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The Official Mitt Romney Thread III

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Two wrongs don't make it right, it simply makes it really wrong.

This kind of debate is so childish....it reminds me of,

"Well she did it first" mentality.

It is amazing.

Perhaps, but its easier to be sympathetic to people who are more consistent in their complaints.

If you have a group of people who care only about their own rights, but not the rights of others, how is that sympathetic? That just seems selfish.

If conservatives complain that "Obama is trampling the constitution" and yet praised the Patriot Act and all the other unconstitutional things the neo conservatives did or even just gloss over those the GOP did, doesn't come off as extremely hypocritical? That's why I find this talk of Obama trampling the constitution somewhat tedious, because of many of the people who say this, did nothing when Bush did worse.

This goes back to the original comment that said "it was sad that Obama was re-elected, because he will trample the constitution." How do when know the GOP won't trample the constitution when elected when they choose to do so for most of the Bush Administration? That's why I didn't like that comment, it came off as a double standard.
 
Perhaps, but its easier to be sympathetic to people who are more consistent in their complaints.

If you have a group of people who care only about their own rights, but not the rights of others, how is that sympathetic? That just seems selfish.

If conservatives complain that "Obama is trampling the constitution" and yet praised the Patriot Act and all the other unconstitutional things the neo conservatives did or even just gloss over those the GOP did, doesn't come off as extremely hypocritical? That's why I find this talk of Obama trampling the constitution somewhat tedious, because of many of the people who say this, did nothing when Bush did worse.

This goes back to the original comment that said "it was sad that Obama was re-elected, because he will trample the constitution." How do when know the GOP won't trample the constitution when elected when they choose to do so for most of the Bush Administration? That's why I didn't like that comment, it came off as a double standard.


Well, here is how I look at it...it is "fact" that Bush trampled on the Constitution....and it is "fact" that Obama trampled on the constitution. So therefore, I see it as they both are wrong, and it doesn't really matter to me who is *****ing about it Democrats or Republicans. It's wrong...plain and simple. So I refer back to my post.... :yay:
 
Well, here is how I look at it...it is "fact" that Bush trampled on the Constitution....and it is "fact" that Obama trampled on the constitution. So therefore, I see it as they both are wrong, and it doesn't really matter to me who is *****ing about it Democrats or Republicans. It's wrong...plain and simple. So I refer back to my post.... :yay:

Again I am not issue with that, I don't like the fact that Obama was continued many of the policies that Bush put into the place, which I see as unconstitutional.

My problem is legitimate criticism of Obama gets buried in illegitimate criticism, that Obama is a Muslim, Kenyan, Socialist or that he is "Stalin without the bloodshed" or some other non sense. That is the problem, the legitimate criticism has gotten buried by the fever dreams of Glenn Beck. So when someone says "I am sad that Obama won because he will trample the Constitution" I feel the need to ask follow up questions on such a broad statement. I think some of the criticism of Obama is unreasonable and unfair, so a board statement like that does need a follow up, IMO.

My other problem is conservatives often seem to have convenient amnesia, where they forget about the big government and unconstitutional Obama will be continuing many of Bush's unconstitutional policies, but who put them there in the first place, who set the precedent? How many of the same conservatives who complain that Obama trampling cheered when Bush put these precedents in place?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, I think many conservatives have to look into a mirror and see what they did in regards to the size of government and support for Bush's unconstitutional actions. They should complain about Obama after they have done their own soul searching, reflecting on themselves rather then just blaming Obama for everything. Otherwise this akin to a morbidly obese person telling someone else they have to lose weight, it may be a good message, but the nature of messenger undermines it.
 
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That was definitely wrong of the Bishops of the Catholic Church to do, no question. But that doesn't mean they should also violate something else that they regard as sinful.

Exactly. But, from the Church's point of view, the government is currently trying to assert their authority in their walls because they see the government telling them that they aren't allowed to practice what they preach with regards to the HHS mandate stating birth control must be provided in insurance plans. And they believe that if the government can go against the clause "congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]" over this, then it opens the door for the government to dictate to the Catholic Church and other religions on how practice their religions in other matters.

