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The Official Superman Thread - Part 5

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I'm wondering to myself if there is some sort of trick to these reveals, that these changes aren't permanent or are "story specific" like Compi716 above suggested. I mean the majority of the reveals just seem terrible it makes me wonder how DC could ok those designs.

Also with Superman having already had a bit of redesign to his costume not long ago it would seem a little weird for him to go back to the lazy casual look as a sort of costume. The whole situation seems a little bizarre.
 
I love me some t-shirt and jeans Superman. Like the old school S. Miss the cape, though.

I hope he's written the way he was in Morrison's early run, which was very refreshing.
 
The new outfit looks like a "street clothes" bonus skin for a video game or something.
 
- The newsroom of the Daily Planet kept him grounded by surrounding him with more human colleagues and peers. When you have someone like Superman surrounded by other heroes in the pages of Justice League, it balances him out when he has a more normal human supporting cast in the Planet. This was not a statement on the number of bloggers vs journalists walking around the world. I live in NYC which is one of the biggest cities in the world and plenty of people walk around or ride the subways reading newspapers on a daily basis.

Well it's a good thing characters like Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen still have a presence in his books then. You act like him not working at the Planet excludes him from having a supporting cast. Including traditional members associated with the Planet.

I have lived in NYC my entire life. I take the train 5 times a week in the evenings and in the morning. More often than not I see people perusing through their tablets, e-readers and mobile phones not newspapers. Print media has been dying a slow death for over a decade now.

- Superman/Lois Lane dynamic has endured for 75 years. Obviously there's a reason for that. There's a balance to that relationship and Lois humanizes Clark in a way that Diana just can't. I don't mind seeing Clark/Diana in Elseworlds and Alt. Universes because they are small sample what if type scenarios but on a regular basis it just feels like Fan Fic.

Except for when he has dated Lana Lang or Lori Lemaris. I like Lois & Clark. I also don't consider it the be all end all especially when it got so stale during the marriage that it often became quite the crutch for mediocre storytelling.

Clark Kent doesn't need any further "humanizing" the Kents already covered all those bases with their upbringing. Lois and Clark works because they balance each other out but again it is not necessary. He actually teaches her quite a few things about humanity which is ironic considering the point you were trying to make. Not really the other way around.

I have over 25 years worth of comics with that status quo repeated ad naseum across different Earths, timelines and continuities. If I want my fix of that I could just look through my long boxes.

Wonder Woman and Superman is not only something fresh which is always welcome but it also has actually worked. I have seen nothing wrong with the execution of that relationship. Most certainly not to the point that I'm dying to see them revert to a played out status quo anyway.


- No one is talking about millions of young adult orphans. Superman is already an orphan by virtue of Jor-El sending him to Earth in the first place. To orphan him a second time is a bit overkill wouldn't ya say?

I'm talking about millions of young adult orphans because that's a very relatable element with millions of potential Superman readers across the world. Which was the point against the claim that it dehumanizes him. So again I ask how does that dehumanize him?

Also no I wouldn't call it overkill.

Especially since it's something that is a part of the background within hundreds of the greatest Superman stories ever told.

Superman has over 50 years of publicized fiction where he didn't have the Kents holding his hand cause they were six feet under and all those stories functioned perfectly fine that way.

It's a status quo that has been evident in the majority of the stories and history of the character. It is more "real" to the Superman concept across it's history than still having the Kents playing roles in his present adult life has been.

Like the odd 25 years where he was a farmboy who had to frequently visit mommy and daddy all the time until in the end he also eventually lost one of them anyway.

The Kents being alive does nothing in Superman stories but take away "screen time" from things that may need more of it. It also ends up coming across as redundant because we already see the effects of the Kents on Kal-El not just through his actions as Superman but also as Clark Kent.

Clark Kent of course being the greatest gift that they ever gave to him. Which is a fact that even holds more weight when they're not around. Since it's something that he will always embrace because their absence makes it even that more special and evident.

