The Simpsons to drop Apu from the show

I haven't seen the documentary but I've read and seen enough discussion about stereotypes in general to know that the level of harmfulness they cause is overblown on a wide scale. I'm not unsympathetic to people's feelings or those who grew up bullied by schoolmates, but bigoted people will continue to exist whether Apu is on TV or not, so the better option is encourage people to ignore that **** and make the changes they want. My main issue about this hole thing isn't even really about Apu, it's about people who aren't talent enough demanding talented people conform to their view of the world. There's no excuses anymore for people not to create what they want, the tools and resources are widely available and the internet gives an opportunity to showcase yourself. If you think you can do better then go out there and do it, have some confidence, find the right people, band together and create something you love.
This ignores treatment of minorities in the US over its entire history. This is the defense used to explain why minstrel shows or blackface was never all the harmful. That casting white actors as minority stereotypes in films had no effect in how the greater white population of the US view minorities. Entertainment has never lived in a vacuum, never will.

Also, in the US people can create what they like. And you know what else we can do here? We can critique other's work. And considering the amount it is done here, it is amazing how people complain about that very thing.

There is no worse argument then, "if you don't like it, do better". It's the argument of someone who doesn't have an actual argument.
 
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Race and culture are two different things.
So if Apu was the shows take on white, with the skin tone to match, he'd have the same job and they'd make the same joke out of it? He'd be an immigrate from India?
 
You'll forgive me but... That sounds exactly like blithely dismissing an individual or groups' concerns on an issue without learning what they find problematic while claiming to not need to find out it in the first place and placing your assumptions as more legitimate about their intentions, again, all while not having bothered to even hear their side in the first place.

Once more, I don't necessarily agree with all their conclusions but I've watched the documentary and it's not some "SJW" screed, it's quite heartfelt, in indeed is a window into a community I'm not a part of.

I also think... Art, especially things intended as mass entertainment done with corporate backing, doesn't exist in a vacuum. Audience reaction does play a part and that goes beyond the simple facts of the economic realities of the marketplace. Acting like considering the outcry from segments of the audience is some grand crime is looking for purity where it's never been. I mean... Look at the Battlestar re-boot. They had a gender swap of a main character and I'm sure that was done to include more women in the cast. There was likely a consideration of representation in the planning stages. That's a case of decisions made before the product is unveiled. Other times there's decisions made in the middle of production. The controversies that led to the departure of Roseanne Barr recently come to mind, and I suppose James Gunn too, though those had less to do with the content of products I suppose. Still corporate entertainment is kind of a two way street, especially today. And... This is still done via "choice". If a corporate entity decides to take something that they view as public outcry into consideration... they can make that choice. Just as the corporate overlords make choices that take into account the public all the time, just as they did before the age of social media. One can be angry about "the SJWs" all one wants but let's not even begin to act as though these corporations could choose to ignore what they wished to. This isn't the government mandating change, it's businesses deciding what feedback they are getting on their product.

Again... I'm not particularly invested in getting rid of Apu. I see the argument about him actually being a funny character that's actually a comparatively positive role model on the Simpsons... Comparatively since let's be honest they often depict him as being underhanded in his business practices, but then everyone has some issue on the show. But you know what... That argument, that "the show tackles everyone, so nobody has a right to complain" doesn't hold as much water as many think. I understand that the show creators have a right to do whatever they want but you know... Members of the audience have the right to voice their opinion on said product and when a product has far reaching impact and the longevity of The Simpsons I don't think we should cavalierly dismiss segments of the audience's issues with a character that traffics in stereotype, especially someone isn't even going to bother listening to the particulars of the group being stereotyped's issues with the product being put out there.

I'm not dismissing an individuals concerns, but an individual or even a small group of individuals don't not speak for an entire community. I get it, as someone who had their own issues growing up with my piers which affect my ability to socialise for years I know where they are coming from even without having seen the documentary. I'm sympathetic to how they must have felt growing up, feeling ostracised, feeling bullied, feeling alone, especially when there were so few Indian characters in western media, trust me, I get it. But it doesn't help you as an individual move forward and do something better if you're still looking backwards. I did that for years and it got me absolutely nowhere.

But regardless, the biggest problem I have is the idea this is anything more than a minority of people who have genuine issues with these type of characters, because for most people the biggest influences in their life are real people not characters. The other thing is the conversation seems to be only coming from people born after 1980 where there were limited option available to us. The people born after that generation have been growing up with Youtube where there are people from literally all over the world doing all sort of creative things. If you want to find someone who looks like you doing something creative, dude, it is literally at your finger tips on your phone. We have choice now, this is something that wasn't present back in 1990, so if people think the Simpsons are outdated, then ignore it and find something more to your tastes.
 
This ignores treatment of minorities in the US over its entire history. This is the defense used to explain why minstrel shows or blackface was never all the harmful. That casting white actors as minority stereotypes in films had no effect in how the greater white population of the US view minorities. Entertainment has never lived in a vacuum, never will.

