The Official Mitt Romney Thread III

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Let's be clear, the mandate requires insurance companies to provide the option. Not the Catholic Church.

It's quite a stretch of the imagination to call that infringing on religious liberties.

Yes, in terms of how the law is written, that is indeed true. However, there are Catholic and religious schools, hospitals, and charities run by their Church organizations which are self-insured, i.e they don't hire an outside private health insurance company. Which means that, technically, they still would be paying for birth control and contraception provisions in those cases. That's where the legal complications and potential Constitutional issues lie.
 
I'm torn on the whole health care and organized religion thing. On one hand, I feel no sympathy for orga used religion, which has done its fair share to try to stomp all over the 1st amendment by imposing their morality on the rest of us.

On the other hand, I also dont believe that the government should be imposing themselves upon religion.

All I can say is this... People can be, and are, punished for negligence if they fail to provide medical attention to people if it goes against their religion. I.e. Parents who deny their children certain medical attention because its against their religion.

Maybe if the church is against these forms of medical attention, they shouldn't be in the business of providing medical attention?

I mean, seriously, being in the business of providing medical attention, and then complaining that you have to provide medical attention that goes against your religion is like me complaining about Christianity, going to church and then complaining that the preacher was imposing his biblical values upon me.

This is also a perfect argument -against- leaving medical coverage to the private sector. I dont want -my- medical coverage to be dictated by another person's morality and religion.
 
You are correct in saying that the HHS Mandate isn't forcing people to take birth control pills or contraceptives against their will. However, this is anon sequitur because the Catholic Church and those against the mandate have never argued that this is what the HHS mandate will do. What they argued is that by forcing Catholic based insurance companies and Catholic schools, hospitals, and charities who are self-insured to pay for and allow access to artificial birth control, contraceptives, and abortifacients, they are forcing them to provide the means and opportunity to potentially commit what the Church believes to be a grave and mortal sin. And, according to the Catholic Church, if you provide the ways and means to allow someone to commit what you believe is a grave and mortal sin--even if that person doesn't actually go through with it--then you are an accessory and are just as guilty of committing a grave and mortal sin.

But don't you see how that line of logic would give the Catholic church (or any church) infinite power? If a church's insurance provider provides sleep aid to employees, aren't they providing the means to potentially commit the mortal sin of sloth? After all, sleep aids can be highly addictive. If they pay employees, aren't they potentially providing the means to commit the mortal sin of greed? Your line of reasoning just doesn't work in reality. You're picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to enforce.

Second, you're also correct in saying there's no mention of birth control pills in the Bible. There's also no mention of human cloning, in-virto fertilization, stem cell research, evolution, the possibility of life on other planets, global warming, Nuclear disarmament, etc. But the Catholic Church have still weighed in on these issues because they believe that that Bible isn't the sole authority on forming Church doctrine.

But if you're saying, "This is our dogma. It's sacred and you can't step all over it," you can't base that indignation on something that's not in the "holy" text.

Likewise, citing the fact that 95% of Catholic Women use some form of birth control doesn't mean that the Catholic Church is just going to placate on this, especially if they sincerely believe that using artificial contraceptives and abortifacients is wrong. Also, if that many women are practicing birth control, doesn't that automatically suggest it's already widely available and affordable without the help of the federal government or the HHS mandate?

But again, you're saying, "This is our religion. This is what we believe and that's why it's so important," but clearly it's not what you believe. Because "you" refers to all Catholics, and if nearly half of your people are using it, plus the implicit or explicit approval of their partners, then clearly you don't practice what you preach. And again, if you want to rely on the "It's so important to us" argument, you can't use that argument if the majority of your people don't practice it.

Have you ever bought birth control pill/had a partner buy it? Without insurance, it's unreasonably expensive. Hundreds of dollars per month. Condoms can be provided free by some universities/schools, but that does little for most adults.