Superman's stories resonate just as well from a humane standpoint when he is looking to uphold his parents legacy. He doesn't only need them as a shoulder in Smallville to cry on every now and then. We don't need to see them constantly rehammer the same points Superman and Clarks actions actually make just to justify their appearance in a comic book.


- At the end of the day, the things above were tools used to make Clark more human and grounded. Taking away all of these different things make him feel more disconnected from the rest of humanity...

At the end of the day there are still numerous elements present in the stories that keep Clark "more human and grounded". Superman doesn't need to depend on crutches. That's a big reason why he lost so many fans over the years in the first place.


But again, obviously DC figured something was wrong with the aesthetic look when they've changed the look 4 different times in 3 1/2 years.

This statement confuses me. What has stuck around for so long? It's only been 3 1/2 years and Superman has had a revolving door of talent on the title.

...and again just because they change the aesthetics with frequency doesn't mean they keep "changing" things across the board. It has indeed been 3 1/2 years with dozens of creators involved and guess what? in that time all the same fundamentals have remained intact & the same canon has been respected and adhered to by all those different writers. Not retconned which is what "a change" is in this context. That's exactly my point.

Yes Superman's sales have declined and drastically since the relaunch. Don't take my opinion though, here are the actual numbers from 3 years before the New 52 vs the numbers in the 3 years after. () denotes the listing for the month

Action Comics
Jan '09 - 51,925 (20)
Jan '10 - 30,768 (62)
Jan '11 - 32,194 (36)
Jan '12 - 105,088 (3)
Jan '13 - 58,645 (26)
Jan '14 - 36,042 (48)
Jan '15 - 35,180 (48)

Superman
Jan '09 - 48,475 (25)
Jan '10 - 31,940 (62)
Jan '11 - 32,194 (23)
Jan '12 - 73,719 (7)
Jan '13 - 50,631 (33)
Jan '14 - 35,266 (49)
Jan '15 - Couldn't find data

And no not every other comic has taken a hit. Batman is consistently selling over 100K issues and a top 3 title. The cold hard numbers show Batman from Jan '14 out selling Superman 115,492 copies to 35,266 and in Jan '13 outselling 145,923 to 50,631 shows the market place is there. Its the interest that's not.

Fair enough but nobody sells over 100,000 except for heroes the majority of people are most familiar with like Batman, X-Men and now The Avengers. Superman hasn't been a hot seller on that level since the early 90s. The 90s!!!

Hell just 6 years ago 100,000 wasn't the gold standard it was more around 200,000. The industry sales for floppies keep declining across the board because the direct market is a very outdated concept.

Especially since most people who may be interested don't have a local comic shop around. This is why trades sell much better than floppies in general. Also why digital has gained so much footing these past few years. It still isn't enough to fully recover the industry sales decline though.

In order for that to happen the direct sales market concept as well as pricing will need a massive overhaul altogether. But I digress.

You're acting as if his current numbers are inconsistent. It seems like when you remove speculators and bandwagon buyers there is a core 30,000 people who stick with Superman's books no matter what. This is who I'm speaking of when I say obviously the people who buy the books month in an out don't seem to mind the current status quo because if they did those books will average much less than 30,000 units.
 
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I can't complain too much about Superman's casual new "costume" when he's standing next to Wonder Woman's atrocity.
 
Well well, seems like people regret complaining about the new 52 suit:D

I do like the Overall look of Clark here, but the costume is no real costume.
There is nothing wrong with giving him a actual costume, i thought the idea of costumes was, to make heroes look like more then just ordinary people.
Something others can look up to and stuff.

Whatever happens with superman, i hope that at least they finally end the whole Superman(Wonder Woman crap.

Its now the third or fourth time they tried it, and not once ive seen people like it.
Maybe im in the wrong forums and sites, but nobody liked or talked about it much.
The idea alone is stupid...they are the exact opposite in alternative universes...that says enough.

