The Official Superman-Batman Discussion Thread

[Docker2.0]

This issue, to me, read like an ideological conflict between the Marvel Universe and the DCU. On the one side is Superman, who is basically trustworthiness incarnate. He's almost never given anyone a reason to distrust him, and when he has, there's always Batman and a kryptonite ring to stop him. The World's Finest Team are the greatest heroes, in any fiction, of the last 100 years.

On the other side is the mistrust that seems intrinsic to the MU. "There ain't no good guys," Amanda Waller's sneer seems to say. This is the grim'n'gritty realism that Marvel and Dark Knight Returns finally succeeded in forcing onto comics in the 1980s. This is what made a Civil War happen in the MU. This is why the X-Men are doomed to live in a world that hates and fears them. The MU is realistic (which is why I don't like it as much.)

Unsurprisingly, DC's Truth, Justice, and the American Way triumph. The outcome assures us that mistrust achieves nothing. Compared to unbending ethics and strength of spirit, postmodern gray morals have no chance. Now, in the real world, that probably isn't true. But it sure is nice to see somebody else who wishes it was.

Great post! It's exactly the reason I plan to get out of Marvel comics, there are no good guys! I'm just waiting on Final Crisis to be over.

 

[Hush]

Couple things:

1. It's super weird to see Superman/Batman being actually a good comic. I mean it happened for like six entire issues and then never again yet here it is all of a sudden being a comic I actually like and want to read more of.

2. "Lexcorp"? Last I checked in Lex Luthor was a crazy fugitive who had swapped his company for a green battlesuit? If someone could fill in the gaps for me between there and here that'd be great.

Well I think the Lexcorp thing is just that these weapons are just now being found they were made a while ago obviously so really not that big of a stretch.

 

[The Eagle Host]

2. "Lexcorp"? Last I checked in Lex Luthor was a crazy fugitive who had swapped his company for a green battlesuit? If someone could fill in the gaps for me between there and here that'd be great.

Doesn't mean Lexcorp stopped existing.

 

[fifthfiend]

I thought there was some deal where Talia bankrupted the company and sold off the offices and suchlike.

Eh, maybe I misread, maybe it just got Crisis'd out. Whatevs.

 

[The Eagle Host]

I don't think so, last I heard Lana Lang was head of Lexcorp (from Busiek's run, I think).

 

[javi1024]

Great post! It's exactly the reason I plan to get out of Marvel comics, there are no good guys! I'm just waiting on Final Crisis to be over.

what does Final Crisis have to do with quitting Marvel?

and you know DC had 3-4 years where the heroes couldnt trust each other either- Identity Crisis. and when have you seen Captain America go AWOL and destroy his beliefs in America?

 

[The Eagle Host]

I would imagine his idea is that it's easier to get into DC after everything has settle down rather than right in the middle of things.

3 to 4 years? There was less than a year between the end of Identity Crisis and the beginning of Infinite Crisis, which resolved any lingering trust issues. And none of them held a candle to the trust issues faced at Marvel.

 

[The Major]

No I disagree. He says "I don't believe in magic", not "you're dumb if you do". And Mindwipe is not magic. Batman himself knows how to work on his own memory, mind tricks, spirituality, etc, ...

Magic is merely a means for a specific effect. Science can do similar things its just from a different power source.

Look at super-strength for example. WW and Captain Marvel has it only its from a magic medium while Superman gets his from alien biology. Technology an allow beings like Luthor to get it from armor while there are cyborgs which can get it like Silver Swan.

A mindwipe can be created from either technology, cosmic beings or magic just like super-strength.

After all Batman has seen in his world it shouldn't be a huge leap for him to know magic could do it IMO. He'd at least believe it would be possible from a magic source.

I don't think he believes that it exists, I think he just faces it and don't know how to understand it. It's more a refusal, what I felt Green was expressing.

Say you're right, then he thinks Etrigan/Jason Blood, Zantanna, the Marvels and WW are lying when they talk about how their powers work and origins. That's not even touching beings like Neron and the thousand of other magic characters in the DCU he's met or heard about.

Now, I understand that, even if batman refuses it, he try to open his mind when someone he loves come back to life.

That's contradictory. If Batman refuses to believe something he isn't "open his mind to it" he's shutting the door on considering the idea possible.

