The Official Flash Thread

[Kevin Smith]

This is completely untrue. Garrick has served as a mentor for all 3 Flashes and was even Barry's original inspiration for his secret identity.

Wrong. When Barry became Flash, Jay was non existant, in some other reality. Jay was merely a comic book character to Barry until he discovered the multiverse a few years later in his career. Even in post crisis stories, Jay had seemingly vanished with the rest of Keystone City and wasn't there to tutor Barry in his early days as Flash and didn't appear until Barry had been Flash for about 4 years or so. Everything Barry did and discovered, he did on his own. Jay and all the other remaining JSAers didn't come out of retirement till after Barry had been Flash for a few years, which mirrors them being reintroduced in the comics after Barry Allen jump started the silver age and caused a resurgence in comics.

And what do you mean Jay is the inspiration for Barry's name? Are you saying he called himself Flash because of Jay's comics or that the creators named him Barry after Jay? FYI, the "Barry" part of Barry Allen was named after a tv/radio show personality whose full name escapes me at the moment, I forget whom his last name was taken after, but it wasn't Jay Garrick. Either way, calling himself "Flash" because of Jay's comics doesn't mean that Jay was his tutor and does not make Barry a legacy character. Inspiration isn't even synonymous with legacy.

I'd say Garrick is more deserving for a spot in The Flash movie than Barry.

ROTFLMAO! Seriously? More than Barry, who is the iconic/definitive Flash, and was Flash longer than anyone (over 30 years) including Jay Garrick (who was only Flash for 11 years), who was like a father to Wally and supported him in everything he did before Wally even knew Jay existed, Barry, who created the scarlet speedster identity, whose discoveries and accomplishments exceed those of any other speedster to this day? Clearly, you don't know Barry Allen. Jay is about as important to a Flash film as Max Mercury or Johnny Quick, well probably a little more important than they but you get my point. I think.

Having Wally established as The Flash would not follow a typical 3 act origin. It by passes all the experimenting with powers, setting up villains, etc... We've all seen that way too many times, let's move on.

Having Barry die and then having Wally become Flash is an origin story. Only difference is he doesn't have to create the identity or discover his powers, he just needs to establish himself as Flash and that's what the film would be about. And as far as villains go, the Rogues, either way, don't need "in depth" origin stories, they can be like the Joker from TDK and just "be". But I'm sure if Wally is Flash and one of the Rogues takes out Barry he'll be swearing bloody vengeance and whichever Rogue did the deed will surely be established like most other movie villains. So doing Wally as Flash is just a much more complex, confusing origin story for non comic book audiences.

And how would it be confusing at all? A ten minute prologue setting Wally West as Barry's sidekick and Barry's death is all you need. People aren't stupid.

People unfamiliar with The Flash, GL, etc, need a name and a face for The Flash with a comprehensive back story. Try telling someone you know who is completely unfamiliar with comic books who Wally West or Jay Garrick are without mentioning Barry. You can't do it (believe me, I've tried). People may not know much about The Flash, but they can pick him out of a crowd. My cousin who doesn't know **** about comics pointed to The Flash on the DC Universe Encyclopedia out of the rest of the characters on there, and she said "that's The Flash". Try showing that person Jay Garrick and then telling him he's The Flash, and that he was The Flash before Barry but was cancelled and twice removed, blah, blah, blah, so on and so forth. People will pretend to listen if anything. So you just get thru explaining who Barry Allen/the Flash is; "a forensic scientist who got hit by lightning and gained super speed", a simple enough back story, and people begin to care. Now try explaining who Wally West is. It's already enough and a stretch for this new audience to take in that there was a guy who got hit by lightning and not only survived but also somehow got powers and became a superhero, and if you explain Jay Garrick, that another person was in another lab accident and got super speed and called himself the Flash, now it seems really far fetched and you're going to tell them about Wally West, a tween, who is Barry Allen's nephew by marriage, who, while visiting his uncle in the very same lab/place that he had an accident in, the very same accident suddenly and coincidentially repeats itself, giving young Wally powers just like The Flash. If they're still listening, this person is batting their eyes now. Now try explaining that he's Flash's sidekick "Kid Flash", the idea of a sidekick in general is already absurd and somewhat latently homosexual to common people thanks to stereotypes, and they also are expected to imbibe the name "Kid Flash", and it will seem like a joke to them, the very reason they don't read comic books. Now tell them after Barry died, Kid Flash became the new Flash. And after Kid Flash Flash disappeared, Barry's grandson from the future, Impulse, who also became the new Kid Flash, became the new Flash. Yeah, let's fit that into a movie, one movie, the first movie no less. Confused yet? If not, be thankful you're a fellow comic book geek, otherwise you would never have gotten this.

