The Official Batman Forever Thread - Part 2

[circa81]

Honestly, with all it's flaws, Forever feels more like a Batman movie then Nolan's films. Put away the straitjacket, please

 

[CConn]

To me, BF has always been a near perfect film adaptation of the campy and over the top interpretation of Batman from the late 60s or early 70. Unlike B&R that went WAY too far with the concept, BF had a great mixture of Batman's somber core, and his villains' inherent outrageousness.

The one big flaw I legitimately think it does have, is Schumacher's damn garish art direction. It's one thight to be campy, it's another to have the screen so filled with red or purple that your eyes start to go blurry.

 

[circa81]

To me, there's a difference between garish and campy. In Forever, Gotham looks like Vegas on steroids, and Vegas is renown for it's corruption and depravity.

 

[CConn]

Either way, there were some scenes in BF that overloaded the senses a bit too much.

 

[nogap87]

I'm a Batman Forever fan. The only thing I didn't like about it was that Robin was too old. As for its version of Gotham City, its my second favorite after BTAS.

 

[CConn]

I don't think a younger Robi would've worked though.

In all honestly, I think Chris O'Donnell was a great Robin. If there was one thing I'd change, I would've just preferred they used his Nightwing-esque costume from B&R in BF.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

I liked the Robin outfit in BF, but I would have preffered it if they had given him the Nightwing type mask, instead of the flat rectangular one we got.
I did like the Nightwing-esque costume in B&R as well, seeing a modern live action version of the classic design was great.

 

[ALP]

I quite liked the production design in BF. It was garish but I liked it. The neon and strobe lights flashing everywhere, reminded me of a place like Japan at night.

In B&R, the novelty wore off and it was just sickening.

 

[babbage]

To me there's nothing redeeming about Batman Forever except for the fact that it's not completely unwatchable, like Batman & Robin is. Forever = dumb. B&R = torture porn.

 

[babbage]

I have been saying that there were other ways of dealing with that situation.
Swoop into the place gurellia style, like he does in the books, alert the cops as well, get them to surround the place so's nothing gets out, and after you have taken out the factory, get the cops to prevent the Joker from even going anywhere near the parade.

I would have really liked something that. Much more in the Batman I prefer's style. I like Batman 89 pretty okay, but I think it's apparent that the film was the result of a very claustrophobic production, with action set pieces that weren't that deeply thought out in any storytelling sense.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Early Batman did not cooperate with police, he was outside the law and chased as well - as in the movie. Even in modern continuity he was still a chased outlaw in his first year

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Early Batman did not cooperate with police, he was outside the law and chased as well - as in the movie. Even in modern continuity he was still a chased outlaw in his first year

Early Batman also did not have a butler, the Burton film was not beholden to those early books, they used elements from a lot of eras, as well as playing by their own rules with the character.
All I meant was a similar scene to the one we got in Batman Begins, when he goes in guerilla style to the docks, but alerts the police as well so they can all be arrested of course.

 

[El Payaso]

Early Batman also did not have a butler, the Burton film was not beholden to those early books, they used elements from a lot of eras, as well as playing by their own rules with the character.

But that is so wrong!!!!

Not like every Batman director has not done the exact same thing though.

All I meant was a similar scene to the one we got in Batman Begins, when he goes in guerilla style to the docks, but alerts the police as well so they can all be arrested of course.

Well I rather have a scene where I can see Batman. Then again with Gotham police, arresting them and setting them free is the same thing.

 

[ALP]

The action scenes in B'89 were mediocre. Clearly because of the restricted suit. But at the same time it allowed for some cool scenes like when Batman simply kicks the sword guy in the face. Or in the Axis chemical scene where he punches the guy in the face as he comes at him. Cool and effective, but other scenes were more constricted with the action.

I actually liked the action in BF. It was a bit silly and over the top but I thought Batman doing flips was cool. But even in BF there were a few scenes where the suit was clearly restricting. I remember Kilmer saying he could barely turn his head and couldn't hear a thing.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

We have been told to take this offtopic discussion into another thread, the other reason i continued it is because other folk are quoting me and debating, so I'll take this into the BM89 thread.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

keeping this one in this thread as it is a bf/bm89 comparison...

The action scenes in B'89 were mediocre. Clearly because of the restricted suit. But at the same time it allowed for some cool scenes like when Batman simply kicks the sword guy in the face. Or in the Axis chemical scene where he punches the guy in the face as he comes at him. Cool and effective, but other scenes were more constricted with the action.

BM89 wise, some of the action was very enjoyable because it was unique to what you usually got in the movies at that time. When they were using the Batman type tricks from the comics, in a simple but effective manner, it was very satisfying.

