The Official Batman Returns Thread

[Charlie No-One]

Plus it just feels the most Batman to me. The newer films may be great, but I feel as though they don't grasp the style of the comics.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Exactly! I think this movie is so underrated it's annoying.

 

[The Joker]

I've always loved Batman Returns. Definitely one of my favs.

 

[BatmanForNever]

On a side note I just did get Michelle's autograph on the sexiest bed scene from the movie.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Does anybody think that Danny DeVito honestly deserved a Razzie nomination (Worst supporting actor - 1993) for his performance in this film?

Some may not like the direction the character went... but for commitment to the character, script, Burton and the film as a whole... DeVito was outstanding!!!

Did DeVito really give a bad performance??

 

[DarthDaveBanner]

Does anybody think that Danny DeVito honestly deserved a Razzie nomination (Worst supporting actor - 1993) for his performance in this film?

Some may not like the direction the character went... but for commitment to the character, script, Burton and the film as a whole... DeVito was outstanding!!!

Did DeVito really give a bad performance??

No way. Up until TDK he gave my favourite bat-villain performance.

 

[BatmanForNever]

I thought DeVito did a great job, he played the Penguin extremely well, and being in that suit all the time filming, the damn deserves an award. He is always the most gracious Batman actor and is always very generous to us fans, and seems like a great guy.

 

[returntovoid]

I have a question about Batman Returns.

Was Catwoman actually supernatural in Batman Returns or not???

It would be much appreciated if someone would elaborate an answer to it.

 

[The Joker]

It's pretty obvious she was supernatural. She could survive being shot repeatedly, falling off buildings etc. She had nine lives.

Catwoman to Shreck: "You killed me, the Penguin killed me, Batman killed me"

 

[El Payaso]

IMO it was very ambiguous. If you want to believe she was, then you have enough to fill that perspective. But people saturated of adrenaline have endured gun shots.

It's pretty obvious she was supernatural. She could survive being shot repeatedly, falling off buildings etc. She had nine lives.

I see your point, but many characters in the Burton's bat-films survived things nobody in real life could have.

Catwoman to Shreck: "You killed me, the Penguin killed me, Batman killed me"

Oh never believe what a character says about himself.

 

[Fresh Prince]

This movie was the third best in the bat franchise....Better then BB.

 

[Cain]

I never took it literally at all as well. Burton's main influences on these movies were german expressionism and film noir both sub-genres of cinema that excel at delivering ambiguous and vague moments that are left to the audience's imagination to interpret. Interactive cinema if you will. Had the awnings not been there to break her fall I'd say it was clear cut that there is a supernatural element at bay.

However since they were deliberately placed in the scene where she falls it can never really be called. Then the fact that her "deaths" are also ambiguous and have reasonable explanations for not actually being "deaths" leaves it all up to the individual viewer to determine what he/she thinks of Catwoman in BR.

There is no right or wrong answer at all nothing is clear cut and this is what I appreciate most. To some she's a crazy zombie ***** to me she's just another traumatized victim lashing out without a care because of the fractured psyche caused by her traumatic experience like the other rogues in Burton's Batman universe.

 

[Cain]

This movie was the third best in the bat franchise....Better then BB.

I agree, I consider it one of the boldest and most creatively ambitious blockbusters of all time as well. Possibly the most expensive "art film" ever made.

 

[The Joker]

I see your point, but many characters in the Burton's bat-films survived things nobody in real life could have.

True, but they hammered it home to us that Catwoman could survive repeated instances like this, and even had her say so herself to various characters that she can survive death nine times.

She seemed to embody alot of characteristics of a cat. Like when she comes home after being revived by the cats, she starts gulping down a carton of milk. She gives herself "a bath" like a cat does at the Penguin's place etc.

I really hope she washed that cat suit after falling into the truck full of kitty litter

Oh never believe what a character says about himself.

LOL! Even when she's getting shot repeatedly with a gun, and keeps on coming at you like Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers?

 

[mothy]

Does anybody think that Danny DeVito honestly deserved a Razzie nomination (Worst supporting actor - 1993) for his performance in this film?

no way. that razzie nomination was a total disgrace. in terms of descending into the character, he was as good as ledger in my book.

 

[Travesty]

LOL! Even when she's getting shot repeatedly with a gun, and keeps on coming at you like Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers?

She probably had a Kevlar under her suit.

 

[El Payaso]

True, but they hammered it home to us that Catwoman could survive repeated instances like this, and even had her say so herself to various characters that she can survive death nine times.

She seemed to embody alot of characteristics of a cat. Like when she comes home after being revived by the cats, she starts gulping down a carton of milk. She gives herself "a bath" like a cat does at the Penguin's place etc.

I really hope she washed that cat suit after falling into the truck full of kitty litter

Haha.