 

[CLARKY]

Well, I think the last issue rocks. As I said before, I think this kryptonite-Doomsday is a clever idea. I think doomsday is a very stupid and useless character aside from being the guy who "killed" superman.
Nevertheless, I think the end of the story was really short!! Waller saying "OK, you shut up and I give you the kryptonite, like nothing happend" ; that was short cut !! Same for the Doomsday guy, powerful, fast, strong giant fight, big adversary ...... "oh stop here comes mommy and dad!" WTF ? Couldn't they have spend a little more time on what happens ? Same thing for the last line turning their back on Waller very very fast !!
Anyway, the way Clark's fighting Doomsday is pretty good. I've said it before, "at last!At last! Someone who knows how to write Superman in a clever way." I think Michael Green does a very good job and the book. For the World's finest team, I would say it's about time. Same thing for the art, I like it pretty much, I think it fits perfectly for the book.

 

[stargazer]

^^I agree with a lot of what you said, Clarky. I hope that this creative team stays on this book for a long time. I also love the art, especially the way Davis draws Supes and Bats; I can't stop staring at it, lol. And yes, I even like the S on the belt. Another thing that I enjoy a lot is the dialogues and self-talk that Supes and Bats have. Cool and smart.

Long live the World's Finest superheros:

 

[javi1024]

I would imagine his idea is that it's easier to get into DC after everything has settle down rather than right in the middle of things.

3 to 4 years? There was less than a year between the end of Identity Crisis and the beginning of Infinite Crisis, which resolved any lingering trust issues. And none of them held a candle to the trust issues faced at Marvel.

well you could include all that stuff with Mary Marvel, Ray Palmer and Donna Troys little crew, but yes that stuff doesn't compare to whats been going on in the MU. but it can be said that the events like Avengers Disassembled, Secret War, Civil War, and now Secret Invasion are all the cause of the mistrust which Bendis has been orchestrating since 2003-2004.

 

[Marvin]

this book is good again....after loeb went crazy about 8 issues in, i'm surprised to be enjoying it once more

who is this artist tho...he's like Lee lite

"you came back from the dead...she didn't"
-crazy soldier

"I'm sorry about your wife, I did my best that day"
-superman

damn you singer

 

[javi1024]

i was really disappointed in this story's ending. [BLACKOUT]Toyman just happens to build millions of these bugs that clean up kryptonite?[/BLACKOUT]thats the definition of deus ex machina. but i did enjoy Superman and Lana's talk, and the final page.

 

[Motown Marvel]

this was a great arc. the only sore spot was that

Spoiler

toyman involvement

in the last issue. that was just really ****ing weak! but is almost forgivable since the greater focus was on the internal conflicts, rather than the physical conflicts. but still, that part was really weak. everything else was really awesome though. this is a great creative team that i hope sticks around on this title for a while. this book deserves great teams.

who is this artist tho...he's like Lee lite

he's way better than lee in almost every way.

 

[Darthphere]

Shane Davis.

 

[baerrtt]

what does Final Crisis have to do with quitting Marvel?

and you know DC had 3-4 years where the heroes couldnt trust each other either- Identity Crisis. and when have you seen Captain America go AWOL and destroy his beliefs in America?

The difference is DC wanted to get back to it's heroes acting like heroes again. That's why all the Crisis stuff (and the storylines it led to) was created. Marvel appear to be doing the same thing but given that the MU has always been inherently darker (something Joe Q seems to be insisting on) I ponder if after SECRET INVASION there'll be a true change in relationships between the Marvel heroes.

As for Cap going AWOL and renouncing his beliefs, one word: Nomad. Wiki it.

 

[CLARKY]

The last issue of "K" was excellent! I found things excellent. Well, and some very weak as well.
I enjoy Superman & Lana talk, that was pretty good even if I kept wondering what the hell is she thinking ?!? Clark is her best friend!!
I didn't buy Lana's bluff, I was sure she wouldn't have done it! Well, I was pretty wrong about that ! WOW. Good surprise ! One of the things I loved the most was Superman's determination ; for once, he was not kneeling while facing a no-solution problem, and I think it's about time to see that !! I've said it and I say it again, I like the portrayal of Superman in this story-arc. At last, at last someone who writes him cleverly. When I saw the different kryptonite places blown away, I was stunned! I was "wow, this is a great idea, I wonder how they are going to fix it this time". Well .... 2 minutes later, if wasn't a problem anymore!!! I think there was a room for a second & great story with the kryptonite atmosphere. that was clever, but come on ; Toy man has the solution in 1 sec it's over ?!?! WTF ???
The best of this issue was the last talk between Clark & Lana, I found it excellent.Truely excellent. I was not sure to appreciate Lana's behaviour, but at the end, I appreciated the fact that she had changed ...... very cool .... until I see the "you did perfect" . Oh no! she was controlled or something. Please.
Overall, I think the writer have excellent ideas, but he doesn't take the time to explore them. Too bad. Anyway, I hope the creativ team is here to stay I enjoy the book again!