No, the Flash film needs to start at the top, at the foundation of the legacy/mythos, with something easy for new audiences to comprehend and pique their interest and make them care enough about the Flash to want to know more about him, and then go into the deep, complex history that the character has from there in sequels. They need a name and a face, something definitive for the new characters, and as far as Flash goes, Barry Allen is that person. The best origin stories are simple. Like "bitten by a radioactive spider" or "struck by chemicals and lightning" or "given a power ring for his honesty and bravery".

To really explain Wally's origin, you'd need to also explain who Barry was (same with Kyle Rayner).

Bogging the NEW audience down with over 30 years of continuity in the first film will freeze out new comers, just like the comics have done.

Using a simple origin, and using the most definitive/iconic version of a character makes it easier to attract new fans to the bigger DC Universe, which will be much more introductory and well recieved if the new comers have some sort of foundation to start with. And the DCU does need to attract new fans.

So go with the simplest, most iconic/definitive version of the character (Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Steve Rogers, Ray Palmer, Ollie Queen) and get a good writer capable of good characterization to craft an interesting story (cuz even the best of plots can fail due to poor characterization and bad writing in general) and you'll have an awesome movie.

Except that's not how Wally deals with Barry's death. Wally becomes an arrogant *******, which is something we really haven't seen in a Superhero movie (with the possible exception of Iron Man).

And he whines about how he's "never gonna be the man Barry was" and how he doesn't think he can fill his boots, you know this (I think). And Iron Man and the GL film both feature "arrogant" protagonsists, so that's been done as well. So has the legacy thing not that any of that matters.

Not to mention he eventually surpasses Barry, which is something I've seen him admit in a few comics. I'll post scans from Quiver later.

In which ways does he "surpass" Barry? He may have surpassed him in some powers (powers, not usage of them), but as far as accomplishments and iconography (and intellect) goes, Wally will always be second best. And DC telling us repeatedly that the successor is "better" like they also did with Kyle Rayner over and over again (and how Marvel has done with Bucky Captain America) to try and brain wash us into "accepting them" over their predecessors, frankly, doesn't mean a damn thing to me. They have to keep telling us because we can't see it. I don't see it, and anyone familiar with the originals (Barry, Hal, the ones who gave way to the successors) doesn't either.

Bottom line, The Flash is DC's greatest legacy character and to limit the movie to only Barry Allen would be an insult.

Bottom line: Wally may be the greatest, most definitive/iconic legacy character, but Barry Allen is the greatest, most definitive/iconic Flash, and to exclude him from the movie and use him as nothing other than a plot point for shoe-horning Wally into his suit is insulting. Doing the film with Barry first, like the comics, would not be "limiting" storytelling but would quite contrarily be the stepping stone for more great stories to come, because Wally comes after Barry Allen, and therefore works best that way. Barry was well established for over 30 years in the comics before Wally became Flash for the next 22 years. Wally didn't just wake up Flash, there was a lot of continuity, a lot of history, a lot of stories leading up to Wally becoming Flash. Those events aren't easily or justly crammed into "the first ten minutes" of The Flash film. Don't you think they could maybe do at least one or two films with Barry before moving on to Wally? For the sake of at least telling the best Wally West story, I hope you do.

 

[Kevin Smith]

I like the idea its just they can do that once Barry is set up. In fact, the Legacy movie would have more meaning after Barry since the audience would actually know him.

Exactly!

 

[Kevin Smith]

Barry and Hal have had a presence within the DCU after being replaced. Kyle was always in his shadow and every so often he appeared in GL as Parallax or as a GL (Emerald Knights) with the occasional appearance in mini-series over the years. Hal even got his own ongoing as the Spectre. Barry had less presence but still got the same respectful treatment Hal did.