But other then that, in supermans case im actually excited for what will happen in the future.
I stopped reading superman since the beginning of new 52, maybe i will pick it up when i drop Batman(if it sucks as i fear)

I wonder how long this after new 52 thing will last...
 
You and I will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this and that's fine. Nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion. I prefer things one way where you prefer it another.

...and again just because they change the aesthetics with frequency doesn't mean they keep "changing" things across the board. It has indeed been 3 1/2 years with dozens of creators involved and guess what? in that time all the same fundamentals have remained intact & the same canon has been respected and adhered to by all those different writers. Not retconned which is what "a change" is in this context. That's exactly my point.

My point was that constant changing of the creative team on the book shows there is a problem. There is no consistency in the writing or the art or the look of the character. That was my point.

Fair enough but nobody sells over 100,000 except for heroes the majority of people are most familiar with like Batman, X-Men and now The Avengers. Superman hasn't been a hot seller on that level since the early 90s. The 90s!!!

You're acting as if his current numbers are inconsistent. It seems like when you remove speculators and bandwagon buyers there is a core 30,000 people who stick with Superman's books no matter what. This is who I'm speaking of when I say obviously the people who buy the books month in an out don't seem to mind the current status quo because if they did those books will average much less than 30,000 units.

How can you say Superman is not a hero that most people are familiar with? That comment baffles me considering Superman is the second most recognizable icon next to Santa Claus around the world? Superman and Batman are regarded as DC's Flagship characters so how do you not see an issue when you feel 30,000 copies is an acceptable average when compared to 125,000 Batman is bringing in?

I never said the numbers were inconsistent, I said they are continually dropping month to month. People are simply not interested in what they've done to the character. It's not because of the market place or interest in comic books in general. The stories are not appealing and the direction they keep taking is dropping more and more interest from a month to month basis.
 
How can you say Superman is not a hero that most people are familiar with?

What I meant was Superman is a complete stranger even to most comic book fans. Sure on a pop culture landscape they superficially know who he is. However they don't really know or understand the lore like they do a Batman or X-Men.

This is why so many people still don't get things most real Superman fans take for granted like the real differences between Clark Kent, Kal-El and Superman. Or they always claim that Superman is "overpowered" and "unrelatable".

That's mostly the fault of DC for really slacking on Superman media outside of comic books for decades in terms of maintaining relevance even with the most casual comic book reader. I mean the most they gave people was 1 animated series almost a decade after his last movie at the time (which was in 1987).

Which is something they never did with Batman or Marvel did with characters like Spider-Man and X-Men. They have had a constant barrage of animated shows, movies and video games assaulting the senses of Joe Casual and the general public for the last 20 years.

Nevertheless Superman hasn't consistently sold books in really large volume since the late 70's and early 80's until the early 90's Death of Superman peak. To expect that to change anytime soon even after over 20 years (meaning a couple of generations missing out on really wanting to know Superman) isn't very realistic.

So with all that considered yeah Superman is the most "familiar" superhero but he certainly is also quite far from the best known even within comic book reader circles.

It sucks that it it is that way but that's just the facts.
 
That's mostly the fault of DC for really slacking on Superman media outside of comic books for decades in terms of maintaining relevance even with the most casual comic book reader. I mean the most they gave people was 1 animated series almost a decade after his last movie at the time (which was in 1987).

Uh, there were two fairly successful live action television series between Superman IV and TAS? Well, one was Superboy, I guess, but it was a young Clark Kent and not a separate character. Really, Superman has been consistently on TV as much as any other comic book character I'm fairly certain.
 
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Uh, there were two fairly successful live action television series between Superman IV and TAS? Well, one was Superboy, I guess, but it was a young Clark Kent and not a separate character. Really, Superman has been consistently on TV as much as any other comic book character I'm fairly certain.

