don't seem to really know what socialism is.

 

[Matt]

why are people so afraid of government programs?
it's weird because they always cry "socialism" but really, so far, I have never seen them rail against police departments or fire departments so really? healthcare?
I mean, you cats realize that you have been brainwashed into thinking that if it comes from the government it MUST BE bad I guess you don;t support your troops, since you know the government is pretty much in charge of them, probably the generals don't do good work because they're not getting paid enough etc.etc.
the mentality that only the poor hurt the economy is ridiculous, one needs to look at the lawsuits some power companies faced after the blackouts in 2003 or 2004 I forget which.
Enron? Wal Mart? who porhibits unions and actually sued a badly injured woman to get back the money they had given her in helathcare.
see, the rich guy can be the bad guy too!
there's no doubt in my mind, not a single doubt that many rich men are good natured and hard working, hell look at the ton of good works that the wife of McDonald's creator Ray Kroc did in his name.
guess what though? as a corporation Mickey d's is still kind of evil.
same goes for Nike, like MD so plainly put it? like your shoes? awesome! too bad they were made by 8 year olds in a country that has little or no worker's right, or just good old fashioned real poverty.
do any of you really think that if there were less corporate taxes Nike would close down it's factories overseasand start producing in america again?

they wouldn't, so it's fantasy to think that they would, they would just think "awesome...less taxes" and keep producing the same product in the same foreign places for an even larger profit margin, trickle down economics don't work, they never did.

Because if you give the government too much power they become corrupt like China or Mexico or Russia.

Look at Bush. We gave him too much power after 9/11. We altered the social contract, he got more power, we got more security (or at least the illusion of it)...and he in turn used the power to enter us into an unjust war under false pretenses.

Some government programs are necessary. Some are corrupt. That is why ALL must be held under extreme scrutiny.

 

[Raiden]

It looks like Lieberman is probably on McCain's short list for VP, and I won't be surprised if he leaves the Dems after this election even if he doesn't join McCain for WH run.

Pulling a Zell: It was two years ago this month that Joe Lieberman lost his Dem primary, and now he's on McCain's short list for VP. By the way, is Lieberman trying to force Democrats to expel him from their caucus if they pick up Senate seats in November? Yesterday, campaigning for McCain in Pennsylvania, the Connecticut senator suggested that Obama doesn’t put his country first. "In my opinion, the choice could not be more clear: between one candidate, John McCain, who's had experience, been tested in war and tried in peace, another candidate who has not,'' Lieberman said. "Between one candidate, John McCain, who has always put the country first, worked across party lines to get things done, and one candidate who has not." Lieberman, who will campaign again with McCain today, has definitely upped his rhetoric, which is why his name continues to stay on the short list. And Lieberman himself doesn't seem to do a lot to discourage the talk. In fact, longtime Lieberman watchers will probably wonder why the one-time Dem VP nominee wasn't this good of an attack dog when he was Al Gore's running mate. Obama may have some Republicans in his camp, but they aren't doing attack-dog politics like Lieberman's doing for McCain.

 

[SuBe]

I'm not afraid of government programs, I'm afraid of how the government runs those government programs.....*smiles*


Because right now, both Republicans and Democrats are happy little spenders without knowing what they hell they are spending my money on, and Massachusetts not caring what happens in California, Florida not caring what happens in Washington, and Texas wishing it was still independent.........................I kid in that scenario, but our represenatives simply want to be reelected and they could careless how much of my money they have to waste in THEIR state to get that done..........

Exactly.

 

[Matt]

hate to break it to you, but you don't seem to really know what socialism is.

Socialism is distributing ownership of busiess and industry (and with that the profits). Being as our wealthy citizens contrl most of the capital, to divide up their profits (by taxing them more than others) and giving it to the poor, IS a form of socialism.

 

[SuBe]

Socialism is distributing ownership of busiess and industry (and with that the profits). Being as our wealthy citizens contrl most of the capital, to divide up their profits (by taxing them more than others) and giving it to the poor, IS a form of socialism.

Closer inline to Fascism or a Fascistic Socialism. "Re-distrubution of Wealth", "Evening the Playing Field", "Paying their Fair Share", "Giving Back": it's a a ploy to make people want to punish those that work hard and make Right decisions.

I believe in what Ben Franklin Said: "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it."

 

[Matt]

It looks like Lieberman is probably on McCain's short list for VP, and I won't be surprised if he leaves the Dems after this election even if he doesn't join McCain for WH run.

Yeah, Lieberman is gone eitherway. Either he joins McCain's ticket and becomes an unofficial Republican now...or he gets kicked out of the caucus, due to spite after they pick up enough seats in November.

 

[Kelly]

Ben had it right....

 

[Matt]

Closer inline to Fascism or a Fascistic Socialism. "Re-distrubution of Wealth", "Evening the Playing Field", "Paying their Fair Share", "Giving Back": it's a a ploy to make people want to punish those that work hard and make Right decisions.

I believe in what Ben Franklin Said: "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it."

Great quote.

And y'know, I'm starting to become a big fan of FairTax. I've yet to read the books, but I have done my homework...and it is well...fair. You are taxed for what you spend. It makes sense.

 

[SuBe]

Great quote.

And y'know, I'm starting to become a big fan of FairTax. I've yet to read the books, but I have done my homework...and it is well...fair. You are taxed for what you spend. It makes sense.

Ask any question you like in the FairTax Thread, I'll be glad to answer them. Or, PM me.