The Official Batman Forever Thread - Part 2

[Spoonman]

I assume B&F = B&R.

B&R was simply the same structure and tone, but without the goodies BF had (Jim Carrey, Batman's troubled mind). And add to that Batgirl.

BF was better than that. Now we're talking about the absolute worst superhero movie, so I'm not sure if that's much of an achievement.

But even Forever can't touch what Burton did. The Riddler and that cackling Two-Face travesty we got can't touch Nicholson's Joker, the magnificent Catwoman or the improvement over the original character DeVito's Penguin was. There you have evil and tortured sould, not just egomaniac cackling humages of the 1966 TV series.

I agree with all of this except the bolded. I think B&R was even campier than BF. B&R wasn't only lacking the good things of BF, it also amplified the mistakes of the latter, so the tone wasn't the exact same, at least in my eyes.

 

[El Payaso]

I agree with all of this except the bolded. I think B&R was even campier than BF. B&R wasn't only lacking the good things of BF, it also amplified the mistakes of the latter, so the tone wasn't the exact same, at least in my eyes.

I rephrase. The tone pretended to be the same. It also had Bruce facing his past - this time with Alfred - and the campy villiains. But the execution went so wrong that the resulting tone was even campier.

 

[Spoonman]

^ Yeah I undestand better now, definetely agree with your points, and about the Penguin thing I must confess I always prefered Burton's too, in the sense than when the name Penguin was mention it was DeVito's image that came to my mind, I must confess I've never been a big comic book reader so that may be factoring in such perception, I guess.

 

[christpunchers]

As cheesy as Tommy Lee's Two Face was, I thought the actor had the chops to play the real Dent/Two Face, at least in much greater capacity than Eckhart, who is as a wooden as a door nail.

The problem with Nolan's Two Face is that he's either happy, worried, or angry. There's no subtlties. He's just an actor, just there to deliever his lines and have Nolan tell him "go, be angry!".

When he was Dent, to me, he was just yet ANOTHER dude in a nice looking suit. I wasn't given anything to think that this guy was all that special. When he turned into Two-Face, he was just angry, ready to kill at a moment's notice. More could have been done with his character, at least when it comes to why he believes in luck and the random toss, or becoming at least torn with the idea that he should take revenge, to kill or not to kill.

So looking back, BF's Two Face was too cheesy but it's not like Nolan got the right tone either. I believe in a future reboot after Nolan, we ought to get Two-Face the way he appears in the comic, a rogue who's out for justice without becoming another Batman, yet can be embraced by the public but still devious enough to get the job done, no matter what.

 

[The Joker]

As cheesy as Tommy Lee's Two Face was, I thought the actor had the chops to play the real Dent/Two Face, at least in much greater capacity than Eckhart, who is as a wooden as a door nail.

Door nails are not wooden

Jones is a great actor and maybe with a better script he could have done Dent justice, but Eckhart knocked it out of the park. In many ways he gave the most real performance of the movie. It's a shame he's often over shadowed by Heath.

The problem with Nolan's Two Face is that he's either happy, worried, or angry. There's no subtlties. He's just an actor, just there to deliever his lines and have Nolan tell him "go, be angry!".

What "subtleties"? How many range of emotions did you want to see from the character beyond happy, worried, or angry? Not that they were the only emotions he showed. You can throw in grief, too.

When he was Dent, to me, he was just yet ANOTHER dude in a nice looking suit. I wasn't given anything to think that this guy was all that special.

Right, so his zeal to bring Gotham back from the criminals, his passionate belief in Batman, his unpredictable nature in instances like abducting and terrorizing a Joker accomplice or turning himself in as Batman etc only showed you a regular guy in a nice looking suit?

I'm really anxious to hear what your vision of Harvey Dent is.

When he turned into Two-Face, he was just angry, ready to kill at a moment's notice. More could have been done with his character, at least when it comes to why he believes in luck and the random toss, or becoming at least torn with the idea that he should take revenge, to kill or not to kill.