The Superboy series was syndicated and didn't last very long. I remember when it was still on the air. Lois & Clark catered more to women which is why it was on sunday at 8 were it also couldn't really be viewed by a majority potential new gen of kids since they have school and such. I myself used to watch it since I used to go to bed around 11 but I did find it fairly boring.

If it wasn't for STAS and then JL and JLU I don't think the 90's and early 2000's would've done any favors for Superman across media that caters to a vast audience.

I also forgot about Smallville. That's probably the most relevant version of Superman's story to today's general audience and it wasn't one that was even consistently good.

Superman is viewed as kind of a joke still for the most part compared to the likes of Spider-Man, Batman and the X-Men. Like Superman Returns came out and they mostly laughed it off screens and considered it boring and weird.

Then with Man of Steel people always still point out how it "underperformed" financially or how they over analyze it's mediocrity even though it still actually made pretty good money and was fairly received despite all that. He gets no respect.

This affects people's perceptions of what Superman is to the point that most ignore the comic books altogether even if they actually start collecting comic books regularly. You see it every time a new reader pops up in any DC forum on the internet. They always start with Batman comic books. Once upon a time people used to start with Superman and now they don't even consider it.

Hell we live in a world where Iron Man and Thor now have more fans than Superman. That's crazy to me as I remember those characters being obscure at best to most people, including regular comic book readers once upon a time.

WB has a lot of work to do in helping to make Superman truly worthy of his status as the first superhero not just in comic books but also in modern superhero movies that began in the late 70's.

Good luck to them with the DC slate of movies because that is make or break for Superman. He'll be carrying the weight of an entire universe on his shoulders for the first time in live action on the epic scale it needs to be in. If they don't botch this up it could end up being pure magic. I hope it really works out and ends up far evolved from what MOS provided.

When I was a younger kid in the late 80's Superman was the hero in the greater public consciousness then Batman really crept up after 1989. Hasn't stopped since. Since then Superman has had way too many long stop gaps across media compared to Batman and it's hurt his brand significantly.

Most people now approach Superman with reluctance. It's kinda sad to see and probably shouldn't be that way but it is what it is. Hopefully though it could go back to being that a kid could consider Superman the hero once again fairly soon.
 
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Superman is viewed as kind of a joke still for the most part compared to the likes of Spider-Man, Batman and the X-Men. Like Superman Returns came out and they mostly laughed it off screens and considered it boring and weird.

Then with Man of Steel people always still point out how it "underperformed" financially or how they over analyze it's mediocrity even though it still actually made pretty good money and was fairly received despite all that. He gets no respect.

I agree with a majority of this but it falls in line with my statement that DC has really screwed up with their handling of Superman to begin with and it just keeps getting worse as they go on.

Man of Steel was a very decisive movie in terms of how they handled the character in almost every way and there's so many things people can go back and forth on that it's not even worth going into here and that's where I feel DC dropped the ball. Man of Steel should have been the movie to show off their prime hero in all his glory and it's became so decisive that despite what good it did, it was undone by the bad hence you're statement above about underperforming and over analyzed.

This affects people's perceptions of what Superman is to the point that most ignore the comic books altogether even if they actually start collecting comic books regularly. You see it every time a new reader pops up in any DC forum on the internet. They always start with Batman comic books. Once upon a time people used to start with Superman and now they don't even consider it.

You are 100% correct on this but again. This is failure on DC's part. They should have an A-List team handling this book and not a revolving door of talent. It feels like every 4-6 months the solicits advertise a "Brand New Chapter for Superman" Batman went relatively unchanged since the reboot and that served him well as he's consistantly a top 3 book month in and out. They made a ton of changes with Superman, including all the things that were referenced earlier and it's driven away a big portion of that fan base

WB has a lot of work to do in helping to make Superman truly worthy of his status as the first superhero not just in comic books but also in modern superhero movies that began in the late 70's.

