The Official Flash Thread - Part 2

[metaphysician]

If I were to give a super franchise to Bay. . . oddly, I'd be inclined to give him the X-Men. Poor pacing, nigh random changes and character deaths. . . it'll feel just like the comics!

 

[Savage]

Haha that sounds perfect, actually. He'd run amock with the Sentinels and Shi'ar. Aw man, a Michael Bay Phoenix saga would be intense.

 

[ChickenScratch]

I'm for Bay directing pretty much ever action/adventure/superhero movie.

 

[protocida]

^ Two.

 

[Airwings]

No to Bay. I rather see Emmerich do superhero stuff.

 

[Savage]

God, no. Emmerich is a director that deserves far more hate than Bay ever will. Besides, his thing is disaster movies. Maybe a Fantastic Four movie centered around Galactus but don't expect much focus on the Four. We'll get the president and his wife and their dog and some guy in a trailer who's trying to get back together with his estranged wife who's dating another man who's a prick--Come to think of it, yeah, make Sue Storm date Doctor Doom and half of the story about Franklin Richards lost with H.E.R.B.I.E then yeah, Roland Emmerich can totally direct it.

 

[terry78]

The thing with Emmerich and Bay is that they like to do cliche ensemble movies with basic stereotypical members over and over. It's always the reluctant white guy hero, the grizzled guy, the obstructive bureaucrat who always gets theirs, etc. I know Bay did Bad Boys and the Island, the latter of which was actually pretty coherent, but they need to do more of those.

 

[Savage]

They really do need to branch out more. Add a little diversity and I don't mean racist characitures. The difference I feel is that at least Bay's characters are memorable. Just who were the people in The Day After Tomorrow? I spend his movies referring to his characters by the actors' names.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Is there really even a debate here? Bay is one of the great director of iconic images out there. He has scenes in TF that bring me right back to The Searchers. His use of light is also insane (imagine him on Flash huh), he edits great, his action scenes are top notch, he knows what sells and puts it in a movie.

He's a director with great technical facility who does not seem to loose sight of the fact that it's a business and excels at commercial film.

 

[gugumugats]

The thing with Emmerich and Bay is that they like to do cliche ensemble movies with basic stereotypical members over and over. It's always the reluctant white guy hero, the grizzled guy, the obstructive bureaucrat who always gets theirs, etc. I know Bay did Bad Boys and the Island, the latter of which was actually pretty coherent, but they need to do more of those.

The ensemble thing was what I was kind of thinking with the Rogues. Kind of like what was done with the oil rig crew in Armageddon. I would enjoy a Bay-directed Flash (and Rogues), but I think Snyder might do better for a Flash film considering his penchant for slow motion and Flash's powerset.

 

[Octoberist]

Transformers 2 remains crap but Ive never truly hated Bay though I think he has grown less mature with every preceding movie. Like a devolution because sometimes his latest stuff is way too self indulgent that it ruins the fun.

 

[Octoberist]

Is there really even a debate here? Bay is one of the great director of iconic images out there. He has scenes in TF that bring me right back to The Searchers. His use of light is also insane (imagine him on Flash huh), he edits great, his action scenes are top notch, he knows what sells and puts it in a movie.

He's a director with great technical facility who does not seem to loose sight of the fact that it's a business and excels at commercial film.

Like modern Tony Scott, Bay also needs restraint in which he learned the hard way with Transformers 2 which had terrible pacing and meanders in the first act. plus the stereotypes are on 11 in that one and remains the worst movie he's done.

It makes me miss his style from 'The Island' and Bad Boys.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Films like Bad Boys, Armageddon and The Rock were pretty decent. They're arguably his best work.

Transformers wasn't bad either but the sequels were just... awful.

 

[terry78]

If Bay got the reins for a superhero flick, you want Island Bay, not Revenge of the Fallen Bay.

 

[The Morningstar]

Is there really even a debate here? Bay is one of the great director of iconic images out there. He has scenes in TF that bring me right back to The Searchers. His use of light is also insane (imagine him on Flash huh), he edits great, his action scenes are top notch, he knows what sells and puts it in a movie.

He's a director with great technical facility who does not seem to loose sight of the fact that it's a business and excels at commercial film.

He also can't tell a coherent story and doesn't know what characterisation means unless he's doing it with a massive, broad paint brush.

Technically, he's a great action director. But, no matter how well shot an action scene is, if you can't root for the characters, if the story doesn't make any sense, there is no tension. And an action scene, no matter how spectacular, without tension, is completely redundant.

That is why Michael Bay sucks as a film maker. Because he either doesn't care or doesn't understand that characters and plot should be the main driving force of a movie, not ****ing action scenes. Modern Bay might as well just be a music video director.

 

[Savage]

I never quite got the Dark Of The Moon hate. I felt Bay redeemed himself with that one. There was a lot more focus on the Transformers themselves for a change than the human beings who I never cared all that much for...Hell, I just might Netflix it now just thinking about the scene with Shockwave and the falling building.

I honestly feel like Spielberg should be a little more hands on with the Transformers films. There needs to be more director teams out there. Sometimes one guy really needs to be reigned in.

 

[The Morningstar]

That's exactly it. The first Transformers was great. Because Spielberg was there every step of the way. It had Spielberg's heart and charm all over it.

The second two TF movies were just incoherent messes and spectacular action scenes.

I think Bay's best movies are The Rock and Armageddon. It's not coincidence that both of those were more character driven. The part where Willis is talking to Liv Tyler right at the end before he blows the asteroid up is genuinely great cinema.