All of that was addressed. He initially believed he could make his own luck hence why his coin was a two headed coin. The fact the coin got scarred by the explosion that killed Rachel was damning proof that he cannot make his own luck and it is based on chance. 50/50. Same odds he and Rachel had.

So looking back, BF's Two Face was too cheesy but it's not like Nolan got the right tone either. I believe in a future reboot after Nolan, we ought to get Two-Face the way he appears in the comic, a rogue who's out for justice without becoming another Batman, yet can be embraced by the public but still devious enough to get the job done, no matter what.

Dent was never out to become another Batman in TDK. In fact in case you missed the obvious, the whole point was that he was seen as the total opposite of Batman. A hero with a face who doesn't hide behind a mask. The symbol of hope Gotham can never be.

Who ever decides to take a stab at Dent in the reboot has some big shoes to fill.

 

[christpunchers]

Door nails are not wooden

Jones is a great actor and maybe with a better script he could have done Dent justice, but Eckhart knocked it out of the park. In many ways he gave the most real performance of the movie. It's a shame he's often over shadowed by Heath.

How did he knock it out of the park? To me, he's got this wide eye hollow look on his face. Granted, he's got a good jawline and all, he looks like Dent if we only had a photo, but there's not a hint of darkness to him. Again, I've mentioned this in the past, but the guy looked like he walked from the set of "Thank You For Smoking" and over to TDK's set. The only difference is that he's reading off two different scripts. He never transformed into Harvey.

What "subtleties"? How many range of emotions did you want to see from the character beyond happy, worried, or angry? Not that they were the only emotions he showed. You can throw in grief, too.

Yeah, but all it felt mechanical. I believe someone else with more range would have done a better job than Eckhart (a gritty Jon Hamm maybe?). When people think about BR, they think of Michelle and Danny. When they think of TDK, Heath's Joker comes to mind a mile before Eckhart. I bet in the hive mind of the public, most people probably don't recall the details of Eckhart's performance. They'd say "Eckhart, who? Oh? That's the guy who played Two-Face right?" Eckhart is not in the same league as Heath, or perhaps a few other choice actors, but that's just my own opinion. While Eckhart is not a total mis-cast, I personally felt it was a missed opportunity. He's there to fill a position. And that's that.

Right, so his zeal to bring Gotham back from the criminals, his passionate belief in Batman, his unpredictable nature in instances like abducting and terrorizing a Joker accomplice or turning himself in as Batman etc only showed you a regular guy in a nice looking suit?

I'm really anxious to hear what your vision of Harvey Dent is.

I just don't buy that the goody two-shoe Dent we saw up until the "abduction" was actually a man who tosses a coin. There's no hint of Dent's dark side prior to that scene. He suddenly turned from good to half-bad in a moment's notice. That's not very convincing. Maybe it's the script, maybe it's Nolan, maybe it's Eckhart, but the guy is as dry as they come in terms of putting on a multi-layered performance. He's got little charisma. He never looks like he's got something less-than-noble to hide behinds his eyes. Again, perhaps it's just a matter of taste.

All of that was addressed. He initially believed he could make his own luck hence why his coin was a two headed coin. The fact the coin got scarred by the explosion that killed Rachel was damning proof that he cannot make his own luck and it is based on chance. 50/50. Same odds he and Rachel had.

That's another problem that I had: we're SUPPOSED to care for Nolan's Dent when he and his girl were in danger. But I really didn't give two bits about this whole "suspense". Rachel Dawes V1 from Begins and V2 from TDK is nothing more than a token romantic interest that's always been written for Bat-films; they're hollow to the core and unrealistic. Can the audience genuinely care for such a character? If "decisions" is the name of the game, then perhaps I'd have prefer Rachel to be alive. This way we would of had a scene where she must confront the new Dent (Rachel seeing Two-Face would have more gravity than Gordon seeing Two-Face).

It is also difficult to convince normal people, as complex as we become with time, that such a "white knight" like Dent actually exists. We have little to no background story on him, he's dropped into this film like soap in a bucket. A few short court scenes with laughable secondary actors are supposed to weren't enough to show what made him the greatest DA of Gotham.