While that is true, Barry had much less presence than Hal, IMO, and suffered from being portrayed as "captain cardboard" during Waid's early run in any flashbacks he was in, Waid gave him poor characterization, I think, although that was done to keep the foucus on Wally who was the star of the book. And a Hal Spectre series is not the equivalent of a Hal Jordan series.

Without Wally and Kyle to keep the franchises relevant the GL and Flash mantles in the comics would have faded greatly.

True.

 

[Kevin Smith]

And Scott Porter would be GREAT as Barry Allen/The Flash. He has the look (strawberry blonde hair and blue eyes), is the right age, height, and build, is a decent actor, and a comics fan to boot. That guy is The Flash, he has my vote.

 

[The Major]

While that is true, Barry had much less presence than Hal, IMO, and suffered from being portrayed as "captain cardboard" during Waid's early run in any flashbacks he was in, Waid gave him poor characterization, I think, although that was done to keep the foucus on Wally who was the star of the book.

Agreed. Though in the last few years Barry did get more fleshed out in mini-series like JLA: Year One and Brave and the Bold. DC reprinting the original Silver Age collections was great, too. If I read more series like that about Barry I would have become a fan much earlier. I haven't read any appearances of Barry in Waid's run on Flash, just the mini-series I mentioned which he wrote.

And a Hal Spectre series is not the equivalent of a Hal Jordan series.

Technically it was Hal Jordan title, just not a GL Hal Jordan title. A demotion, yes, but it was still an ongoing title of his own just the same. Not bad for a dead guy.

True.

t:

 

[Lane & Kent]

And Scott Porter would be GREAT as Barry Allen/The Flash. He has the look (strawberry blonde hair and blue eyes), is the right age, height, and build, is a decent actor, and a comics fan to boot. That guy is The Flash, he has my vote.

agreed.

 

[Lane & Kent]

Will someone please tell me where I can find pics of Barry Allen / The Flash from Justice League New Frontier.

 

[Changeling]

Look it up on google...

 

[NotFadeAway]

If the film were to be about Barry Allen, my choice would be Ben McKenzie, who I also like for Hal Jordan or Oliver Queen.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Agreed. Though in the last few years Barry did get more fleshed out in mini-series like JLA: Year One and Brave and the Bold. DC reprinting the original Silver Age collections was great, too.

Yeah, those were great. I also liked New Frontier, possibly the best Post Crisis Barry Allen story to date, IMO. I love the part where he floors King Faraday.

If I read more series like that about Barry I would have become a fan much earlier. I haven't read any appearances of Barry in Waid's run on Flash, just the mini-series I mentioned which he wrote.

Cool. Yeah, I wouldn't advise checking out Barry in any flashbacks that Waid wrote during his Flash run. I thought they were just terrible, he wrote Barry just really, really cardboard-ish, but I understand that was mainly done just to kinda keep the focus mainly on Wally since he hadn't been that well established yet so it's understandable (hopefully not because Waid just doesn't like Barry or something), if a little unfair. Now Geoff Johns on the other hand, even when he'd have Wally verbally mention Barry, and especially in flashbacks, he'd be constantly giving new characterization to Barry without detracting from Wally or anyone else, which I appreciated. It was a taste of how he would be written in the modern age. I hope to see more of this in Flash: Rebirth.

Technically it was Hal Jordan title, just not a GL Hal Jordan title. A demotion, yes, but it was still an ongoing title of his own just the same. Not bad for a dead guy.

"not bad for a dead guy" LOL!

t:

 

[Kevin Smith]

agreed.

Thanks! I forgot to add that Scott Porter also has my ideal voice for what The Flash/Barry Allen should sound like: Not raspy like Batman, not alpha male deep like Superman, he sounds like how Flash has been voiced in the cartoons and how I'd imagine him to sound; not a real deep voice, an everyman, talks kinda fast.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Will someone please tell me where I can find pics of Barry Allen / The Flash from Justice League New Frontier.

The comic or animated movie?