Well, shouldn't the church just mandate it's employees can't use contraception? If it's such a big issue, they shouldn't employ people who use it, solves the problem, it's an unusable part of their insurance plan. I mean, if they are paying the person and that person uses their paycheck on contraception the church is responsible for that mortal sin, they gave that person the money to buy the contraception.
 
Again I am not issue with that, I don't like the fact that Obama was continued many of the policies that Bush put into the place, which I see as unconstitutional.

My problem is legitimate criticism of Obama gets buried in illegitimate criticism, that Obama is a Muslim, Kenyan, Socialist or that he is "Stalin without the bloodshed" or some other non sense. That is the problem, the legitimate criticism has gotten buried by the fever dreams of Glenn Beck. So when someone says "I am sad that Obama won because he will trample the Constitution" I feel the need to ask follow up questions on such a broad statement. I think some of the criticism of Obama is unreasonable and unfair, so a board statement like that does need a follow up, IMO.

My other problem is conservatives often seem to have convenient amnesia, where they forget about the big government and unconstitutional Obama will be continuing many of Bush's unconstitutional policies, but who put them there in the first place, who set the precedent? How many of the same conservatives who complain that Obama trampling cheered when Bush put these precedents in place?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, I think many conservatives have to look into a mirror and see what they did in regards to the size of government and support for Bush's unconstitutional actions. They should complain about Obama after they have done their own soul searching, reflecting on themselves rather then just blaming Obama for everything. Otherwise this akin to a morbidly obese person telling someone else they have to lose weight, it may be a good message, but the nature of messenger undermines it.

Well hell TO......that's politics. It stinks.... :yay:
 
Okay if the GOP and conservatives suggested that Obama is the worst President ever, what is say about the fact that Mitt Romney and the GOP couldn't defeat him?
 
But you forget there is a SECOND part to the First Amendment when it comes to religion: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

That's the part Catholics are saying is what makes the HHS Mandate unconstitutional--because it's the Federal Government demanding that Catholic schools, hospitals, charities, etc. must, by force of law, provide artificial contraceptives and abortifaciants as part of their health plans, even though the Church says that doing so is a grave sin. It's telling them they are not allowed to practice what they believe, i.e. "prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Your arrogance is surprisingly palpable. I wonder if you understand all parts of the First Amendment, specifically when it states that "Congress shall make no law concerning religion of the obstruction thereof..." Seeing as the Catholic Church teaches against the use of contraception, forcing Catholic institutions to provide for something it SPECIFICALLY TEACHES AGAINST sounds like violating that Amendment...hm. Maybe you should read the Constitution?

Care to try again?

You both have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "free exercise of religion" means. No part of the law prevents Catholics from practicing their religion. Their religion says, "Don't take birth control" (or so they believe; the Bible is surprisingly silent on birth control pills). They are still free to not take birth control, and they are still free to tell people not to take it (even though 95% of their women do), therefore they can still practice their religion.

If we used your model of the 1st Amendment, the church could say, "It's against our religion to have fire exits, because fires are a part of God's plan," and the state would not be allowed to make them have fire exits in their churches.

If Congress said, "All women must take the pill," that would be a 1st Amendment issue. That is not what's happening.

That's not what's happening. It's not the church they're forcing, it's the insurance companies.
Care to try again?

Also this.

If you have such a problem with this, maybe you should take it up with the 95% of Catholic women who want birth control?
 
I don't think so; the Clintons are more popular right now than at any point post 1998. In 2004, nobody was excited at the idea of McCain running in 2008. #Hillary2016 is already trending. She will disappoint a lot of people if she doesnt run. She is more liked and respected now than in20078. Hillary would be the first woman President. Her candidacy would far different than it was in 2008 and than McCains was. What is funny the 2016 Republican field, with Paul Ryan, Marco Rubio, John Thune, etc is almost certainly going to be younger than the 2016 Democratic field. I think a better comparison for a potential Hillary 2016 campaign is George H.W. Bush in 1988, to be frank.