 

[javi1024]

The last issue of "K" was excellent! I found things excellent. Well, and some very weak as well.
I enjoy Superman & Lana talk, that was pretty good even if I kept wondering what the hell is she thinking ?!? Clark is her best friend!!
I didn't buy Lana's bluff, I was sure she wouldn't have done it! Well, I was pretty wrong about that ! WOW. Good surprise ! One of the things I loved the most was Superman's determination ; for once, he was not kneeling while facing a no-solution problem, and I think it's about time to see that !! I've said it and I say it again, I like the portrayal of Superman in this story-arc. At last, at last someone who writes him cleverly. When I saw the different kryptonite places blown away, I was stunned! I was "wow, this is a great idea, I wonder how they are going to fix it this time". Well .... 2 minutes later, if wasn't a problem anymore!!! I think there was a room for a second & great story with the kryptonite atmosphere. that was clever, but come on ; Toy man has the solution in 1 sec it's over ?!?! WTF ???
The best of this issue was the last talk between Clark & Lana, I found it excellent.Truely excellent. I was not sure to appreciate Lana's behaviour, but at the end, I appreciated the fact that she had changed ...... very cool .... until I see the "you did perfect" . Oh no! she was controlled or something. Please.
Overall, I think the writer have excellent ideas, but he doesn't take the time to explore them. Too bad. Anyway, I hope the creativ team is here to stay I enjoy the book again!

i agree, i enjoyed the arc alot. but Toyman? what a cop out!

 

[Hush]

Great last issue to K great story and Shane Davis must stay I love the style he does also being jim lee lite isnt that bad. Toyman was a cop out but hey who cares it made sense since he was involved very early on.

 

[Aristotle]

As for Cap going AWOL and renouncing his beliefs, one word: Nomad. Wiki it.

How has nobody mentioned the first issue of Civil War yet? Cap going AWOL is exactly what he did, and while he didn't renounce his belief in America, he did go to war with America, which is noteworthy.

 

[Aristotle]

i agree, i enjoyed the arc alot. but Toyman? what a cop out!

Well, he's just a fake robot now, after the Terrible Toyman issue of Action. All the rest of the Toymen being robots, I was fine with, but why did they have to ruin him? He was kind of fun.

 

[stargazer]

this was a great arc. the only sore spot was that

Spoiler

toyman involvement

in the last issue. that was just really ****ing weak! but is almost forgivable since the greater focus was on the internal conflicts, rather than the physical conflicts. but still, that part was really weak. everything else was really awesome though. this is a great creative team that i hope sticks around on this title for a while. this book deserves great teams.


he's way better than lee in almost every way.

Agreed. LOVED this arc as well, and the art by Shane Davis, OMG, awesome.

Great last issue to K great story and Shane Davis must stay I love the style he does also being jim lee lite isnt that bad. Toyman was a cop out but hey who cares it made sense since he was involved very early on.

I like him much more than Jim Lee.

 

[javi1024]

Well, he's just a fake robot now, after the Terrible Toyman issue of Action. All the rest of the Toymen being robots, I was fine with, but why did they have to ruin him? He was kind of fun.

oh really! that i didnt know.

 

[Hush]

I like him much more than Jim Lee.

I think Jim does much better action pieces ecspecially Splash pages. I lone Shane but Jim Lee is the master of crosshatching.

 

[Aristotle]

well you could include all that stuff with Mary Marvel, Ray Palmer and Donna Troys little crew, but yes that stuff doesn't compare to whats been going on in the MU. but it can be said that the events like Avengers Disassembled, Secret War, Civil War, and now Secret Invasion are all the cause of the mistrust which Bendis has been orchestrating since 2003-2004.

I don't believe that Bendis was orchestrating anything. On the one hand, he likes to play it up like he's had this master plan from the beginning, but on the other hand, he's also on record as saying that he never thought he'd be allowed to do another big event. He said something like, "I figured you only get one each," or something to that effect.