Here's both:

 

[Kevin Smith]

Dan Didio on Flash: Rebirth:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/020913-DiDio20.html

10. A couple of Flash questions showed up in the thread – Barry Allen had one of the most heroic and honorable deaths in modern comics, complete with his replacement coming of age and literally filling his boots to honor him. When the story lines up so logically, and his replacement, Wally, has been the Flash for the past 20+ years, why bring Barry back?

DD: The same logic that applied to Hal Jordan’s return applies to Barry Allen’s. My argument is that we want to return our characters to their most iconic representations. In the case of Flash – you can’t tell the origin of Wally West without Barry Allen. Barry Allen was the first Flash of this generation. You don’t have a Wally West without Barry. You don’t have a Bart Allen without Barry. You don’t have the Tornado Twins without Barry Allen. All of these things spring from Barry being the primary Flash. Beaucse of that, we decided to go back to our roots, find what made him the most unique Flash of the bunch – and not at the expense of the other Flashes. We wanted to show what makes Barry great, what makes Barry unique and show why Barry Allen is first and foremost, The Flash.

NRAMA: It seems like an uphill battle – for this generation of DC readers, or for the under 30 segment of DC readers, Wally has been The Flash for them. Barry coming back will appeal to a certain group of older fans who knew Barry as the Flash, and a group that you want to convince that Barry is “the” Flash for the DC Universe.

DD: There was a point in time where we convinced a group of fans that Wally West was the Flash after Barry’s death. There was a point in time when we convinced fans that Bart Allen could be the Flash. And you can argue that there was a time before Barry even appeared who believed that Jay Garrick was the only Flash. What we’re doing is we’re looking at all the new Flashes, and building new story on Barry. There are many things that make this character great and unique, and more importantly, we’re hoping that this will appeal to people who are fans of the Flash franchise.

You say I’m talking to fans who’ve never known Barry as the Flash, but the truth is, Wally has seen him and interacted with him. We have told stories from Brave and Bold to Flash itself where Barry was front and center. We’ve told stories with the Justice League where we’ve referred back to Barry. Quite honestly, Barry Allen has never been gone from the DC fans’ psyche for an extended period of time. It’s the same argument that I’ve made with Hal Jordan. When Hal Jordan was “dead,” he was in books just as much as when he was alive, both as The Spectre and in flashback appearances.

In both cases, the fact that our writers always go back to those touchstones, and that the fans always buy those stories when the characters appear in them show to us that there is a continued interest in those characters as well as continued support for those characters. Our hope is that when we bring them in and make them the regular Flash and Green Lantern again, and put them right in the front of the existing continuity, people will be there and excited about it.

11. A question then about Flash: Rebirth from the thread – is Geoff’s plan with Flash: Rebirth similar to what he’s done with Green Lantern, where Rebirth was the first part of a larger trilogy that now includes the Sinestro Corps War and the coming Blackest Night?

DD: That’s getting a little ahead of ourselves, but there are elements in Rebirth that will have definite repercussions when the regular series begins.

Good stuff. I can't wait for Rebirth!

 

[Kevin Smith]

NEW Flash: Rebirth #1 cover #2:

It's an homage to the original:

Freakin' sweet! I cannot wait for this!

 

[Lane & Kent]

The comic or animated movie?

Here's both:

Thanks Kevin

P.S The second Flash: Rebirth #1 cover is AMAZING!!!!! Thank you for sharing Kevin.

 

[The Major]

Yeah, those were great. I also liked New Frontier, possibly the best Post Crisis Barry Allen story to date, IMO. I love the part where he floors King Faraday.

Havent read New Frontier yet, but the movie was great. Barry was really cool in that.

Cool. Yeah, I wouldn't advise checking out Barry in any flashbacks that Waid wrote during his Flash run. I thought they were just terrible, he wrote Barry just really, really cardboard-ish, but I understand that was mainly done just to kinda keep the focus mainly on Wally since he hadn't been that well established yet so it's understandable (hopefully not because Waid just doesn't like Barry or something), if a little unfair.

I'd be surprised if Waid didn't like Barry to some degree. IMO he is just more focused on Wally since that was the Flash in his run. I've heard in interviews he sees himself in Wally so that may be a factor, as well. He definitely overcame this in the last few years with those mini-series. Those really opened my eyes to Barry's potential.

