The Official WATCHMEN VS TDK Thread

[roach]

Depends what you consider "essential." There's a lot in WATCHMEN that contributes, but isn't of extreme importance. THE BLACK FREIGHTER serves two functions, as I've elaborated before. The first, is to underline the character of Ozymandias. The second, is to juxtapose itself among other events in the story and underline certain comments and details.

But in Snyder's film, THE BLACK FREIGHTER is stripped of that second purpose. It's therefore even less of an important ingredient; underlining Ozymandias' character isn't strictly necessary, since everything we need is already there. In that way, WATCHMEN can and should do without the BLACK FREIGHTER's detours, which in Snyder's film can only be somewhat excessive.

I do, however, think this animated BLACK FREIGHTER makes a contribution to the overall cinematic WATCHMEN experience. As I said, I really enjoyed it. But I think it does that perfectly fine as a separate extra/special feature that ties into the theatrical experience. It doesn't need to be shoehorned into the live action film to work.


Might it be possible that the Director's Cut will have more of the Bernies, but without the BLACK FREIGHTER footage? That's the right way to go about it, if you ask me.


Not a "jarring" departure by any stretch. It was different stylistically, but it still felt like part of the whole. It felt that it belonged to that universe. Thus, TALES OF THE BLACK FREIGHTER should thus have a distinctly different look than what Snyder has produced in live action, but it should also feel as part of that oddly alternate 1985 world. It doesn't.

This BLACK FREIGHTER is sadly not particularly well animated, so it just feels cheaper than Snyder's film. And it's an anime, which doesn't make much sense no matter how you parse it. It's an American pulp pirate comic, after all. Not an anime. So why on earth Snyder then decided it was appropriate to animate it in a Japanese style doesn't make sense to me.

i thought i read somewhere that the black freighter was gonna be in the DC

 

[Agentsands77]

i thought i read somewhere that the black freighter was gonna be in the DC

There's a lot of confusion and mis-reporting on that count. There are three versions of the film; Theatrical Cut, Director's Cut, and Ultimate Cut. Only the last of those will have the BLACK FREIGHTER.

 

[Nivek]

I thought Watchmen was a great Watchmen film, and TDK was a great Batman film. As to which one I would watch more of (right now) probably Watchmen.

 

[Spider-Man '92]

Can't say until I've seen Watchmen 10 times. :P

 

[The Guard]

Your entire post made my hyperbole detector EXPLODE.

My. What a well reasoned, mature response. Care to explain why?

Depends what you consider "essential."

"Essential" is necessary to tell the overall story. Fundamentally necessary to inform the story.

There's a lot in WATCHMEN that contributes, but isn't of extreme importance.

There are not, however, many major elements that are not essential. Even Rorschach's sugar cubes become somewhat essential to the plot in the source material. I should point out, before we go any further, that I thought we were discussing the current cut of WATCHMEN and it's essentialities, not the version with the Black Freighter. The Freighter has never been essential to Watchmen, unless you look at it in terms of whether it's essential to a complete version of Watchmen.

THE BLACK FREIGHTER serves two functions, as I've elaborated before. The first, is to underline the character of Ozymandias. The second, is to juxtapose itself among other events in the story and underline certain comments and details.

But in Snyder's film, THE BLACK FREIGHTER is stripped of that second purpose.

How so? You mean in terms of paralell images/lines?

Might it be possible that the Director's Cut will have more of the Bernies, but without the BLACK FREIGHTER footage? That's the right way to go about it, if you ask me.

Yes. The DC will. The Ultimate DC will feature them and the Freighter.

Not a "jarring" departure by any stretch. It was different stylistically, but it still felt like part of the whole.

There is absolutely nothing about being plunged every few panels into a world of strangely colored pirate lore that feels like part of Watchmen's normal narrative. It's a massive departure, and incredibly jarring in terms of the flow of the story and it's focus.

It felt that it belonged to that universe. Thus, TALES OF THE BLACK FREIGHTER should thus have a distinctly different look than what Snyder has produced in live action, but it should also feel as part of that oddly alternate 1985 world. It doesn't.