Well, look; Burton gave us all the signals of her being a human cat. That doesn't mean that she is. Batman has survived as many accidents as Catwoman but since he's dressed as a bat, nobody makes the human-cat associationj like they do with Catwoman. Burton gives us the signals and we read them as we want to. Of course his idea is that Catwoman should be perceived as a human cat. But in spiote of his evident message, she could just be a crazy woman in a world where people don't die from falling (well, not even Nolan's bat-universe is like that too much).

Bottom line; it's all up to interpretation and thus I don't think the idea of the movie is to be conclusive in either way.

LOL! Even when she's getting shot repeatedly with a gun, and keeps on coming at you like Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers?

Well, according to her she was "Saved by kitty litter." So how could have Batman killed her if she was saved?

But usually the characters in a movie or play are never honest about themselves unless they're in a monologue or something like that.

 

[The Joker]

Haha.

Well, look; Burton gave us all the signals of her being a human cat. That doesn't mean that she is. Batman has survived as many accidents as Catwoman but since he's dressed as a bat, nobody makes the human-cat associationj like they do with Catwoman. Burton gives us the signals and we read them as we want to. Of course his idea is that Catwoman should be perceived as a human cat. But in spiote of his evident message, she could just be a crazy woman in a world where people don't die from falling (well, not even Nolan's bat-universe is like that too much).

Again true, but Batman wears armour and stuff, and he was not revived from death by a bunch of bats. Selina was brought back from death by cats. Why would cats chewing her fingers and running all over her revive her, unless they somehow used some kind of their life force or something like that to bring her back.

Batman also doesn't behave like he is a bat like hang upside down from his batcave or anything like that. Catwoman displayed several cat like traits as I mentioned above.

She also suddenly became remarkably agile and a brilliant fighter without any training.

Bottom line; it's all up to interpretation and thus I don't think the idea of the movie is to be conclusive in either way.

That's fair enough, but I think the evidence for her being supernatural is pretty darn heavy compared to the idea that's she's just insane. Not I don't think she didn't have a screw loose, because she did.

I love that crazy hysterical laugh she gives Bruce at the party when they're dancing, and she shows him the gun she's carrying to kill Schreck with.

Well, according to her she was "Saved by kitty litter." So how could have Batman killed her if she was saved?

I think when she said saved, she meant she wasn't splattered on the concrete street. Instead she got a more cushioned place to land.

But it could be interpreted that the fall into the truck might not have been fatal to a normal person.

But usually the characters in a movie or play are never honest about themselves unless they're in a monologue or something like that.

Right. But I cannot deny her getting shot FOUR times at close range and just walking it off like it was nothing.

I mean if that doesn't prove she's got nine lives, then I don't know what else could. We even saw her alive at the end, after surviving the electrical inferno in Penguin's lair.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

You forgot to mention that Selina Kyle suddenly became a crazy martial artist, too. Bitten by radioactive cats .

 

[Fresh Prince]

I agree, I consider it one of the boldest and most creatively ambitious blockbusters of all time as well. Possibly the most expensive "art film" ever made.

Agreed.

 

[El Payaso]

Again true, but Batman wears armour and stuff, and he was not revived from death by a bunch of bats. Selina was brought back from death by cats. Why would cats chewing her fingers and running all over her revive her, unless they somehow used some kind of their life force or something like that to bring her back.

Was she actually dead (so the cats "brought her back")?

That's up for interpretation.

Yes, the scene is made so you can visually see a corpse being revived but that's not necessarily what happened.

"Why would cats chewing her fingers and running all over her revive her, unless they somehow used some kind of their life force or something like that to bring her back"? I can say they were just looking for food and they smelt the blood.

It's not like the only possible reason for the cats doing that is to bring a person back from the death since it's something cats naturally do.

Batman also doesn't behave like he is a bat like hang upside down from his batcave or anything like that.

He actually does. When Vicky wakes up in the middle of the night, remember?

Catwoman displayed several cat like traits as I mentioned above.

Yes, she's insane; she believes in the cat within her. It's like a crazy man acting like Napoleon. It's not like he's actually Napoleon.

She also suddenly became remarkably agile and a brilliant fighter without any training.

Absolutely. That is part of what i'd call suspension of disbelief. But then again we don't know if she was trained as a martial artist previous to her "accident." Nothing says otherwise.

That's fair enough, but I think the evidence for her being supernatural is pretty darn heavy compared to the idea that's she's just insane. Not I don't think she didn't have a screw loose, because she did.

I love that crazy hysterical laugh she gives Bruce at the party when they're dancing, and she shows him the gun she's carrying to kill Schreck with.

Fantastic scene actually.

As you say, there's evidence in both ways; that's why I say ity's up for interpretation. You feel that the supernatural angle is more fleshed than the realistic angle. Fantastic, so you can interpret the story that way in a perfectly valid way. My point is that it's not conclusive and I think that was Burton's idea.

I think when she said saved, she meant she wasn't splattered on the concrete street. Instead she got a more cushioned place to land.

Exactly. Her life was 'saved.' So when she says that "Batman killed her" she's refering to what she thinks Batman intended to so, not a fact. Same for Penguin and Schreck.