My "vision": To really amp up Dent's story a bit more, you'd need more interaction between him and Bruce Wayne (not as Batman). Not just Bruce praising Harvey but perhaps some dialogue that reflect more conflicts of morality and hints of their double-life, split minds and differing ideologies. You know, more than just a dinner scene with a lifeless Rachel Dawes, a Russian dancer and reliance on Zimmer music.

Maybe a subplot of Dent planting evidence against the crooks would make him a truly tragic hero, some sort of false prophet. Rather than just pointing a gun at a mental patient and flipping a coin (cops in pop culture use force in interrogation all the time), why not have him flip a coin so he picks whether or not to play dirty?

Have Harvey do the dirty deed then have him hint to Rachel in a bed scene about what he has done, to gauge her reactions, to see if she understands or sympathizes. Maybe this way we could really see Dent as a moral man who eventually bends the rules to win an un-winnable battle. The end justifies the means sort of Harvey who is not sure about his choices.

If Rachel is dead by the time Harvey becomes Two-face, then have him grieve about his lies.

Or turn it around, keep Rachel alive and have Two-Face violently come clean with the truth so Rachel sees that her lover is not that simple.

So if you're still reading this, it's hard to "feel" for Nolan's Dent when he finally becomes Two-Face. Yes he lost Rachel, but I'm always wondering why are the two in love. The film does little display explain their affections. But then again, I must believe that they are in love simply because the film will not work otherwise. In other word, Eckhart and Maggie have almost no chemistry. I'm forced to believe that they have some type of bond even when I'm not seeing any. Since I cannot genuinely believe that they're in love, everything else about Two-Face just falls apart as Nolan's Two-Face was more or less out to avenge his girlfriend.

So Dent was never out to become another Batman in TDK. In fact in case you missed the obvious, the whole point was that he was seen as the total opposite of Batman. A hero with a face who doesn't hide behind a mask. The symbol of hope Gotham can never be.

Who ever decides to take a stab at Dent in the reboot has some big shoes to fill.

The best take on Harvey has yet to come. Nolan did what he needed to weave a Harvey Dent/Two-Face arc into TDK. But Two-Face deserves a more careful and intricate treatment, at least to the degree that they had put into Heath's Joker.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Whoa, they showed the Seal "Kiss From a Rose" BF music video this morning on VH1. Great song and I liked the video. Partly because of the 90's nostalgia.

And Bruce's scene talking to Dick about revenge is a great one. Also, O'Donnel's Grayson was one of the strongest aspects of the film. And "I'm both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not because I have to be. Because I choose to be." And I liked how they explored Bruce's past this time. It's a shame. Had Burton taken some of these ideas and made his own film, it could have been the best Burton one. I would kill to see a third Burton Batman film.

But in the meantime, I want to watch the Red Book edition. I found a cool trailer for it. Gives me chills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DFannlWa74

 

[The Joker]

How did he knock it out of the park?

By capturing the spirit of Harvey Dent and Two Face perfectly in his performance. The transition is near flawless. His Harvey is someone who believes in the law.

This article sums it up better than I can:

“You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”

These words, spoken by Harvey Dent in the film and its trailers, portend the inevitable corruptibility of heroes in the Batman universe. At the beginning of the film, Dent represents absolute good, a goodness that’s so pure, that has so much potential to change Gotham, that even Batman is thinking of hanging up his spurs.

Dent is referred to frequently as Gotham’s “White Knight,” a term used throughout the course of the film. I was speaking with a friend about this movie today and he pointed out that when he went to see the movie he did not anticipate “The Dark Knight” could actually also refer to Dent, a clever yet profound subtext to the film (and that’s not even mentioning the night/knight pun, which I will choose never mention again after this sentence). Indeed, Dent’s journey from light to darkness is handled plausibly and adeptly in the film, which makes his story arc monstrously tragic.