Tis a shame Bay seems to have lost sight of great moments like that. Although there is some hints of it with Sam and Bee in the TF movies.

All in all, I don't want to see Bay direct any superhero movie, unless he turns back the clock and realises you need goo characters and a coherent plot to make any action scene worth while.

And yea the writers are responsible for the script. But any director worth a **** would understand what characterisation and plotting means and what is required, then make changes accordingly. Bay either doesn't understand, or simply doesn't care about proper characterisation and plotting, and just wants to be a man child with 200 million dollars and blow **** up.

If Bay was the guy in charge of all the action scenes in a movie, but someone like, Ridley Scott or Spielberg was in charge of the actual story and characters... you'd have the greatest blockbuster ever created.

 

[The Morningstar]

Anyway for Flash I think Brad Bird is a good choice. Great imagination and visual flair. But is great at characterisation and plotting.

I view Incredibles as the best superhero movie ever. So many layers to that film, a lot of which are really subtle. It's actually really intelligent, using metaphors and visual symbolism (notice in Edna's place the wall mural of Greek God's. What are superheroes but modern day mythological characters like the heroes of Ancient Greece?). He just "gets" the superhero genre and iconography. But it's also just so much fun and doesn't have it's head up it's ass.

I think he'd get a great balance for the team dynamic of the Rogues. Make them both threatening and comedic in how they clash with each other.

And of course I think he'd do a terrific job with Flash himself.

 

[protocida]

No tension? Sorry, but no. There's a lot of tension in all three movies.

 

[The Morningstar]

Only if you give a **** about the characters. No one really resembles real characters in the second two movies.

Take Lennox for example, in the first one we learn about him, he's got a family and all that. But that's just swept aside in the sequels to show him as the bad ass, awesome, cool dude who is awesome and bad ass. He and the military guys are not real characters. They're just card board cut outs who shout cliche military things. The characters, from the soldiers, to the civilians, to the high ranking CIA/government guys are just card board cut out archetypes with no real distinguishing features or personalities of their own. Compare them to the characters in Armageddon, if you can't see the difference then you live on a different planet. That great montage of them putting together Harry's team shows more characterisation than TF2 and 3 in their entirety.

The action scenes are just shallow demonstrations of the latest SFX and CGI technologies. Spectacular and technically well done as they are, it's all just redundant.

 

[Airwings]

If Bay got the reins for a superhero flick, you want Island Bay, not Revenge of the Fallen Bay.

The first half of The Island doesn't feel like a Bay movie. And that's how he should do a superhero adaption.

 

[Savage]

Only if you give a **** about the characters. No one really resembles real characters in the second two movies.

Take Lennox for example, in the first one we learn about him, he's got a family and all that. But that's just swept aside in the sequels to show him as the bad ass, awesome, cool dude who is awesome and bad ass. He and the military guys are not real characters. They're just card board cut outs who shout cliche military things. The characters, from the soldiers, to the civilians, to the high ranking CIA/government guys are just card board cut out archetypes with no real distinguishing features or personalities of their own. Compare them to the characters in Armageddon, if you can't see the difference then you live on a different planet. That great montage of them putting together Harry's team shows more characterisation than TF2 and 3 in their entirety.

The action scenes are just shallow demonstrations of the latest SFX and CGI technologies. Spectacular and technically well done as they are, it's all just redundant.

I think that depends on what you go to see a Transformers movie for. I literally convinced my friends to see the first movie with "Robots! Come on, you guys! ROBOTS!" so any decent character development is just a plus for me. I pretty much came for a cheap Universal Studios ride. I pay close to $18 for a movie ticket I better get something that makes those speakers, that 3D, and that Imax screen work really hard. Probably why I rarely go to the movies these days. There's just not that many flicks that make the price tag in NYC worth it (why I'm catching Girl With The Dragon Tattoo on DVD instead). If they removed every human character from these movies I would not even flinch.

With that said, IF Bay were to have a great co-director with him or if he focused on character development a little more like he used to then I'd be pretty excited about him helming a superhero flick. Especially a team superhero flick since he's great with rapport between characters. I'm actually very curious to see what he'd do with a team like The Fantastic Four or Doom Patrol. Justice League would be immense and he'd really bring out the unique qualities of each character.

I don't remember how we got on the subject of Bay for a Flash movie but I do agree that Brad Bird would do an awesome job. As would Snyder and JJ Abrams. Just trying not to sell Bay short here since the guy really is the master of spectacle and commercial film.

 

[metaphysician]

Honestly, I don't think Transformers needs deep characterization. It just needs enough for the characters to come through as likable.

 

[ChickenScratch]

All this talk of how he uses characterization is silly. It's friggin robots, this is not Death Of A Salesman here. The TF movies were exactly what they needed to be, story enough to serve for a vehicle for giant robots and Bayhem.

He can do characterization too by the way, I saw Armageddon with a bunch of friends from high school and I still cried in the theater when Bruce Willis died.

A project like The Flash would do well with a director like Bay. I'm reminded of a scene from the Flash novel DC did a few years ago when Wally was running and getting all rhapsodic about how the speedsters are meant to exist out on the plains and deserts of the US. For some reason, the way he shoots a desert, especially in the first one just before the aoutobots pull that U turn was some John Ford calibre stuff.

He can do action, yoou know he can shoot an investigation/CSI type scene with great flair, it'll look bold and bright from a lighting and coloring standpoint.

 

[terry78]

I think the one area he would really shine is like a montage set to a sweeping score of Barry/Wally/whoever just discovering the power they really hold and just going out in the middle of nowhere and just running, like maybe across various landscapes around the country.