Now Geoff Johns on the other hand, even when he'd have Wally verbally mention Barry, and especially in flashbacks, he'd be constantly giving new characterization to Barry without detracting from Wally or anyone else, which I appreciated. It was a taste of how he would be written in the modern age. I hope to see more of this in Flash: Rebirth.

Agreed.

"not bad for a dead guy" LOL!

t:

 

[Lane & Kent]

Barry Allen is so cool he was even used as The Flash in the recent video game Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe.

 

[protocida]

I don't agree with you, Kevin. Jay Garrick was really important for Barry, indirectly. It was thanks to the Flash comic books that Barry learned what meant to be a hero and took his name of. Jay is definetly more important than Max Mercury or Johnny Quick, as you compared. I alredy said my vision:

Barry Allen (mid-20s) as the Flash. Wally West (16s) as Barry's nephew, but not as Kid Flash (Yet). Jay Garrick (Mid-60s) as Barry's "mentor", in a role similar to Alan Scott in "Green Lantern" (They could even nod to the Justice Society of America, connecting Hal and Barry's movies).

 

[Lane & Kent]

Hey Kevin just wondering, I know this is the Flash thread but who is your top pick for Hal.

 

[tyler-durden]

They need to make a flash animated movie and then they'll see how much potential he has as a franchise and maybe he could get his movie rolling. If Wonder woman and Green Lantern are getting one, I see no reason the flash shouldn't get one.

 

[Lane & Kent]

They need to make a flash animated movie and then they'll see how much potential he has as a franchise and maybe he could get his movie rolling. If Wonder woman and Green Lantern are getting one, I see no reason the flash shouldn't get one.

Agreed.

 

[Lane & Kent]

Scott Porter is The Flash!

 

[Kevin Smith]

Thanks Kevin

P.S The second Flash: Rebirth #1 cover is AMAZING!!!!! Thank you for sharing Kevin.

Anytime, bro.

One thing about NF tho: I don't know why Barry's eyes are brown in some scenes, there's supposed to be blue.

 

[Kevin Smith]

I'd be surprised if Waid didn't like Barry to some degree. IMO he is just more focused on Wally since that was the Flash in his run. I've heard in interviews he sees himself in Wally so that may be a factor, as well. He definitely overcame this in the last few years with those mini-series.

Agreed, altho I've heard Waid make some rather derogatory comments about Barry before once or twice in interviews, I don't think he dislikes him (I hope he doesn't anyway).

Those really opened my eyes to Barry's potential.

Cool. :-D

You should definitely pick up New Frontier (if you feel like it). There's SO much great stuff in the book that was left out in the movie (some that should've been in there, IMO, but couldn't due to time restraints).

 

[Kevin Smith]

I don't agree with you, Kevin. Jay Garrick was really important for Barry, indirectly.

He is important but he isn't nearly as important to Barry as Barry is to Wally.

It was thanks to the Flash comic books that Barry learned what meant to be a hero and took his name of.

While Barry's sense of right and wrong came from much more than just comic books, he did take his name from The Flash comics with Jay.

But he doesn't have powers because of Jay, isn't related to Jay, doesn't fight crime cuz of Jay, didn't take Jay's place, etc.

Jay is definetly more important than Max Mercury or Johnny Quick, as you compared. I alredy said my vision:

Barry Allen (mid-20s) as the Flash. Wally West (16s) as Barry's nephew, but not as Kid Flash (Yet). Jay Garrick (Mid-60s) as Barry's "mentor", in a role similar to Alan Scott in "Green Lantern" (They could even nod to the Justice Society of America, connecting Hal and Barry's movies).

That's cool, but Jay wasn't quite Barry's "mentor" in the way Barry was Wally's. He didn't wasn't trained by Jay, Jay wasn't there to help him when he was first starting out, in the silver age stories, he met with Jay probably on an average of 2-3 times a year or so I think.

But I'm all for getting as many "easter eggs" into The Flash film (and all DC films for that matter) as they can - having Jay there in the background as an "old man" standing by later revealed at the end of the film (a la Alan Scott in GL) or in some other form of cameo would be awesome. And a teen Wally showing up would be great as well. Even verbal references are good.