The Official Batman Returns Thread

[Young Superman]

Batman Returns is the BEST Bat film IMO, plus it also has the best Batsuit out of all the live action Bat films IMO.

 

[Two-Face]

Best bat film? Nah.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Returns if my mothers fav. But I consider it a testing ground for Burtons imaginative skills.

 

[The Joker]

I thought Beetlejuice did that.

Before multi-quoting you into heartbreaking nitpickness and trollity, I'll say you make very good points. I say it's up to interpretation but as you put it, there's everything to think it was a supernatural cat-human being right there.

Thank you, Payaso. Always a pleasure.

 

[Brother Jack]

Best bat film? Nah.

It's a Batman film in a loose sense honestly. The characters are just too different from their comic counterparts to be considered faithful adaptations. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I think in some cases elements of the characters were improved. But at the end of the day it's a Tim Burton creation.

 

[returntovoid]

To those who think that Batman Returns is not faithful to the comics in any way.

Check this link out, it's an analysis between the comics and Batman Returns.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58

 

[Cain]

To those who think that Batman Returns is not faithful to the comics in any way.

Check this link out, it's an analysis between the comics and Batman Returns.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58

I agree with this but I already see the counterpoints coming a mile away like

"Tim Burton doesn't like comic books it's just a coincidence"

as if every single Batman movie to date doesn't have moments that coincide with the comics in them or not. So what if they weren't purposeful they still exist. I'd also argue that the tone of the Gotham City that Doug Moench and Kelley Jones brought us is in the early to mid 90's is all over that movie. This is why I cannot understand all the people who bash one Batman movie in favor of the one they enjoy most.

At the end of the day they all pull from the character's 70 year history throughout all media. They also speak to different sets of fans that are part of the same family so why the bashing amongst each other still I say. It's time people learned to get over that and realize all these films are a testament and great tribute to how diverse the caped crusader actually is t:

The franchise playing out as it has has had an eerie purpose of completely matching the evolution of Batman as a character in comic books. So the good things are still gonna come for quite some time.

 

[X-Woman]

I found this only a so-so movie. One of the things that I didn't like about it was that I couldn't tell who the villains were. Well OK, I should say I know the villains are Penguin and Catwoman. But the way they're handled in the movie I'm not sure if the word Villain or Victim is the better way to describe them.

Both characters get origin stories in the movie. Neither story is necessary and they only slow down the action. But the real trouble is that both of the characters are shown as being victimized in some way, which is what led to their becoming villains. Selina Kyle gets crap from Max Shrek, and is thrown out a window. Oswold Cobblepot is a deformed child. Both of them suffer at the hands of others, and so become villains.

I find this approach unbelievably sappy. I don't want a villain who was victimized. I want a villain who is a villain because they enjoy being villainous. I want a villain who is bad not because they were treated badly, but because they have fun being bad.

Otherwise, I don't know if I'm supposed to feel sorry for these people or what. Should Batman bring these law-breakers to justice? Or should he give them a big bear hug and tell them everything will be all right?

I could not deal with the drippiness of this movie. I don't want a victim Catwoman. I want someone who is baaaaad to the boooone. And the Penguin should be full of diabolical wickedness, not feelings of inadequacy.

I like the signature that Happy Jack is using.....

Two Players,
Two Sides.
One is Light...
One is Dark.

That's what it is. That's what comic books are about. It's about characters who have an obvious delineation in terms of values. We know who the good guys are. And who the bad guys are. But in Batman Returns it's not clear. It's too ambiguous. We don't know who is dark and who is light. We don't know what dark and light even mean any more.

I walked out out the movie theater having no idea what I had just watched.

 

[The Joker]

Many of Batman's villains were victimized in some way in the comics. Scarecrow was bullied, Ivy was experimented on by Dr Woodrue, Mr Freeze lost his wife, Man Bat can't control the beast inside him, Two Face was scarred by the mob etc.

It doesn't make them any less a villain. Just because they had a harsh background or were mistreated in some way doesn't justify the evil they do. The Penguin trying to drown new born babies, and then trying to blow up all of Gotham City, are the most evil acts any villain tried to pull in the Batman movies, IMO.

 

[X-Woman]

Actually, yeah, you have a good point. But I think that what bothered me was that too much time and emphasis was put on the sad origins of these characters. Also, having not one but two sad origin stories really made things drag on for me. There was just too much focus on the victimization. And for me personally, I find watching villainy to be more fun than watching victimization. Just my 2 cents.

 

[returntovoid]

I agree with this but I already see the counterpoints coming a mile away like

"Tim Burton doesn't like comic books it's just a coincidence"

as if every single Batman movie to date doesn't have moments that coincide with the comics in them or not. So what if they weren't purposeful they still exist. I'd also argue that the tone of the Gotham City that Doug Moench and Kelley Jones brought us is in the early to mid 90's is all over that movie. This is why I cannot understand all the people who bash one Batman movie in favor of the one they enjoy most.

At the end of the day they all pull from the character's 70 year history throughout all media. They also speak to different sets of fans that are part of the same family so why the bashing amongst each other still I say. It's time people learned to get over that and realize all these films are a testament and great tribute to how diverse the caped crusader actually is t:

The franchise playing out as it has has had an eerie purpose of completely matching the evolution of Batman as a character in comic books. So the good things are still gonna come for quite some time.

Well said!

The whole Nolanite Vs. Burtonite thing is downright juvenile/stupid because both Nolan and Burton films are equally as valid to the comics books.