Finally, the fire escape analogy is a false equivalency. Aside from the fact that no religion, as far as I know, has ever stated such a thing, providing a service, like a fire escape, wouldn't be seen as wrong according the Catholic Church because it's being used to save lives and is in perfect compliance with a law that doesn't violate the tenants of their beliefs. Proving the means and access to birth control is wrong, according to the Catholic Church, because it potentially leads people astray to violate what the Church teaches.

Yes, the law states that insurance companies must provide for those services, but there are some insurance companies who are exclusively Catholic in their practices and there are Catholic schools, hospitals and charities, etc. that are self-insured. Meaning that the Catholic Church would still be indirectly paying for artificial contraception and birth control under the mandate.

At the core, you just don't live in the same reality as I do. Your own people use it. You cannot speak out of both sides of your mouth as a church and claim an exception to a health and safety regulation on account of something that your own people don't abide by.

And make no mistake, birth control is a public health issue. Unwanted pregnancies are bad for the mother, the children, the economy and the health care system.

I know that some people live in a fairy tale world where no one ever has pre-marital sex and no one ever has an unplanned pregnancy, but that is not the world we live in. Asking these women to carry these children to term is cruel to both the mother and the child. Kids born to such circumstances are statistically more likely to have rough lives, lives filled with crime, violence and substance abuse. The whole country suffers when archaic "moral" codes are forced upon people that don't want them.

The church can cry victim all it wants. They're already being given tax benefits that normal employers are not given. They openly engage in political activities that they shouldn't. Now they want to deny basic health care to their employees because it goes against some extra-Biblical rules that the church made up and they don't follow? Yeah right.
 
Apparently Mitt is going to go find jobs for all his campaign staffers.
 

I don't understand how that is "his" gaffe, all candidates have those types of things ready to go, they already have a fairly solid transition staff in place etc....seems to me, someone simply uploaded the wrong site. So what?

Jesus people, give the guy a break....he's lost, no need to carry on the "look how stupid Romney is...." Obama won, seems to me its time to look "forward" to what we have in store....
 
I don't understand how that is "his" gaffe, all candidates have those types of things ready to go, they already have a fairly solid transition staff in place etc....seems to me, someone simply uploaded the wrong site. So what?

Jesus people, give the guy a break....he's lost, no need to carry on the "look how stupid Romney is...." Obama won, seems to me its time to look "forward" to what we have in store....
I'm not seeing anything wrong either. To me, it's just more piling on and a little bit of "spiking the football" by the winning side.
 
But don't you see how that line of logic would give the Catholic church (or any church) infinite power? If a church's insurance provider provides sleep aid to employees, aren't they providing the means to potentially commit the mortal sin of sloth? After all, sleep aids can be highly addictive. If they pay employees, aren't they potentially providing the means to commit the mortal sin of greed? Your line of reasoning just doesn't work in reality. You're picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to enforce.

With all due respect, those are rather faulty analogies. If someone genuinely has a sleeping disorder, then prescribing sleeping pills would be seen as a legitimate and proper use in order to treat that person's difficulty sleeping. That's not encouraging sloth whatsoever. If someone actually abused sleeping pills and also were using them without a prescription, then that's a different story because they are potentially doing bodily harm to themselves. And paying an employee a salary so they can have the ways and means to provide for themselves and their family is a form of greed? That's a new one.

But if you're saying, "This is our dogma. It's sacred and you can't step all over it," you can't base that indignation on something that's not in the "holy" text.

Unlike Protestants, Catholics do not believe in the concept sola scriptura, i.e. that the Bible is the sole authority when it comes to God's will. They regard it as a "divinely inspired text" which, along with other writings and "sacred tradition," the practices handed down starting with Jesus' ministry. Now you might ask what gives a bunch of priests and bishops the right to interpret the Bible, but the explanation for this is they are considered the spiritual descendants of the original twelve apostles. The common analogy is that they are shepherds who have a responsibility and duty to look after their flock and make sure they don't wander away and get lost. They believe (and history has borne this out) that if the Bible is the sole authority and open to interpretation, then that creates all kinds of chaos and conflict.