Also, in the US people can create what they like. And you know what else we can do here? We can critique other's work. And considering the amount it is done here, it is amazing how people complain about that very thing.

There is no worse argument then, "if you don't like it, do better". It's the argument of someone who doesn't have an actual argument.

Actually it's the perfect argument, because it gives you a goal to strive for.
 
I find Apu pretty cool actually and again I have been subject to loads of racism and bigotry with folks imitating the indian accent to me but that’s really not on the simpsons per say. These same racist pricks will stereotypically imitate how mexicans sound or other asians sound but that’s the ignorance and stupidity of these bigots in general. I don’t blame the simpsons for their crap behavior.

In general I think there is a need for more positive ‘normal’ portrayals of south asians in American entertainment without too much of an emphasis on ethnicity or culture. Within British tv, there are loads of characters who are played by south asian actors and they are portrayed like normal working folks for the most part without much of an emphasis on race, culture or playing up stereotypes. This hasn’t happened yet in American entertainment but these things take time so I am not too fussed. As an aside, I actually liked the depiction of Agent Nadeem and his family in Daredevil. That was a great role and opportunity to showcase some south asian talent.

In general, there are so many larger racial issues to tackle at the moment where dangerously violent behavior can occur and those are the topics we should really be discussing how to solve. I have been held at knife point, gun point and even chased after by thugs due to my ethnicity and religion and trust me Apu should be the least of worries. If Apu is so offensive, I am surprised thes same folks aren’t throwing a massive fit over the indian cab driver character in Deadpool. It can be argued that he is far more offensive than the level headed, competent, smart and practical Apu.
 
I find Apu pretty cool actually and again I have been subject to loads of racism and bigotry with folks imitating the indian accent to me but that’s really not on the simpsons per say. These same racist pricks will stereotypically imitate how mexicans sound or other asians sound but that’s the ignorance and stupidity of these bigots in general. I don’t blame the simpsons for their crap behavior.

In general I think there is a need for more positive ‘normal’ portrayals of south asians in American entertainment without too much of an emphasis on ethnicity or culture. Within British tv, there are loads of characters who are played by south asian actors and they are portrayed like normal working folks for the most part without much of an emphasis on race, culture or playing up stereotypes. This hasn’t happened yet in American entertainment but these things take time so I am not too fussed. As an aside, I actually liked the depiction of Agent Nadeem and his family in Daredevil. That was a great role and opportunity to showcase some south asian talent.

In general, there are so many larger racial issues to tackle at the moment where dangerously violent behavior can occur and those are the topics we should really be discussing how to solve. I have been held at knife point, gun point and even chased after by thugs due to my ethnicity and religion and trust me Apu should be the least of worries. If Apu is so offensive, I am surprised thes same folks aren’t throwing a massive fit over the indian cab driver character in Deadpool. It can be argued that he is far more offensive than the level headed, competent, smart and practical Apu.

Britain has a much larger asian population (%) than america. Hence higher representation. Black people have a higher representation in american tv.

In all though there are more south asian film stars than white american as bollywood makes far more films than hollywood.

We also have oscar winning Sir Ben Kingsley.
 
Frankly I think it's stupid that in a show about yellow humanoids they have a brown skinned one. Theyve already got yellow. A color that no human is. Why not pick another odd color for the show's other races? Maybe purple or orange or green. Who thought, "We need a brown skinned Indian based humanoid in this show about yellow skinned humanoids." They should have made every character yellow and not mentioned race at all, or chose odd colors for all the races.
 
But again, you're picking and choosing here, Mad Ones. Why is Apu off-limits but the straight-up-stereotype gay guys and crazy ladies and impoverished hillbillies are okay? You're trying to tell me nobody with a strong southern accent has never had to deal with a "hey maw, git off tha dang roof!" or a "no more sittin' in the dirt at the drive-in!" or a roadkill joke? Or that the Rabbi character or various gay guys are less "run with the most broad assumed stereotype imaginable and take it really far" than Apu is?

You think rollerblading-in-hot-pants-and-collecting-Barbie-Dolls Smithers isn't a pretty hardcore one-note caricature? Literally every elderly character on the show from Grandpa to Abe to Old Jewish Man & Hans Moleman? Bumblebee Man? Cat Lady, Dr Nick?

Let's be real here, the only reason Apu's singled out is because Kondabolu made an accusation, turned it int a documentary, and due to that the usual clapping seals get on board with the notion that it's "problematic".

Look, I get that he's the one representative of his ethnicity an country-of-origin on the show. Granted. But is that much different to any of the other characters? You've got one Japanese guy, a total 1940s-era heavy-accented cliche that makes Mr Miyagi seem nuanced. One mentally-ill character who's a raving dishevelled loon who throws cats at people. There are multiple elderly characters and multiple gay people, but they're all pretty much one-note assumed character traits with the stereotypes played up to eleven.

