The Official Superman-Batman Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'DC Comics' started by Aristotle, Feb 21, 2008.

  1. Aristotle Registered

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    Searched for one, looked on all three pages, couldn't find it, so I made one.

    Starting with Issue 46...

    Wow, **** the what? The Oblivion Bar shows up on radar now, even though it's a pocket dimension? I mean, I know there's an ENTRANCE in Gotham City, and I can even accept that Batman would know about it. But how does his radar pick up what's inside of it? It's a pocket dimension!

    I'll chalk up Superman's weirdness to part of the story, since it clearly seems to be intended that way, but what's this crap about Batman not believing in magic? Green clearly doesn't give a **** about continuity, or character history, or character development. First he ****ed up the Joker (and Batman) in his BatCon arc. Now he's ****ing Batman up again by making him an obtuse unbeliever in magic and anything supernatural, even though Batman KNOWS AND WORKS WITH MAGICAL BEINGS. On a somewhat regular basis. He just teamed up with Zatanna not too long ago. He lost a piece of his MIND to Zatanna. He was STANDING IN A BAR FULL OF MAGES. He doesn't believe in magic? WTF is this ****?

    But I'll tell you what beats all: the new color of kryptonite, this vaunted new [blackout]silver kryptonite[/blackout], you know what it turns out to do? [blackout]It gets Superman really stoned. No, seriously, that's what it does. He thinks the Justice League, which thanks to Green's lazy writing includes a corporeal Red Tornado, look like cartoon characters, and he thinks it's "never too late for breakfast." I've been stoned, I've been on mushrooms, and magic-silver-K apparently just puts Superman somewhere between stoned on some diggity-dank and tripping on shrooms.[/blackout]

    Once again, we get Green trying to toss out name-checks like Dinosaur Island and the Oblivion Bar (in BatCon it was Harley Quinn) to make himself look like a credible writer, when in reality he's lazy, doesn't do research, and doesn't appear to care about the characters nearly as much as he cares about making a fast buck off them.

    And then, of course, just like in BatCon, the horribly trite ending to every issue. [blackout]This issue, Superman finally comes to sympathize with the lowlies who foolishly use drugs--"I can finally understand why some people need an escape."[/blackout] Of course, he spares a little good-natured ribbing for his old grumpyguts friend Batman: "...well, except you, Bruce." Batman is now serving his old 1990s purpose of making the star of the book look nicer, more heroic, and more decent by comparison...IN A BOOK HE'S SUPPOSED TO COSTAR IN.

    Honestly, people need to stop approaching this as a book that allows them to redefine Batman, Superman, and the World's Finest Hetero Life-Mates. That worked for the first arc or two, but Loeb stopped trying that because it was time for the book to start working on its own. And creative team after creative team just keeps trying to duplicate the magic of those early issues, instead of making their own. The series usually remains good and fully readable (even under Green's hideous guidance), but creators need to stop thinking they can have The Big Superman-Batman Moment, and DC needs to stop thinking this is Legends of the Dark Knight, and give it a consistent creative team for a couple of arcs.
     
  2. Arkady Rossovich Registered

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    I remember reading along the time when Supergirl was re-introduced. I know,a long time ago. What ever happened?
     
  3. Aristotle Registered

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    Mostly disconnected arcs. It's almost like Legends of the Dark Knight+Superman, but more directly tied to continuity than LotDK (the real LotDK) was.
     
  4. Darthphere Kneel before 'Drox!

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    So in essence, you created this thread, to ***** about it.
     
  5. CLARKY Registered

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    Well, I found this arc pretty interesting. I dropped the book, and now I'm back online. I find it good. I found the part with Supes dreaming really weird and not really great.
    But I think, sorry Aristotle, that Green gives a good depiction of Superman and Batman. For once!, at least! someone who doesn't write Supes as a naiv and useless character. God, that is good. And for Batman, I find his depiction very subtle, extremely subtle ; He's dark, mysterious, yet sensitive and ready to help his friend. Very precise, and IMO very good.
    But I'm in disagreement with you about batman and magic. Batman has been a bastard for a decade now, he hates what he can't control nor understand, and I find that this anti-magic behaviour is just in continuity with his badass small-minded attitude that he had for a decade or so. Yet Green doesn't write him as a stupid anti-magic character, but with more subtility.
    I think his depiction of Batman was good, and I loved the part with Batman saying "I'm no god, I'm a man." Haaaa! At least, at least !!! The bat God is no more, long live the bat-man. Hey.
     
  6. Aristotle Registered

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    Superman's never been a naive and useless character. Superman just believes in good, and he's the ultimate hero. There are some who would call that naive and useless. I call it what makes Superman great, and I do not appreciate writers who try to make him into something else. Regardless, I don't actually blame Green for it; he was making a point, in the story, which justified Superman's strange behavior.

    Just before Infinite Crisis, in the Batman book, Jason Todd, the second Robin, who had been murdered by the Joker, came back to life. It became clear to Batman what had happened. He went around asking all the resurrected people he was friends with (Ollie Queen, Superman, etc.) about it. He asked Zatanna and Jason Blood--BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD WITH MAGIC. That was his reasoning. Well, actually, with Zatanna, he just wanted a chance to get a dig in at her about wiping his mind, but with Blood, he wanted to get help from a magically adept individual, and he even spoke in the language and syntax of magic. He clearly accepted that magic exists in the DCU.