They also distinguish tradition and dogma, in that tradition can change but dogma cannot. For example, it used be tradition that priest could be married, until it was decided centuries ago that priests must be celibate, believing this was the best way to serve God. That, however, could change (and there are in fact some priests who are married). However, in the case of say abortion, that's dogma which cannot change according to the church, as they regard it as akin to infanticide and thus a violation of the fifth commandment. ("Thou Shall not Kill" is considered to be the 5th Commandment in Catholic and Anglican churches).

But again, you're saying, "This is our religion. This is what we believe and that's why it's so important," but clearly it's not what you believe. Because "you" refers to all Catholics, and if nearly half of your people are using it, plus the implicit or explicit approval of their partners, then clearly you don't practice what you preach. And again, if you want to rely on the "It's so important to us" argument, you can't use that argument if the majority of your people don't practice it.

Ah, but you're making a common misconception: just because someone believes they are in the right doesn't automatically make it so. Yes, there are Catholics (some of which include those who don't regularly attend Church services and lapsed Catholics who still identify themselves as Catholic) that do not follow the Catholic's church's teaching when it comes to using artificial contraceptives; but that doesn't automatically mean the rules with regard to artificial contraception change. Nor does it change the concept that, if the Federal Government can dictate to a Church how they must practice their faith with regards to this, then they are free to dictate to Church on how they must practice their faith in order matters which their parishioners may take more seriously.

Have you ever bought birth control pill/had a partner buy it? Without insurance, it's unreasonably expensive. Hundreds of dollars per month. Condoms can be provided free by some universities/schools, but that does little for most adults.

It depends on what birth control method you use and how often you use it. According to Planned Parenthood's website, Birth Control Pills, while requiring a prescription, cost between $15 to $50 a month. An IUD, on the other hand, costs $500 to $1,000 dollars up front but can last for up to 12 years. Deprovera costs $35 to $75 per injection in addition to the $20 and $40 exam fee, but each shot lasts up to 3 months.

At the core, you just don't live in the same reality as I do. Your own people use it. You cannot speak out of both sides of your mouth as a church and claim an exception to a health and safety regulation on account of something that your own people don't abide by.

And make no mistake, birth control is a public health issue. Unwanted pregnancies are bad for the mother, the children, the economy and the health care system.

I know that some people live in a fairy tale world where no one ever has pre-marital sex and no one ever has an unplanned pregnancy, but that is not the world we live in. Asking these women to carry these children to term is cruel to both the mother and the child. Kids born to such circumstances are statistically more likely to have rough lives, lives filled with crime, violence and substance abuse. The whole country suffers when archaic "moral" codes are forced upon people that don't want them.

The church can cry victim all it wants. They're already being given tax benefits that normal employers are not given. They openly engage in political activities that they shouldn't. Now they want to deny basic health care to their employees because it goes against some extra-Biblical rules that the church made up and they don't follow? Yeah right.

No one is blind to the fact that we live in an imperfect world and that, on occasion people fail to live up to certain standards. We are all human beings, after all who are perfectly capable of making mistakes. But that doesn't automatically mean one should abandon those standards that they try to live up to. And again, just because someone may disagree with something doesn't automatically mean they are in the right. For example, and while not exactly comparable, 200 years ago, it was considered perfectly okay for people to own other human beings and treat them as property, even though a minority opinion disagreed. 100 years ago, it was believed and supposedly backed by science, that white people were genetically superior to other races, even though a minority opinion at the time disagreed. In other words, public opinion is not the same thing as truth.