Many people have remarked on how depressing the film is and I would say that I mostly agree: The Joker’s ability to destroy that which Dent loves and turn him to the evil that he becomes is sad in a way that can only be experienced by seeing the film. But the apparent relative ease with which Joker does this is what makes the Dent storyline strike so close to home: The film makes us realize that we, as humans are limited, and that our capacity to be good is subject to the vagaries of fate and whatever the hell else decides to destroy what we love. Dent is not just a proxy for hope, he’s a proxy for us as well, reminding us of the duality that lies within each of us.

http://www.slashfilm.com/assessing-the-themes-of-the-dark-knight/

To me, he's got this wide eye hollow look on his face. Granted, he's got a good jawline and all, he looks like Dent if we only had a photo, but there's not a hint of darkness to him. Again, I've mentioned this in the past, but the guy looked like he walked from the set of "Thank You For Smoking" and over to TDK's set. The only difference is that he's reading off two different scripts. He never transformed into Harvey.

Wide eyed hollow look?

http://screenmusings.org/TheDarkKnight/pages/tdk_0267.htm
http://screenmusings.org/TheDarkKnight/pages/tdk_0409.htm
http://screenmusings.org/TheDarkKnight/pages/tdk_0827.htm
http://screenmusings.org/TheDarkKnight/pages/tdk_0940.htm
http://screenmusings.org/TheDarkKnight/pages/tdk_1360.htm

No offense, but you're talking nonsense, man.

Yeah, but all it felt mechanical. I believe someone else with more range would have done a better job than Eckhart (a gritty Jon Hamm maybe?).

It felt organic and very natural to me. I don't know what kind of standard you expect from actors if you felt his performance was mechanical. It's one of the best performances in a comic book movie.

He's got so many greats scenes but my favorite is the final one with Gordon and Batman where Eckhart raises the roof. His pain and anger at Batman and Gordon felt so real and genuine. You could see he was a man pushed over the edge.

When people think about BR, they think of Michelle and Danny. When they think of TDK, Heath's Joker comes to mind a mile before Eckhart. I bet in the hive mind of the public, most people probably don't recall the details of Eckhart's performance. They'd say "Eckhart, who? Oh? That's the guy who played Two-Face right?" Eckhart is not in the same league as Heath, or perhaps a few other choice actors, but that's just my own opinion.

When people think of The Silence of the Lambs they think of Hannibal Lecter, despite the fact that he only has about 18 minutes screen time and Jodie Foster is the leading character who also won an Oscar.

The fact that Heath comes to mind before anyone else doesn't diminish the effectiveness of Eckhart's performance at all.

I just don't buy that the goody two-shoe Dent we saw up until the "abduction" was actually a man who tosses a coin. There's no hint of Dent's dark side prior to that scene.

So what? That scene was all you needed to see he DID have a dark side. He did that just when Rachel was threatened. Imagine what he'd do if she was murdered.

What preludes to Selina Kyle's dark side did you see prior to her going loopy and deciding to sew herself a skin tight cat suit? What about her before that fall made you think this is a woman who would be involved in blowing up buildings, abductions and murder frame ups?

He suddenly turned from good to half-bad in a moment's notice. That's not very convincing.

No, he didn't. There was several preludes to it. First and foremost is the aforementioned scene involving abducting and terrorizing the Joker accomplice.

Second is the scene with Gordon after the scarring. Before the Joker even visits him and adds fuel to the fire. Dent expresses extreme anger and hate at Gordon for the betrayal he sees at Gordon's men being involved in what happened to him and Rachel.

Gordon: "I'm sorry, Harvey"
Dent: "No. No you're not. Not yet"

Again, perhaps it's just a matter of taste.

It clearly is in your case.

That's another problem that I had: we're SUPPOSED to care for Nolan's Dent when he and his girl were in danger. But I really didn't give two bits about this whole "suspense". Rachel Dawes V1 from Begins and V2 from TDK is nothing more than a token romantic interest that's always been written for Bat-films; they're hollow to the core and unrealistic.

That's your own preference. I can't tell you that you're right or wrong for not caring any more than you can tell me I'm wrong for not caring about Selina Kyle prior to her being turned into Catwoman.