Ryan, Jindal, and especially Rubio honestly cannot win. For all the appeal of Rubio on paper, the guy is a tea partier. A tea partier will never win a general election, especially with popular former President's Obama and Bill Clinton campaigning hard. That is the Republicans problem. Obama won because he was a "movement" guy. The tea party stands for ideals which mainstream America will never accept. Ryan will be a much more formidable candidate than Rubio for that simple fact. Even if Rubio would likely win Florida, his standing in the remaining swing states would be quite weak.

Obama's reelection is certainly evidence that Bill Clinton's influence is extremely high. Clinton gave Obama the post debate bounce. Obama will more than likely be viewed more favorably in 2016 than he was in 2012. These 2 guys will almost assure Hillary wins should she run in 2016. Young people don't just vote for other young people. The past 6 years have seen the younger vote only increasing for the Democratic candidate - this generation is just about lost to the modern day republicans.

I think the 2016 Democratic field will be quite predictable. If Hillary runs, I think you will see few other democrats come in to really challenge her. If she doesn't run, the female NY senator, Sherrod Brown, Deval Patrick, Joe Biden would all possible names. Tough to know who to favor. I think Hillary easily wins the nomination if she runs, though.

Republicans, it is Christie, Jindal, Rubio, Ryan, and a few others. Rubio's charisma is overrated (he is seriously nothing special at all), and he is a tea partier. Jindal is the same. Ryan, you can see the future but his views may be too conservative. Chris Christie is the probably the best bet. I see the primary season being long and drawn out, again.

TBH, a Ryan/Christie ticket is probably the Republicans best bet. They both seem very fit for the roles. I would bet it is Clinton vs. Ryan in 2016, with Hillary winning. Doubt she loses in 2020 either. The economy would be due for a drop around 2024, PERHAPS the republicans will have changed enough by then to really compete.

Personally, I don't agree with Ryan being the best bet, let alone being less polarizing. He might as well be a tea party candidate, he's pretty far right. I'm not just talking about the Ryan plan either. His abortion stances are about as far out there as Akin, and Mourdoch's by a lot of accounts.

On top of that, he added next to nothing to the Romney ticket. Some of that was because he was leashed, but look at things like his soup kitchen photo op, or how he couldn't even beat (as Paradox puts it) tickle me Biden in a debate. Personally, I think betting everything on Ryan next time will lead to another loss.

The Republicans need more center, fresh blood. They don't need to keep running the same hard right guys over, and over. Ryan is definitely not remotely center. Christie, IMO, would be a good VP pick for whoever gets the presidential challenger role though.
 
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Ryan is still an unknown, and is one of the few Republicans who does not come across like a complete *******. Rubio comes across as arrogant, it is a legitimate problem when you watch him in interviews. Ryan has that W. Bush thing going on; he seems like a normal, decent guy who is not totally out of touch. Campaign as a numbers/budget genius who is moderate on social issues? He is young, telegenic, fairly well spoken, and somewhat well known. He is their best bet. Highly highly doubt he would beat Hillary, but a "young guns" Ryan/Christie would inspire about as many new GOP voters as is possible.
 
Ryan is still an unknown, and is one of the few Republicans who does not come across like a complete *******. Rubio comes across as arrogant, it is a legitimate problem when you watch him in interviews. Ryan has that W. Bush thing going on; he seems like a normal, decent guy who is not totally out of touch. Campaign as a numbers/budget genius who is moderate on social issues? He is young, telegenic, fairly well spoken, and somewhat well known. He is their best bet. Highly highly doubt he would beat Hillary, but a "young guns" Ryan/Christie would inspire about as many new GOP voters as is possible.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Ryan's first entry into the public spotlight was to introduce a plan that divided half the country. Then he became the VP of a losing campaign, and added nothing while there. I followed the election, and you know what I pops into mind when I think of Ryan's contribution to the election cycle? Soup kitchen, and losing a debate to a rude Biden.