In what sense? When you say it doesn't feel like part of Snyder's world, what does that even mean? Is art not a part of the Watchmen world? Wasn't anime around in the 80's?

 

[Agentsands77]

I should point out, before we go any further, that I thought we were discussing the current cut of WATCHMEN and it's essentialities, not the version with the Black Freighter.

Oh, I see. Well there's been a misunderstanding.

As far as I'm concerned, the current cut (the theatrical cut) of WATCHMEN has about everything a cinematic WATCHMEN needs to function. The Director's Cut may well be superior, if only for having a little extra "connective tissue" (as Snyder called it), but I don't find the theatrical cut to be lacking in any significant way.

I'm suggesting that the Ultimate Cut, the one with the BLACK FREIGHTER, will likely be most inferior version of the cinematic WATCHMEN, largely because I don't think the BLACK FREIGHTER will contribute too positively to the cinematic experience.

How so? You mean in terms of paralell images/lines?

Indeed.

There is absolutely nothing about being plunged every few panels into a world of strangely colored pirate lore that feels like part of Watchmen's normal narrative. It's a massive departure, and incredibly jarring in terms of the flow of the story and it's focus.

I don't agree, and we'll leave it at that.

When you say it doesn't feel like part of Snyder's world, what does that even mean?

It means that it doesn't look like a comic that a kid would open in the 1980s. Or even a cartoon that would be produced in the 1980s. And I grant that there should be some leeway there - obviously WATCHMEN's 1980s is not exactly our 1980s - but this doesn't have the slightest flavoring of 1980s animation.

Is art not a part of the Watchmen world? Wasn't anime around in the 80's?

Anime was around in the 80s, but not like it's presented in the BLACK FREIGHTER; the cartoon looks decidedly contemporary. It also looks cheap, so it's not up to the production standard Snyder set for WATCHMEN. I wish it felt more "of the period."

Furthermore, there's no justifiable reason to do it as anime - it's an American pirate comic, after all, and should be styled as, well, a moving American pirate comic. The whole Japanese look of the cartoon adaptation is entirely inappropriate.

 

[PierreS]

The Dark Knight and Watchmen are both great films that revlolutionized the superhero genre.


But the Joker can't pull the same stunt with Rorschach like he did with Batman.

Rorschach would have killed the Joker before he can say, "To them your just a freak, like me."

 

[JAK®]

I've tend to notice that your arguments get muddled up and your point gets lost ALOT. How can...



...be understood any other way if you're NOT SPECIFIC. So yes, when making arguments, be specific not because I speak in absolutes but because i'm not a freakin' mind reader.

And CGI-Fest just means that Watchmen had a lot of CGI. That's the truth, ain't it?

Because taking my comment about Watchmen not being filmed against greenscreen to mean that I am denying any instance where the film used greenscreen is equivalent to you claiming TDK wasn't a CGI animated movie, and me taking it as if you said that there were absolutely no CGI effects in TDK at all.

Are you unaware of the greenscreened movies that have become popular recently? Sky Captain, Sin City, 300, The Spirit?

Watchmen used greenscreen for certain scenes (like any movie with SFX shots) but it wasn't, as a film, shot against greenscreen. 300 was shot against greenscreen.

 

[JL Unlimited]

Because taking my comment about Watchmen not being filmed against greenscreen to mean that I am denying any instance where the film used greenscreen is equivalent to you claiming TDK wasn't a CGI animated movie, and me taking it as if you said that there were absolutely no CGI effects in TDK at all.

Are you unaware of the greenscreened movies that have become popular recently? Sky Captain, Sin City, 300, The Spirit?

Watchmen used greenscreen for certain scenes (like any movie with SFX shots) but it wasn't, as a film, shot against greenscreen. 300 was shot against greenscreen.

I'm not the only one that misunderstood you. Scroll back and check out the last few pages. Are we all mistaken or do you need to be more specific? Hmmm

 

[Twin723]

The Dark Knight and Watchmen are both great films that revlolutionized the superhero genre.


But the Joker can't pull the same stunt with Rorschach like he did with Batman.