But there is nothing hollow or unrealistic about a guy who is driven mad with grief over the loss of a loved one. It's the foundation for so many characters. Batman being one of them.

Did you give a flying fudge about the Waynes? I sure as heck didn't, yet Batman's whole foundation is based on him losing them.

It is also difficult to convince normal people, as complex as we become with time, that such a "white knight" like Dent actually exists. We have little to no background story on him, he's dropped into this film like soap in a bucket. A few short court scenes with laughable secondary actors are supposed to weren't enough to show what made him the greatest DA of Gotham.

You're really being silly now, man. Dent locked up half of the city's criminals. He wasn't dirty. He believed in Batman. He believed in saving Gotham.

In a City like Gotham, that is the best thing they've seen since sliced bread. You try and convince me that in a city as hopeless as Gotham, people would not put a great guy like that on a pedestal as a beacon of hope and virtue.

I can certainly buy it more than a city believing a bird man freak who's lived in the sewers all his life is the best candidate to run their city as Mayor

My "vision": To really amp up Dent's story a bit more, you'd need more interaction between him and Bruce Wayne (not as Batman). Not just Bruce praising Harvey but perhaps some dialogue that reflect more conflicts of morality and hints of their double-life, split minds and differing ideologies. You know, more than just a dinner scene with a lifeless Rachel Dawes, a Russian dancer and reliance on Zimmer music.

Maybe a subplot of Dent planting evidence against the crooks would make him a truly tragic hero, some sort of false prophet. Rather than just pointing a gun at a mental patient and flipping a coin (cops in pop culture use force in interrogation all the time), why not have him flip a coin so he picks whether or not to play dirty?

Have Harvey do the dirty deed then have him hint to Rachel in a bed scene about what he has done, to gauge her reactions, to see if she understands or sympathizes. Maybe this way we could really see Dent as a moral man who eventually bends the rules to win an un-winnable battle. The end justifies the means sort of Harvey who is not sure about his choices.

If Rachel is dead by the time Harvey becomes Two-face, then have him grieve about his lies.

Or turn it around, keep Rachel alive and have Two-Face violently come clean with the truth so Rachel sees that her lover is not that simple.

That would completely diminish the effectiveness and tragedy of the character by portraying him like that. The brilliance in the tragedy of Harvey Dent becoming Two Face is that he wasn't a false prophet or a guy who relied on breaking or cheating the law in any way. The law failed him. Not the other way around. In the comics as well as in TDK, it is ultimately the corruption in the law that leads to Harvey's downfall.

He was a good guy who tried to play by the rules and do the right thing and he lost everything because of it. The power of that line he says in the final showdown "You thought we could be decent men in an indecent time. We were wrong. The only morality in a cruel world is chance. Unbiased. Unprejudiced. Fair".

So with all due respect, I hope your version of Dent is never used. I prefer noble and honest Harvey who loses everything.

The best take on Harvey has yet to come. Nolan did what he needed to weave a Harvey Dent/Two-Face arc into TDK. But Two-Face deserves a more careful and intricate treatment, at least to the degree that they had put into Heath's Joker.

He got a careful and intricate treatment. It is the best take on Dent we've had so far. It's probably the best villain Nolan has done because he's so fleshed out and well rounded.

Joker was great, but he was a total mystery regarding his background, which is the way Joker should be. But he was not given the level of attention Dent was, which is as it should be. Joker is an absolute. He is what he is and knows what he wants to do.

Dent has to be shown to go from a rise and fall from grace, which Nolan captured brilliantly.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Just want to chimm in on the Two Face issue. We DID see a hint of Dent's temper in TDK when he abducted one of Joker's thugs and wanted to blow his brains out before Batman intervened

I also think that he did have range of emotions. He was just a calm person, and maybe that make some believe that Aaron was just phoninh in his lines. He was this calm guy who believed in justice, than at the end he was this angry A hole that you just loved to hate

People remember Heath more cause everyone who knows Batman knows Joker. General audience doesnt know Two Face, and he wasnt in the TV show. Yeah, he was in Forever but I doubt the general audience remember him. Everything was either red, pink or green in Forever and all he was in Forever was just a cackling guy who was half pink like the background who laughed like a mentally challenged person and made silly faces whenever Riddler said soemthing

 

[El Payaso]

As cheesy as Tommy Lee's Two Face was, I thought the actor had the chops to play the real Dent/Two Face, at least in much greater capacity than Eckhart, who is as a wooden as a door nail.