Now, you are correct in saying that unwanted pregnancies can lead to problems or make life more difficult for the mother, the children, their way of life, health care, etc. But, and I know you may not like hearing this, but one way that is recommended to avoid this--and not just from Catholics or religious people--is to practice abstinence, or wait until you find the right person to have sex with, usually the person you marry. Because, even though birth control does reduce the chances of getting pregnant, there is still the possibility of getting pregnant regardless of what kind of birth control you use. Because, in the case mammals (which we human beings are) sex=kids, and the more often you have it, the greater your chances are of becoming pregnant. Yes, not waiting to have sex is generally the ideal, and yes, people do fail to live up that ideal, and no one should condemn them for it. But that doesn't automatically mean that ideal should be abandoned entirely.

Also, no one is forcing someone to join a Church. We are free in this country to belong to any religion of our choosing or no religion at all. But it is usually common knowledge that if one decides to belong to a Church, they is expected to abide by it's rules, doctrines and disciplines, just like any organization you choose to belong to that has it's own rules, guidelines, and disciplines.

And even though you may complain about Churches and religious organizations getting tax exemptions and how their parishioners and clergy are not practicing what they preach, it doesn't change what the 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Which means that while government cannot favor or officially adopt a specific religion, nether can they force a religion to practice their faith in a particular way. In other words, we are not a theocracy and Washington D.C. is not Rome, Jerusalem, or Mecca.
 
I don't understand how that is "his" gaffe, all candidates have those types of things ready to go, they already have a fairly solid transition staff in place etc....seems to me, someone simply uploaded the wrong site. So what?

Jesus people, give the guy a break....he's lost, no need to carry on the "look how stupid Romney is...." Obama won, seems to me its time to look "forward" to what we have in store....

It just shows how hilariously overconfident and out of touch they were.
 
It just shows how hilariously overconfident and out of touch they were.

I don't see it as any different than this:

patriots2.jpg


They were probably just prepared for the event that he were elected. And they didn't get it fixed in time.

Big whoop.

There's plenty to go at Romney about. Let's not nitpick inconsequential things to make him look bad.
 
It just shows how hilariously overconfident and out of touch they were.

No it doesn't, all this shows is that even after the race you can't get out of the mode of "let's find every detail we can to throw one last piece of **** at Romney"....kinda sad.
 
I'm not seeing anything wrong either. To me, it's just more piling on and a little bit of "spiking the football" by the winning side.

Meh, the winning side can spike the football....not a biggie on that, it has just become a habit with some to scour the earth for Romney screw ups to post them here and point....lol Romney will become a distant memory soon enough....And they will get back to their usual Republican whipping boys....
 
I don't think Romney is a bad guy or had an ounce of confidence more than he needs to have as a viable candidate.

Out of touch...Republicans are responding to the loss by openly branding minorities and women as if they are mere objects. It is all the same thing. They have an extremely unattractive attitude. It isn't about doing what is morally right & even supports their values; it's "we need to do this to win elections". It is so phony. Branding them all together so simply is hilarious and quasi offensive to people who think they are so easy to win over. As in, "oh, they wont care about flip flopping views whch make us untrustworthy! say we like policies they support, its that simple! They will view us differently, then!".

Yeah, no. They need a completely new approach if they ever hope to win again. Republicans approach the problem with close minded views in most peoples eyes. When dems and independents see Mitt, see Rubio, see just about any republican, they see someone who firmly believes they are already right. As if they had something to lose by merely listening to what anothr side had to say. It is close minded. Regardless of positions, thats how they come across. They wont ever win like this. Regardless of anything, the people trust that Obama will listen, and that is not something you see on a resume, it is a certain type of personality which makes people feel this when they see it. Clinton had this, W. Bush had this, Reagan had this. Shockingly, Romney, Kerry, Dole, Dukakis, all lacked in this regard.

I mean it, there are very, very few people from the 2016 republican field I think will be competitive against Hillary. If Hillary runs, she might top 400 votes. The demographics are only getting worse for GOP.