Rorschach would have killed the Joker before he can say, "To them your just a freak, like me."

I doubt Watchmen revolutionized the superhero genre.

 

[SuperFerret]

Neither film did.

 

[Daredevil_2003]

Either one would have, but TDK came first so it gets the credit.

 

[PierreS]

Superhero film genre:


Superman 1977 started it all

Batman in 1989 revitalized it

X-men started the modern age

Spiderman capitalized it

Batman Begins and TDK blew it out of the ball park.

Watchmen turned it into art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU02FSndbLY&feature=channel_page

 

[stargazer]

I don't know yet, but I think I liked Watchmen more. I really need to watch both films again (have only watched them both once) to make up my mind. But both movies are very good.

 

[SuperFerret]

I doubt Watchmen revolutionized the superhero genre.

Either one would have, but TDK came first so it gets the credit.

How?

 

[Cmill216]

Mixed reviews and lower-than-predicted box office returns do not equal the revolutionizing of a genre.

 

[Longshot777]

That's commercial success.


You don't have to be a box office hit to be revolutionary.


Ricky Martin has sold more records than Pavarotti but who's the better singer and musician??

 

[Anita18]

That's commercial success.

You don't have to be a box office hit to be revolutionary.

Ricky Martin has sold more records than Pavarotti but who's the better singer and musician??

Ricky Martin and Pavarotti don't work in the same genre despite being both singers, so the comparison isn't really valid. Tesla and Edison would be a better (albeit very geeky) comparison. Everyone knows Edison, but we wouldn't be where we are without Tesla's contributions as well.

Anyway, you're right, you don't have to be a box office hit to be revolutionary. But then you really should do something completely out of the box. The financial success of James Cameron's Avatar has yet to be seen, but I have no doubt that it will be revolutionary, to some degree. In a for-profit business like movies, what makes a shift in the genre is also usually a box office success. Hollywood is formulaic like that.

 

[JAK®]

Mixed reviews and lower-than-predicted box office returns do not equal the revolutionizing of a genre.

Titanic is a better film than The Dark Knight. Money talks, after all

 

[Cmill216]

That's not what I meant. At all.

If someone can explain to me how this movie "revolutionized" the superhero genre, despite the fact that we haven't seen a single film post-Watchmen and thereby can't discern any kind of impact on the genre, I'd love to hear it.

My stance still stands. It's an outrageous and laughable claim to make.

 

[roach]

That's not what I meant. At all.

If someone can explain to me how this movie "revolutionized" the superhero genre, despite the fact that we haven't seen a single film post-Watchmen and thereby can't discern any kind of impact on the genre, I'd love to hear it.

My stance still stands. It's an outrageous and laughable claim to make.

same can be said for TDK as we havent seen any superhero films post TDK

 

[Anita18]

same can be said for TDK as we havent seen any superhero films post TDK

It'll take some time for anything to trickle through the production pipeline. Obviously anything coming out this year is pretty much finalized.

 

[ross2287]

Superhero film genre:


Superman 1977 started it all

Batman in 1989 revitalized it

X-men started the modern age

Spiderman capitalized it

Batman Begins and TDK blew it out of the ball park.

Watchmen turned it into art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU02FSndbLY&feature=channel_page

This.

 

[Shivsguy616]

Superhero film genre:


Superman 1977 started it all

Batman in 1989 revitalized it

X-men started the modern age

Spiderman capitalized it

Batman Begins and TDK blew it out of the ball park.

Watchmen turned it into art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU02FSndbLY&feature=channel_page

Well put.

 

[DACrowe]

I will say about this whole silly debate, I was just thinking--I get the costume Ozymandias wears is a subtle satire or parody of the costumes of the old Batman movies, the mass marketed cash-in superhero that went corporate. I get it: funny.

But how come considering the last 5 Batman movies (including BB) had a rubber suit just like this one and it still moves better than any of them ever did. And the ugly suit in TDK (sacrificing looks for mobility according to Nolan) that is supposedly realistic and functional, still moves much more stiff and slowly than Ozymandias did in his fight scenes?
Just saying...