The problem with Nolan's Two Face is that he's either happy, worried, or angry. There's no subtlties. He's just an actor, just there to deliever his lines and have Nolan tell him "go, be angry!".

When he was Dent, to me, he was just yet ANOTHER dude in a nice looking suit. I wasn't given anything to think that this guy was all that special. When he turned into Two-Face, he was just angry, ready to kill at a moment's notice. More could have been done with his character, at least when it comes to why he believes in luck and the random toss, or becoming at least torn with the idea that he should take revenge, to kill or not to kill.

So looking back, BF's Two Face was too cheesy but it's not like Nolan got the right tone either. I believe in a future reboot after Nolan, we ought to get Two-Face the way he appears in the comic, a rogue who's out for justice without becoming another Batman, yet can be embraced by the public but still devious enough to get the job done, no matter what.

Mh. Personally I liked Eckhardt's Harvey Dent/Two-Face more than Ledger's Joker. And that's saying nothing bad about Ledger's. But with a misterious Joker you need a good characerization, and tons of a messy make up will make you unrecognizable anyways. Now Harvey Dent's story needs subtleties and if you're in the same movie with the Joker you have a bad battle to fight.

Now it's okay if you didn't like it. But this post feels like you're comparing him to Tommy Lee Jones's performance. There's a point where the coulda-shoulda-woulda thing doesn't matter. It is when things are done. Nothing in this world can save the horrid portrayal Jones did of Two-Face. Not even those 20 good seconds in the first scene. Could have been better? Sure. But it was not.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Shame about his first few lines. They had something there.

"One man is born a hero, his brother a coward, babies starve, politicians grow fat, holy men are martyred, and junkies grow legion."

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

You know how fans were complaining of Two-Face re-flipping his coin until he got the result he wanted in BF?
Well, I just realized that they did that in TDK as well, when Harvey is holding Thomas Schiff at gunpoint, he is re-flipping the coin for another go when Batman interrupts him.
Ok, it's Harvey, he hasn't burnt his face off yet, but still, he's in his dark side Two-Face mode there.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Door nails are not wooden

Jones is a great actor and maybe with a better script he could have done Dent justice, but Eckhart knocked it out of the park. In many ways he gave the most real performance of the movie. It's a shame he's often over shadowed by Heath.



What "subtleties"? How many range of emotions did you want to see from the character beyond happy, worried, or angry? Not that they were the only emotions he showed. You can throw in grief, too.



Right, so his zeal to bring Gotham back from the criminals, his passionate belief in Batman, his unpredictable nature in instances like abducting and terrorizing a Joker accomplice or turning himself in as Batman etc only showed you a regular guy in a nice looking suit?

I'm really anxious to hear what your vision of Harvey Dent is.



All of that was addressed. He initially believed he could make his own luck hence why his coin was a two headed coin. The fact the coin got scarred by the explosion that killed Rachel was damning proof that he cannot make his own luck and it is based on chance. 50/50. Same odds he and Rachel had.



Dent was never out to become another Batman in TDK. In fact in case you missed the obvious, the whole point was that he was seen as the total opposite of Batman. A hero with a face who doesn't hide behind a mask. The symbol of hope Gotham can never be.

Who ever decides to take a stab at Dent in the reboot has some big shoes to fill.

Agreed.

 

[Marx]

You know how fans were complaining of Two-Face re-flipping his coin until he got the result he wanted in BF?
Well, I just realized that they did that in TDK as well, when Harvey is holding Thomas Schiff at gunpoint, he is re-flipping the coin for another go when Batman interrupts him.
Ok, it's Harvey, he hasn't burnt his face off yet, but still, he's in his dark side Two-Face mode there.