 

[union_jak]

Actually, yeah, you have a good point. But I think that what bothered me was that too much time and emphasis was put on the sad origins of these characters. Also, having not one but two sad origin stories really made things drag on for me. There was just too much focus on the victimization. And for me personally, I find watching villainy to be more fun than watching victimization. Just my 2 cents.

Is anyone ever actually born evil? This may be too deep for discussion, especially here on the Hype, but people aren't inheritantly evil, or wake up and decide to inflict misery on others. History is full of evil people, but they would have had their reasons, motivations and past clashes that push them towards whatever crimes they did.

We saw what made The Penguin want to drown infants in toxic waste, and why Catwoman blew up department stores; this was the evolution of the movie. Without seeing the key moments that 'created' these characters the audience would be forced to simply accept that they are bad. Besides, some would say that Max Shrek was the most evil as he wasn't a victim; his motivation was power and control (even quite literally when he was actually building a power station).

 

[El Payaso]

Well in all Spiderman movies we have kind-hearted people submitted to a scietific experiment that turns them evil. They all had sad stories behind.

I don't think the world is divided between white-good and black-evil.

 

[El Payaso]

Is anyone ever actually born evil? This may be too deep for discussion, especially here on the Hype, but people aren't inheritantly evil, or wake up and decide to inflict misery on others. History is full of evil people, but they would have had their reasons, motivations and past clashes that push them towards whatever crimes they did.

Ironically enough, Batman returns showed that Penguin was born inherintly evil. He was days old when he killed a cat for fun.

We saw what made The Penguin want to drown infants in toxic waste, and why Catwoman blew up department stores; this was the evolution of the movie. Without seeing the key moments that 'created' these characters the audience would be forced to simply accept that they are bad. Besides, some would say that Max Shrek was the most evil as he wasn't a victim; his motivation was power and control (even quite literally when he was actually building a power station).

What makes the movie rich is that at the end you have that sad Penguin's death that makes you (ok at least me) feel bad about him and his life. And then again minutes before he was ready to kill a lot of children. Not any director and/or actor can achieve that.

 

[X-Woman]

Is anyone ever actually born evil?

I think evil is a strong word, but I do think that people are born with predispositions for all different kinds of personality traits. That's what makes everyone unique. There's a lot of people who go through bad and abusive experiences, but only some of them decide that they want to inflict harm on society. The rest of them join support groups.

 

[Brother Jack]

What makes the movie rich is that at the end you have that sad Penguin's death that makes you (ok at least me) feel bad about him and his life. And then again minutes before he was ready to kill a lot of children. Not any director and/or actor can achieve that.

That is quite a feat, but it is an illusion. Penguin made the choice to do what he did, and if he had actually succeeded all sympathy for him would be lost. I think he might be one of the most pathetic villains ever because not only does he have a tragic backstory, is treated as a monster, and dies without redemption, he fails at literally everything he sets out to do. For all his rage and malice it's hard not to feel a little sorry for him based on that, but again, he chose to be the monster.

 

[El Payaso]

^ According to the movie he was born a monster. Before learning to speak he was killing cats for fun.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Batman Returns is the BEST Bat film IMO, plus it also has the best Batsuit out of all the live action Bat films IMO.

I agree.

 

[returntovoid]

People tend to say The Penguin in Batman Returns is not accurate to the comic books, just based on aesthetic, black mucus spitting.

But both Batman Returns and comic book origins had the same psychological effects on The Penguin

Batman Returns Origin:

the Penguin is born disfigured and his wealthy parents throw him into Gotham's sewers. The child survives, floating down Gotham's sewers and under the city zoo, where he is taken in by a group of penguins and later joins a circus freak show.

Comic Book Origin:

the Penguin was bullied as a child for his short stature, obesity, and beak-like nose. Several stories relate that he was forced as a child to always carry an umbrella by his over-protective mother, due to his father dying of pneumonia after being drenched in a downpour. He is an outcast in his rich, high society family; their rejection drives him to become a criminal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_(comics)

 

[The Joker]

That's right. Penguin has always been a tortured mind who was rejected by society. Burton just upped the ante, and made him a full on freak, who is alot more bitter and twisted, and wants to punish society alot more than just rob them blind.

The only thing that was missing was an explanation as to why Penguin had an affinity for umbrellas. But it's a very minor complaint. The umbrella weapons in Returns were so badass. Especially the Umbrella-Copter.

 

[Two-Face]

Sorry but I prefer comic book origin.

 

[returntovoid]

I might also add, that the look of The Penguin was used in the early episodes of BTAS that ran from 1992-1995.

The Penguins exaggerated freakish looks were there and his eyes had black circles just like Batman Returns.

Sorry but I prefer comic book origin.

It's OK if you prefer the comic book origin because it has an explanation for the umbrella obsession unlike the Batman Returns origin.

 

[Travesty]

The only thing that was missing was an explanation as to why Penguin had an affinity for umbrellas. But it's a very minor complaint. The umbrella weapons in Returns were so badass. Especially the Umbrella-Copter.

 

[Brother Jack]

I might also add, that the look of The Penguin was used in the early episodes of BTAS that ran from 1992-1995.

From what I understand that was due to TAS premiering close to when Batman Returns was released. The WB wanted the show to have a connection to the film.

 

[The Joker]

From what I understand that was due to TAS premiering close to when Batman Returns was released. The WB wanted the show to have a connection to the film.

Yep. Joker was even referred to as Jack Napier in one episode. And Selina Kyle was blonde like Michelle Pfeiffer.