Ryan may be young, but he's just the same thing repackaged. He's every bit as far right as a lot of tea party members. Putting the party behind him isn't what the Republicans need going forward. They need someone more center, less polarizing, and less hardcore right.

When did Romney gain steam? When he became moderate Mitt during the 1st debate. Ryan doesn't have that in him, he's no where near moderate. The reason I'm against it, is because I want to see a stronger Republican party. I don't want them to run the same type of candidate over and over. Right now, I can honestly say, I won't vote Ryan. I dislike his politics more than Romney's, and I didn't vote Romney. If the Republican party is going to restructure, and start winning again, going back to the old formula isn't the answer.
 
Ryan gonna troll Obama hard come the fiscal cliff situation. So get used to him now.
 
We'll see. Ryans the only one who has proposed actual spending cuts, He will remain very relevant for a while.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Ryan's first entry into the public spotlight was to introduce a plan that divided half the country. Then he became the VP of a losing campaign, and added nothing while there. I followed the election, and you know what I pops into mind when I think of Ryan's contribution to the election cycle? Soup kitchen, and losing a debate to a rude Biden.

Ryan may be young, but he's just the same thing repackaged. He's every bit as far right as a lot of tea party members. Putting the party behind him isn't what the Republicans need going forward. They need someone more center, less polarizing, and less hardcore right.

When did Romney gain steam? When he became moderate Mitt during the 1st debate. Ryan doesn't have that in him, he's no where near moderate. The reason I'm against it, is because I want to see a stronger Republican party. I don't want them to run the same type of candidate over and over. Right now, I can honestly say, I won't vote Ryan. I dislike his politics more than Romney's, and I didn't vote Romney. If the Republican party is going to restructure, and start winning again, going back to the old formula isn't the answer.

Romney only got momentum because Obama let him back in the game. If O shows up in debate 1, Mitt never gets momentum.
 
Romney only got momentum because Obama let him back in the game. If O shows up in debate 1, Mitt never gets momentum.

If you look at the polls, Romney was starting to inch back in before the debates. The debates helped but I think people underestimate how much him starting to outspend Obama in Sept/Oct helped
 
If you look at the polls, Romney was starting to inch back in before the debates. The debates helped but I think people underestimate how much him starting to outspend Obama in Sept/Oct helped

It was moreso Obama's convention bounce going away, and the race resuming the tightess it had in July and August.
 
You both have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "free exercise of religion" means. No part of the law prevents Catholics from practicing their religion. Their religion says, "Don't take birth control" (or so they believe; the Bible is surprisingly silent on birth control pills). They are still free to not take birth control, and they are still free to tell people not to take it (even though 95% of their women do), therefore they can still practice their religion.

If we used your model of the 1st Amendment, the church could say, "It's against our religion to have fire exits, because fires are a part of God's plan," and the state would not be allowed to make them have fire exits in their churches.

If Congress said, "All women must take the pill," that would be a 1st Amendment issue. That is not what's happening.

You are correct in saying that the HHS Mandate isn't forcing people to take birth control pills or contraceptives against their will. However, this is anon sequitur because the Catholic Church and those against the mandate have never argued that this is what the HHS mandate will do. What they argued is that by forcing Catholic based insurance companies and Catholic schools, hospitals, and charities who are self-insured to pay for and allow access to artificial birth control, contraceptives, and abortifacients, they are forcing them to provide the means and opportunity to potentially commit what the Church believes to be a grave and mortal sin. And, according to the Catholic Church, if you provide the ways and means to allow someone to commit what you believe is a grave and mortal sin--even if that person doesn't actually go through with it--then you are an accessory and are just as guilty of committing a grave and mortal sin.

Second, you're also correct in saying there's no mention of birth control pills in the Bible. There's also no mention of human cloning, in-virto fertilization, stem cell research, evolution, the possibility of life on other planets, global warming, Nuclear disarmament, etc. But the Catholic Church have still weighed in on these issues because they believe that that Bible isn't the sole authority on forming Church doctrine.