    Says the guy who buys comics so he can ***** about them on the internet?
     
  7. Darthphere Kneel before 'Drox!

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    That statement was facetious. Come on, give me more credit.
     
  8. CLARKY Registered

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    Oh come one, Aristotle ; When Supes is with Bat, Superman is generally considered as a big loser and Batman as the unbeatable-super-genius-bat-god. I love Superman and keep thinking he has a big potential. It's just that I don't see many writers exploring his potential. Especially when the two of them are together. Superman is always the weak link.
    I know who Jason Todd is, but as you said yourself he wanted to meet people who had already "lived" a resurection or talk with people who know what these unnatural things work. And I didn't find it was an acceptation of the magic but more an understanding of what happened. He's the kind of guy who can explain why and how the Lazarus Pit works. Besides, he's surrounding by Kryptonian, thanagarian, etc ... technologies able to do incredible things ; So no, I don't think he accepted magic at all.
     
  9. Aristotle Registered

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    I've never felt that way. My first real experience with the modern incarnation of the World's Finest Team was Jeph Loeb's early Superman-Batman comics. Here was a man who had delved into what makes both of these characters the finest in comics, with Superman For All Seasons and Long Halloween/Dark Victory, putting together what he knew from those experiences to do the same thing for the World's Finest. And he succeeded. It was Loeb's writing in For All Seasons and Superman-Batman that convinced me to like Superman. And I'll be darned but today, even though Batman will always be my favorite character, I believe so much more in Superman as a hero, and as an icon, and as an inspiration. Superman is who all superheroes should be. Jeph Loeb knew how to say that, and so have many of the people who have written the two together. The best Superman-Batman-teamup writing will always show what makes both characters indispensable to the pairing. And that can be done WITHOUT making Superman "dark and driven."

    Bruce may believe that magic is simply another kind of science, but he believes that it exists. It's been done to him (mindwipe), so he has to. This might sound like semantic arguing, but there is a big difference between believing that magic is just another kind of science, and saying "I don't believe in magic, you're dumb if you do, and I respect you less for it," which is kind of what Bats does in Green's latest issue.
     
  10. CLARKY Registered

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    Indeed, I found Jeph Loeb's first WF story arc was pretty bad! That was really not as good as S: for all Seasons or Dark Victory. It was more "I'm a farm boy but naiv and my pal bat is always a victim of misunderstanding".
    I would dare to talk about the following arc, but that was the first time I was deceived by Jeph Loeb.Let's say I found it "OK". Not more. And I agree with you at some point, J.Leob portrayed Supes as an icon, but let him prisoner of this condition ; Superman is not only an icon. Recently he seems to be trapped in this term.
    Can't he be a little dark sometimes ? And above all, can't he be driven ? Is it the quality of Batman only ?
    No I disagree. He says "I don't believe in magic", not "you're dumb if you do". And Mindwipe is not magic. Batman himself knows how to work on his own memory, mind tricks, spirituality, etc, ...
    I don't think he believes that it exists, I think he just faces it and don't know how to understand it. It's more a refusal, what I felt Green was expressing.
    Now, I understand that, even if batman refuses it, he try to open his mind when someone he loves come back to life.
     
  11. Darthphere Kneel before 'Drox!

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    I think it was a stupid piece of dialogue in an otherwise good issue. Now, if it becomes a recurring thing other than just some throwaway lines then we can start our ***** campaign.
     
  12. Aristotle Registered

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    The whole issue just stank to high heaven of all the hallmarks of what made his BatCon arc despicable. Next issue, it'll turn out that before a hideous chemical accident, kryptonite was a one-dimensional assassin named Jack.
     
  13. The Leaguer Registered

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    This new dude is pretty good. I'm actually excited for S/B again.
     
  14. GoldenAgeHero Registered

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    transformers got owned!!!
     
  15. Darthphere Kneel before 'Drox!

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    Well it seems you've already made up your mind on his writing long before Superman/Batman so he's seem to be fighting an uphill battle to you.
     
  16. Aristotle Registered

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    I was very suspicious going in, but it's Batman so I decided to give him a shot, and you know, the first couple issues were great. This one just put me right back how I felt about Batcon, though. I'll give the rest of the arc a shot, and I'm sure there's a good possibility that they won't piss me off like this one did.

    I still think he's going for too much of a Big Iconic Moment, which is the problem all the S-B writers have had since Loeb.
     
  17. BrianWilly Disciple of Whedon

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    This last issue was pretty great. Not pretty awesome, because what the hell Batman doesn't believe in magic?...but pretty damn great nonetheless.

    Because it hasn't been seen nearly enough!...

    [​IMG]
     
  18. LadyVader Smile like you mean it.

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    Wow, this book still around? :)
     
  19. sethcohen still beats hal...

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    this book is officially drizzopped
     
  20. Darthphere Kneel before 'Drox!

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    Terrible decision.
     
  21. sethcohen still beats hal...

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    ¿Por qué?
     
  22. Darthphere Kneel before 'Drox!

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  23. sethcohen still beats hal...

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    well sir, i must respectfully disagree with you.
     
  24. SenseiofCheese has been expecting you.

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    If going from a cool battle with Aquaman while on a hunt to destroy every remnant of Krypton on Earth to an arc finisher where Superman gets stoned off his ass isn't just the strangest yet most compelling thing I've seen recently, I don't know what.
     
  25. Aristotle Registered

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    It's not an arc finisher. There's two more issues.
     

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