It's sad but true and I hope they realize this and bring Superman back to what made him great. Superman is supposed to be hopeful and inspirational. Red and Blue with his cape. He DEFINITELY should NOT be in a t-shirt and jeans like they are currently planning to show him...
 
The Superboy series was syndicated and didn't last very long. I remember when it was still on the air. Lois & Clark catered more to women which is why it was on sunday at 8 were it also couldn't really be viewed by a majority potential new gen of kids since they have school and such. I myself used to watch it since I used to go to bed around 11 but I did find it fairly boring.

Superboy lasted four seasons, and I don't know, you may be right about Lois & Clark, but I know me and most of my friends in school watched it. It was obviously geared towards women, but I recall it being a pretty hot show at the time. I'm not sure what the actual ratings were, though.

If it wasn't for STAS and then JL and JLU I don't think the 90's and early 2000's would've done any favors for Superman across media that caters to a vast audience.

I also forgot about Smallville. That's probably the most relevant version of Superman's story to today's general audience and it wasn't one that was even consistently good.

Superman is viewed as kind of a joke still for the most part compared to the likes of Spider-Man, Batman and the X-Men. Like Superman Returns came out and they mostly laughed it off screens and considered it boring and weird.

Then with Man of Steel people always still point out how it "underperformed" financially or how they over analyze it's mediocrity even though it still actually made pretty good money and was fairly received despite all that. He gets no respect.

This affects people's perceptions of what Superman is to the point that most ignore the comic books altogether even if they actually start collecting comic books regularly. You see it every time a new reader pops up in any DC forum on the internet. They always start with Batman comic books. Once upon a time people used to start with Superman and now they don't even consider it.

Hell we live in a world where Iron Man and Thor now have more fans than Superman. That's crazy to me as I remember those characters being obscure at best to most people, including regular comic book readers once upon a time.

WB has a lot of work to do in helping to make Superman truly worthy of his status as the first superhero not just in comic books but also in modern superhero movies that began in the late 70's.

Good luck to them with the DC slate of movies because that is make or break for Superman. He'll be carrying the weight of an entire universe on his shoulders for the first time in live action on the epic scale it needs to be in. If they don't botch this up it could end up being pure magic. I hope it really works out and ends up far evolved from what MOS provided.

When I was a younger kid in the late 80's Superman was the hero in the greater public consciousness then Batman really crept up after 1989. Hasn't stopped since. Since then Superman has had way too many long stop gaps across media compared to Batman and it's hurt his brand significantly.

Most people now approach Superman with reluctance. It's kinda sad to see and probably shouldn't be that way but it is what it is. Hopefully though it could go back to being that a kid could consider Superman the hero once again fairly soon.

I don't know, I can't say I really agree with a lot of this, but mainly I was just commenting on the idea that Superman was absent from pop culture from the Reeves films to TAS, which is really not true. From the '80s onward, Superman has been on television, at least, in one form or another.
 
http://www.craveonline.com/comics/previews/835569-exclusive-preview-supergirl-40

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^Issue reveals that Maxima is [BLACKOUT]gay[/BLACKOUT].
 
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Anyone read Superman 39? It's superb from a storytelling perspective though unfortunately Romita's art is getting worse with every passing issue. I was tolerating it for a while but I can't do it anymore.
 
I thought artwork was better in 39 than in previous issues. Great read. I wish Babok illustrated a Superman book.
 
I thought artwork was better in 39 than in previous issues. Great read. I wish Babok illustrated a Superman book.
You mean Jason Fabok? Then 100% Yes.
 
Is DC going to make an action figure based on Superman's new look?
 
Which one? Romita's or the capeless casual? Probably, but it depends on how long they stick around I suppose.
 
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Meh, I can't get into the jeans/t-shirt look. It just looks tacky.

I hate it with every fiber of my being. Seriously, Everyone seems to just look worse and worse. Its like their can only be so much DC hero style and the other media have drained it out of the comics.
 
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