Likewise, citing the fact that 95% of Catholic Women use some form of birth control doesn't mean that the Catholic Church is just going to placate on this, especially if they sincerely believe that using artificial contraceptives and abortifacients is wrong. Also, if that many women are practicing birth control, doesn't that automatically suggest it's already widely available and affordable without the help of the federal government or the HHS mandate?

Finally, the fire escape analogy is a false equivalency. Aside from the fact that no religion, as far as I know, has ever stated such a thing, providing a service, like a fire escape, wouldn't be seen as wrong according the Catholic Church because it's being used to save lives and is in perfect compliance with a law that doesn't violate the tenants of their beliefs. Proving the means and access to birth control is wrong, according to the Catholic Church, because it potentially leads people astray to violate what the Church teaches.

Also this.

If you have such a problem with this, maybe you should take it up with the 95% of Catholic women who want birth control?

Yes, the law states that insurance companies must provide for those services, but there are some insurance companies who are exclusively Catholic in their practices and there are Catholic schools, hospitals and charities, etc. that are self-insured. Meaning that the Catholic Church would still be indirectly paying for artificial contraception and birth control under the mandate.
 
I'm pretty positive that Ryan will use these upcoming four years to raise his profile as much as possible, so he can position himself as his party's presidential candidate. Without Obama (due to his term limit), I'm sure they think the field is wide open and ripe for the taking.
 
The Catholic church is so out of touch with reality...

95% of their women use birth control. Probably more, since that's a self-reported number.

They'd rather have thousands of people die from AIDS than birth control.

Healthcare mandates should be left up to people of science, not (supposedly) abstinent male clergy.
 
Well, shouldn't the church just mandate it's employees can't use contraception? If it's such a big issue, they shouldn't employ people who use it, solves the problem, it's an unusable part of their insurance plan. I mean, if they are paying the person and that person uses their paycheck on contraception the church is responsible for that mortal sin, they gave that person the money to buy the contraception.

With regard to that last part, no, they wouldn't because the Catholic Church or the Catholic Institution the person works for is not the one who is actually buying the contraception in that example. That person is exercising their own free will to spend their paycheck how they choose. Granted, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, want they are doing they would regarded as wrong, but in the end, it's that person's responsibility, guided by their own free will and conscience, whether or not they want to buy it. That's the point.
 
The Catholic church is so out of touch with reality...

95% of their women use birth control. Probably more, since that's a self-reported number.

They'd rather have thousands of people die from AIDS than birth control.

Healthcare mandates should be left up to people of science, not (supposedly) abstinent male clergy.

Again, if they believe something is morally wrong, they are not going to waver on that regardless of the day to day consensus. Can't exactly fault them for expecting their parishioners to try and make an effort to "follow the rules."

And no, they wouldn't rather people die from AIDS than use birth control, that's just a ridiculous assertion. If anything, they would say the best way to avoid AIDS is to practice abstinence, especially if one is unmarried, which, is a very pretty hard discipline to maintain to say the least but not entirely impossible. Furthermore, a hospital run by the Catholic Church would go out of their way to help a person dying of HIV and AIDS, as they would believe it would be morally irresponsible to refuse to help someone dying or suffering.

And finally, those Health Care mandates are actually being left up to people in government, which is the main concern those opposed to the mandate actually have.
 
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Catholicism and moral responsibility, that's a good one.

But seriously, talk to Pope John Paul II.

As for the mandate, with all due respect, tough.
 
Catholicism and moral responsibility, that's a good one.

But seriously, talk to Pope John Paul II.

As for the mandate, with all due respect, tough.

So, are you saying as long as the government states it's in the public's interest, the hell with "Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise [of one's religion]?"
 
Let's be clear, the mandate requires insurance companies to provide the option. Not the Catholic Church.

It's quite a stretch of the imagination to call that infringing on religious liberties.
 
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