- The reconstruction of his 1st appearance in the books on the rooftop was very good.
- when he confronts Nicolson at Axis for the first time and does the disapearing act.
-when he leaves the crook dangling by the rope and Gordon gets a look at Batman for the first time.
- the grappling hook feature on the Batmobile was pretty nifty, but aye, the most effective hand to hand combat scene was with the guy with the swords, the images of BM deflecting the swords and thr sparks flying looked much better than the usual strained punches and kicks you get in the Batman movies(that for the most part don't look like they have much power behind them).
-the drive back to the batcave was the best scene in the film imo, that was pure classic Batman.

I actually liked the action in BF. It was a bit silly and over the top but I thought Batman doing flips was cool. But even in BF there were a few scenes where the suit was clearly restricting. I remember Kilmer saying he could barely turn his head and couldn't hear a thing.

Aye, again, the best action scenes in the film are not the restrictive martial arts scenes.
I said this earlier, but BF benefits from John Dystryka coming onboard and his CG innovations in the movie, although, most of the stunts are still done with Kilmer or real life stuntmen.
- The whole opening sequence is a doozy, I especially love the moment when Batman's cape suddenly drapes over the front of the helicopter window, just when they think they have gotten rid of him. Classic Batman.

- Daft as it is, the Batmobile sequence is not bad.
- Dick Grayson fighting the gang is superb, as is the moment when Batman is just hanging back on the rooftop, like the supernatural entity that knows just when and where to be in times of trouble, waiting for the moment when they spot him and his rep does the rest, the gang running away at the sight of him, giving him his cue to swoop down.
Now the way that was shot, proved that Schumacher did know Batman, and how to shoot a great Batman moment onscreen, using Batman's mere presence as the deterant, he only swoops into the mellee *after* the crooks have already begun to disperse.
and fug it, day-glo bashers be damned, it looked great in that scene, the gang popping out of the screen just like the gangs in Miller's DKR with their tribal make-up.

- the martial arts at the Ngymatech ball at least have the feeling of having some power behind the hits, but it is all too obviously not Kilmer in the suit unfortunately, but, y'know, that is a similar gripe with any number of action movies.
but, again, the best action comes when the constricted rubber suit martial arts stop...when Batman is trapped in the gas chamber, and Robin makes his first appearance saving him from death(just like the scene in the book when BM first meets Tim Drake)
- and the finale with Batman saving both Chase and Robin is another doozy, superb last second rescue comicbook thrills.

 

[babbage]

Edit- Oops, I'll take it to the other thread

 

[TruerToTheCore]

k

BM89 wise, some of the action was very enjoyable because it was unique to what you usually got in the movies at that time. When they were using the Batman type tricks from the comics, in a simple but effective manner, it was very satisfying.

It was clumsy.

- The reconstruction of his 1st appearance in the books on the rooftop was very good.

Of course. Batman should be shot every time he appears.

- when he confronts Nicolson at Axis for the first time and does the disapearing act.

Of course. A smoke bomb that hides actually... nothing.

-when he leaves the crook dangling by the rope and Gordon gets a look at Batman for the first time.

Not a bad moment.

- the grappling hook feature on the Batmobile was pretty nifty, but aye, the most effective hand to hand combat scene was with the guy with the swords, the images of BM deflecting the swords and thr sparks flying looked much better than the usual strained punches and kicks you get in the Batman movies(that for the most part don't look like they have much power behind them).

No. They all suck, done by a character that understands nothing when it comes to real action.

-the drive back to the batcave was the best scene in the film imo, that was pure classic Batman.

Yes, but it's mostly the music. And of course, it doesn't make sense. Why does Batman that long to deliver his revelatiions about Gotham's shopping nightmare?

Aye, again, the best action scenes in the film are not the restrictive martial arts scenes.

Very clumsy martial arts scenes. Done by a guy who doesn't get Batman at all.

I said this earlier, but BF benefits from John Dystryka coming onboard and his CG innovations in the movie, although, most of the stunts are still done with Kilmer or real life stuntmen.
- The whole opening sequence is a doozy, I especially love the moment when Batman's cape suddenly drapes over the front of the helicopter window, just when they think they have gotten rid of him. Classic Batman.

The whole beginning of Batman Forever shows the real Batman.

- Daft as it is, the Batmobile sequence is not bad.
- Dick Grayson fighting the gang is superb, as is the moment when Batman is just hanging back on the rooftop, like the supernatural entity that knows just when and where to be in times of trouble, waiting for the moment when they spot him and his rep does the rest, the gang running away at the sight of him, giving him his cue to swoop down.
Now the way that was shot, proved that Schumacher did know Batman, and how to shoot a great Batman moment onscreen, using Batman's mere presence as the deterant, he only swoops into the mellee *after* the crooks have already begun to disperse.
and fug it, day-glo bashers be damned, it looked great in that scene, the gang popping out of the screen just like the gangs in Miller's DKR with their tribal make-up.