Frankly, I kind of feel sorry for Romney. He personally changed a lot in order to meet the conservative bill, too bad it cost him the election. If Mitt Romney of 2012 ran as the same guy from 2003; if he made no excuses for who he was or how he felt...he very well may have won. Instead, he altered his views to meet conservative demands which would never allow him to win anyway.
 
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I just like to say, if Obama or Romney invited me to play some basketball with them, I would...and wear my Gary Johnson 2012 shirt while playing.

-_- I would go in for a lay up, but get ''tripped'' by secret service. Just ask NBA players...
 
Oh heck yeah if the President called I would answer....
 
I don't think Romney is a bad guy or had an ounce of confidence more than he needs to have as a viable candidate.

Out of touch...Republicans are responding to the loss by openly branding minorities and women as if they are mere objects. It is all the same thing. They have an extremely unattractive attitude. It isn't about doing what is morally right & even supports their values; it's "we need to do this to win elections". It is so phony. Branding them all together so simply is hilarious and quasi offensive to people who think they are so easy to win over. As in, "oh, they wont care about flip flopping views whch make us untrustworthy! say we like policies they support, its that simple! They will view us differently, then!".

Yeah, no. They need a completely new approach if they ever hope to win again. Republicans approach the problem with close minded views in most peoples eyes. When dems and independents see Mitt, see Rubio, see just about any republican, they see someone who firmly believes they are already right. As if they had something to lose by merely listening to what anothr side had to say. It is close minded. Regardless of positions, thats how they come across. They wont ever win like this. Regardless of anything, the people trust that Obama will listen, and that is not something you see on a resume, it is a certain type of personality which makes people feel this when they see it. Clinton had this, W. Bush had this, Reagan had this. Shockingly, Romney, Kerry, Dole, Dukakis, all lacked in this regard.

I mean it, there are very, very few people from the 2016 republican field I think will be competitive against Hillary. If Hillary runs, she might top 400 votes. The demographics are only getting worse for GOP.

Frankly, I kind of feel sorry for Romney. He personally changed a lot in order to meet the conservative bill, too bad it cost him the election. If Mitt Romney of 2012 ran as the same guy from 2003; if he made no excuses for who he was or how he felt...he very well may have won. Instead, he altered his views to meet conservative demands which would never allow him to win anyway.

On top of that if Obama/Axelrod team leaves there ground campaign infrastructure in tact, It'll be damn near impossible for any Republican to win in 2016. If Hillary decides to run in 2016 it will be even worst than 2012 because they'll be able recreate the Historic atmosphere that existed in 2008. Then on top of that the Republican Candidate who ever they maybe will have to deal with two former Democratic presidents actively on the campaign trail. They won't have any notable support in that regard. John McCain and Mitt Romney are lack luster. George W Bush is toxic. George H W Bush is irreverent. The republican's need a Bill Clinton like figure who can come in and rebrand the party. They also need to be able to communicate with people on a personal level.
 
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Regarding the religious institutions following the rule of law of the country. If you, the religious institution, get a tax exemption from the government then you need to follow whatever law of the land. If you have problems with the laws then all you need to do is give up your tax exemption status and not follow the law(s) you oppose.

People should read writings of the Framers regarding religion and its status in America. It's a stark difference than the views people have today.

On a side note, if the teabaggers really wanted to follow the Constitution and the vision of the Framers then they would be in for a shock at what they find. That's assuming they actually read and comprehend the documents of our founding.
 
Regarding the religious institutions following the rule of law of the country. If you, the religious institution, get a tax exemption from the government then you need to follow whatever law of the land. If you have problems with the laws then all you need to do is give up your tax exemption status and not follow the law(s) you oppose.

People should read writings of the Framers regarding religion and its status in America. It's a stark difference than the views people have today.

On a side note, if the teabaggers really wanted to follow the Constitution and the vision of the Framers then they would be in for a shock at what they find. That's assuming they actually read and comprehend the documents of our founding.

You mean those that follow the ideology of the Tea Party? People can very differently interpret the constitution, it happens all the time.
 
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