But it could be interpreted that the fall into the truck might not have been fatal to a normal person.

The magic word.

Right. But I cannot deny her getting shot FOUR times at close range and just walking it off like it was nothing.

I mean if that doesn't prove she's got nine lives, then I don't know what else could. We even saw her alive at the end, after surviving the electrical inferno in Penguin's lair.

Well, if we get strict, cats do not have nine lives, so if they transferred her their 'powers' that wouldn't be one of them - again, - strictly speaking. You can throw cats away trying to kill them and they will survive; that's what happenes with them and that's what happens with Selina. Now, as I said, there are - I seem to remember - cases of people who in extreme cases are helped by adrenaline and can bear gun shots. But if you look carefully, even if Selina doesn't fall, her legs and body look weaker as she is being shot.

And yes, I agree with you; the last surviving with the electrical schock is there to make you wonder what really happen. That is a real evidence. It was put there by Burton after the shooting was over but it's still there.

 

[The Joker]

Was she actually dead (so the cats "brought her back")?

That's up for interpretation.

Yes, the scene is made so you can visually see a corpse being revived but that's not necessarily what happened.

She was pale white, no breath was seen coming from her mouth in the cold, like it was just when she hit the ground etc.

What do you think happened to her?

It's not like the only possible reason for the cats doing that is to bring a person back from the death since it's something cats naturally do.

Never said that's why the cats were doing it. I'm saying that's what happened, whether the cats meant to revive her, or just wanted to eat her corpse.

The fact that a gang of cats followed her back to her apartment also suggests she's got some kind of connection to them that goes beyond her being fond of cats

It was so darn eerie the way the were swarming into her apartment when she was trashing it, and hanging around her windows etc.

He actually does. When Vicky wakes up in the middle of the night, remember?

I think that was to show his obsession with his persona. Bruce Wayne never sleeps at night. That's when he operates. He sleeps during the day. Saw that in Begins, too. "Bats are nocturnal".

It's not that he thinks he's an actual bat.

Yes, she's insane; she believes in the cat within her. It's like a crazy man acting like Napoleon. It's not like he's actually Napoleon.

But a guy who acts like Napoleon doesn't walk off being tossed from buildings, and being shot four times at close range

Absolutely. That is part of what i'd call suspension of disbelief. But then again we don't know if she was trained as a martial artist previous to her "accident." Nothing says otherwise.

Yes, it does. Her utter terror and helplessness when the Circus Gang attacks, and even gets taken hostage. She was the typical terrified damsel in distress.

A trained martial artist would have kicked that clown's ass.

Fantastic scene actually.

As you say, there's evidence in both ways; that's why I say ity's up for interpretation. You feel that the supernatural angle is more fleshed than the realistic angle. Fantastic, so you can interpret the story that way in a perfectly valid way. My point is that it's not conclusive and I think that was Burton's idea.

I would agree with that, if the final scene where she gets shot FOUR times at close range, but just keeps on walking like it was nothing convinces me otherwise.

It could be argued that a normal person could survive the attacks she got from Batman and the Penguin, but not four shots like she got off Shreck. No way.

Exactly. Her life was 'saved.' So when she says that "Batman killed her" she's refering to what she thinks Batman intended to so, not a fact. Same for Penguin and Schreck.

If that was the case, then she wouldn't have said "You killed me, the Penguin killed me, Batman killed me. That's three lives down. You got enough in there to finish me off?".

Attempted kills don't take three lives. They "killed" her.

Well, if we get strict, cats do not have nine lives, so if they transferred her their 'powers' that wouldn't be one of them - again, - strictly speaking.

If you want to get strict, you don't survive being tossed out of a window like Selina did without so much as a broken leg, or spine, much less be revived by cats with nothing more to show than a cut on your forehead.

But we're not being strict because this was utter fantasy. And in this fantasy story, Selina inherited nine lives from the cats who revived her. That's why she survived the attacks she endured all through the movie.

Now, as I said, there are - I seem to remember - cases of people who in extreme cases are helped by adrenaline and can bear gun shots. But if you look carefully, even if Selina doesn't fall, her legs and body look weaker as she is being shot.

Man, even if I believed that, she would have eventually died from bleeding to death, or one of those four shots would have struck some kind of major organ.

The fact is that the bullets did not stop her in any way. After the first two shots, she says "Four, five......still alive" and does a huge crack of her whip.

That's not adrenaline. That's supernatural ability. I mean one gunshot from Shreck put Batman on the floor for several minutes, and he was wearing ARMOUR.

 

[El Payaso]

Before multi-quoting you into heartbreaking nitpickness and trollity, I'll say you make very good points. I say it's up to interpretation but as you put it, there's everything to think it was a supernatural cat-human being right there.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Catwoman wasnt killed. She landed in kitty litter and bushes,lol.

 

[Two-Face]

But she was shown looking at Batsignal at the end which meant she was gonna appear in the 3rd movie if Burton directed.