I think the difference there is that TDK Harvey was re-flipping on Schiff to scare the hell out of him. He never had any intention of killing him.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I think the difference there is that TDK Harvey was re-flipping on Schiff to scare the hell out of him. He never had any intention of killing him.

Exactly.

 

[Doctor Jones]

And you know, it's a same sided coin.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Well, I just realized that they did that in TDK as well, when Harvey is holding Thomas Schiff at gunpoint, he is re-flipping the coin for another go when Batman interrupts him.

Double sided coin.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Ah, I forgot the coin had not been scarred yet, ah fug it, lol.

edit: and aye, you're right, he was not intending to murder by coin flip either, so if it had been scarred, it would not have mattered as he was bluffing.

Wow, I actually did not think through a superhero movie scene properly and got something wrong about it, this will be a day long remembered! haha

the scene in Bf is pretty dumb though, needlessly dumb as well, they could easily just have had Two-Face flip the coin once to determine whether or not to shoot Bruce.

another thing that has always bothered me about that ending...ok, Two-Face is dead, apparently(although we see his jacket in Arkham in B&R), the Riddler is in the loony bin with no memory of Bruce's secert Id, but what about all the henchmen thugs? Surely they all know Bruce's secret ID as well?

 

[Batman jr.]

I WILL be killed for this but:

I like BF much more than BR (which I HATE with a passion, I can't be the only one!)

In fact, some deleted scenes should've stayed in, like the giant Bat and the little dialogue before it between Bruce & Alfred.

Too bad they wasted Two Face and gave Gotham the "circus" look.

 

[Batman jr.]

I assume B&F = B&R.

B&R was simply the same structure and tone, but without the goodies BF had (Jim Carrey, Batman's troubled mind). And add to that Batgirl.

BF was better than that. Now we're talking about the absolute worst superhero movie, so I'm not sure if that's much of an achievement.

But even Forever can't touch what Burton did. The Riddler and that cackling Two-Face travesty we got can't touch Nicholson's Joker, the magnificent Catwoman or the improvement over the original character DeVito's Penguin was. There you have evil and tortured sould, not just egomaniac cackling humages of the 1966 TV series.

?

Devito's Penguin that coughs black blood is not an update, it's just Burton's "vision". And evil? Sorry, my grandmother was more evil and she got to 99.

Catwoman was good, but Michelle is and will always be ubermilf.

 

[Mister Meddle]

?

And evil? Sorry, my grandmother was more evil and she got to 99.

So your grandmother tried to murder all of the children in her hometown? Interesting....

 

[Batman jr.]

So your grandmother tried to murder all of the children in her hometown? Interesting....

Lol no, but in the final two years of her life she didn't do much besides sitting there & staring.

That made me a bit scared at times.

 

[El Payaso]

?

Devito's Penguin that coughs black blood is not an update, it's just Burton's "vision".

I never said it was an update, and never denied it was Burton's vision. I said it was an improvement over the original character.

And evil? Sorry, my grandmother was more evil and she got to 99.

So your grandmother tried to murder all of the children in her hometown? Interesting....

(I know it's Meddle's reply but there's not much to say about that statement of yours).

Lol no, but in the final two years of her life she didn't do much besides sitting there & staring.

So, Penguin was thousands of times more evil. I kinda knew it.

 

[Batman jr.]

Then we're cool.

It must've been the hot weather here.

 

[Batman jr.]

1) Two Face (mentioned above): He could've been much better, proof? His "serious" lines, like when he starts rambling to the captive guard.
2) Gotham City (mentioned above): too disco-like, but nowhere near as bad as in B&R of course.
3) Cut scenes (one mentioned above): Bruce confronting the giant bat & of course the awesome opening with TF escaping.
4) Nipples

But here are the things I DO like:

1) Bruce's car & bike collection
2) Nicole Kidman: before her botox-period...
3) Jim Carrey as Riddler: made me an instant fan!
4) The scenes with TF & Robin on the rocks of Claw Island
5) Val Kilmer, downplayed and with a stylish darkness
6) Alfred & Bruce's relationship