Yeah.

[/QUOTE]

 

[El Payaso]

Take it to the right thread.

 

[Spoonman]

- Daft as it is, the Batmobile sequence is not bad.
- Dick Grayson fighting the gang is superb, as is the moment when Batman is just hanging back on the rooftop, like the supernatural entity that knows just when and where to be in times of trouble, waiting for the moment when they spot him and his rep does the rest, the gang running away at the sight of him, giving him his cue to swoop down.
Now the way that was shot, proved that Schumacher did know Batman, and how to shoot a great Batman moment onscreen, using Batman's mere presence as the deterant, he only swoops into the mellee *after* the crooks have already begun to disperse.
and fug it, day-glo bashers be damned, it looked great in that scene, the gang popping out of the screen just like the gangs in Miller's DKR with their tribal make-up.

- the martial arts at the Ngymatech ball at least have the feeling of having some power behind the hits, but it is all too obviously not Kilmer in the suit unfortunately, but, y'know, that is a similar gripe with any number of action movies.
but, again, the best action comes when the constricted rubber suit martial arts stop...when Batman is trapped in the gas chamber, and Robin makes his first appearance saving him from death(just like the scene in the book when BM first meets Tim Drake)
- and the finale with Batman saving both Chase and Robin is another doozy, superb last second rescue comicbook thrills.

Loved this portion of your post, that's exactly how I feel about those scenes and part of why I enjoy Batman Forever so much.

 

[Invisiboy]

Personally, just looking at the story and characters (you know, the part that actually matters), I think BF is an enjoyable movie, if flawed. Kilmer and O'Donnell are solid in their respective roles, Carrey and Jones are both fun-to-watch characters, even if not actual intimidating or threatening villians, and there are a few genuinely dark and serious moments that really help to develop the characters (the vengeance talk between Bruce and Dick). My gripes would be the weird behavior of Kidman's character (one scene she's a serious professional, the next she's ****ting herself up for Batman and Nygma? I know it's a comic book movie, but some consistent characterization would be nice), as well as the villian's motives not making much sense (Two-Face wants Batman, Nygma wants Bruce Wayne....so why do they team up before they realize they're after the same guy?). Overall, it's not the perfect Batman (that doesn't exist) but I would definitely call it an enjoyable watch.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

as well as the villian's motives not making much sense (Two-Face wants Batman, Nygma wants Bruce Wayne....so why do they team up before they realize they're after the same guy?).

Nygma is on the beginnings of his super-villan trip when he spots Two-Face doing his thing on tv at the circus.
Y'know, at that point Nygma is trying to think of a way to compete with and ultimately trump Bruce Wayne.(and has already posted him his first riddle iirc)
He sees Two-Face, loves his act(I really like that scene where he is laughing at the tv), and realises that this could be a good way to make some money, as in order to compete with Wayne, he needs to be rich and get his business off the ground.
He also knows that he has the kind of tech to entice T-F into a partnership, as he will soon be reading the minds of Gotham City if he gets his project off the ground, and will be in an ideal position to find out who Batman is.

 

[El Payaso]

Nygma is on the beginnings of his super-villan trip when he spots Two-Face doing his thing on tv at the circus.
Y'know, at that point Nygma is trying to think of a way to compete with and ultimately trump Bruce Wayne.
He sees Two-Face, loves his act(I really like that scene where he is laughing at the tv), and realises that this could be a good way to make some money, as in order to compete with Wayne, he needs to be rich.
He also knows that he has the kind of tech to entice T-F into a partnership, as he will soon be reading the minds of Gotham City if he gets his project off the ground, and will be in an ideal position to find out who Batman is.
So, they end up in a mutually beneficial partnership, and as the way of most comic books coincidences go, Riddler is after Bruce, T-F after Batman, lo and behold, they are the same person.

That is true. Riddler went to Two-Face to get some funding.

 

[raybia]

I don't know. Maybe I've changed. I was so starved for a Batman movie than anything at that time that had Batman on it would have put a smile on my face. Nolan's movies have giving me great satisfaction but its unfair to hold BF by today's standards.

BF served its purpose and it served as a necessary building block to get the franchise where its at today. Regardless of what it wasn't or what it could have been, its was entertaining and had its moments.

 

[OutRiddled]

One of the problems I now have with BF is the riddles don't serve much purpose. Classic Riddler would leave the police/Batman riddles as clues to his next crime. This Riddler was more of a stalker sending "love letters" to Bruce Wayne, teasing him with his identity. Not sure if I liked that angle.