Difference? They're all minorities, so that's out. Nobody would say with a straight face that the mentally-ill and homosexuals aren't both marginalized groups. Or poor backwoods hill-folk in Cletus' case. Going to go out on a limb and say the mannerisms & even specific lines from each of those characters on the show have been directed at real-life members of those communities in some form or another over the years.

So the only difference is nobody from those communities has gone on some little self-righteous crusade over it and started making demands. If you're going to set precedent with this, those dominos are falling really damn quickly, and it's going to affect more than just The Simpsons. Like, hell, you wonder why comedians like Chris Rock, or even so-tame-your-grandparents-would-like-him Jerry Seinfeld won't play college campus gigs anymore. It's this crap.

Manasrepublic, you nailed it. You just need more representations of minority characters, not less. Over time this stuff will get better as the population diversifies more, but you can't start mandating a comedy show with quotas and boundaries this way. If Apu's not okay, there are another 15-20 characters on this show that aren't either. Only, they are okay, because a majority of people of these specifc groups get that it's a ****ing joke with no malice behind it.

If you think Apu's beyond-the-pale, you're not going to make it through something as mainstream and socially-okay as a Just For Laughs festival or Edinburgh Comedy Festival or whatever without having a heart attack. Comedy's not always without offense, even mild offense, it's sort of why it's friggin' comedy in the first place. You being offended doesn't mean you're right in being offended. I get that "Willie's white, so he's not Apu". Gotcha. Try making that argument when Akira and Smithers and Julio and Cookie Quan and Hans friggin' decrepit-and-useless-elderly-person Moleman are around though. They are Apu-equivalents, and nobody cares. They shouldn't care, either.


EDIT: That comment from Al Jean is pretty heartening. Doesn't mean Shankar hasn't heard some stuff on the gravevine, I tend to think he's probably got a legit inside source or two here, but definitely doesn't sound like it's a done deal. Hopefully Jean displays some balls in this.
 
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In general I think there is a need for more positive ‘normal’ portrayals of south asians in American entertainment without too much of an emphasis on ethnicity or culture. Within British tv, there are loads of characters who are played by south asian actors and they are portrayed like normal working folks for the most part without much of an emphasis on race, culture or playing up stereotypes. This hasn’t happened yet in American entertainment but these things take time so I am not too fussed. As an aside, I actually liked the depiction of Agent Nadeem and his family in Daredevil. That was a great role and opportunity to showcase some south asian talent.

Someone on YouTube made a point similar to this. People like Apu, while he's obviously exaggerated, do exist. But then there's Indians who have assimilated into American culture more. Apu's humor is derived from his fish out of water persona, not necessarily that he's Indian. You could have other Indian characters on the show that don't act out like he does and you will have covered a broader spectrum.
 
Bingo. And literally nobody with a pulse would have any problem with that.

That being said, the actual Apu stuff is overstated anyway. Hard-working immigrant guy running a business and having to deal with all sorts of other-negative-stereotype crims and punk delinquent kids. What are the negative sides to Apu? He occasionally price-gouges people? Yeah, that never happens with convenience stores in a crisis, no matter who's running it. Other negatives...he's shown to have a whole bunch of kids? Ooh, an intendedly-benign reference to the huge population of India, the horror.

On the other hand, he has a high-level college degree. He's pretty much the "straight man" intelligent guy to Homer & Co's doofus shenanigans. He's passionate about defending his religion while respecting other's, he's a vegan, he knows ****ing Paul McCartney.

And to boot the guy's fleshed out a good deal more than basically every other minority character on the show, maybe bar Krusty. He has his own family, little circle of characters, a backstory, and gets agency in quite a few of his own little side-stories. As far as The Simpsons goes, there are just so many other examples of people getting way worse treatment. But nobody's started a little crusade over them, so they're cool I guess. Awesome.
 
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Hope they don't remove Apu.

I don't watch the Simpsons anymore but agree with what many say on here he was a brilliantly fleshed out character. Who never once to me

Also a Scotsmen I think if anyone should have a gripe with the way the Simpsons have portrays certain characters its us lol.

Think we are going too far in the direction of political correctness, where people have to push back to show this is all getting a little ridiculous now.
 
Is Smithers the only queer character that American families know of? No, there are other role models and popular characters. When Apu is all you have growing up, that's a problem. When Apu is the one character reflecting and refracting the image of Indians in America, that's a problem.
Honest question, cause I haven't watched a ton of Simpsons or watched it at all in many years: what about the character is so terrible? Whenever I think of Apu, it makes me think of an Indian friend I had in high school that loved the character. I can see how his being voiced by a white actor in 2018 is problematic, but I can't recall anything bad about the character himself. He has a funny name, a thick accent, and he works reeeeeaaaally hard.
 
You're putting a lot of effort into ignoring and defending power dynamics that harm people. A bunch of white writers writing stereotypes of people in marginalized communities used to be an unquestioned norm and look at the racism and violence in America today. Americans mocking Canadians isn't a big deal to Canadians because the quality of life of Canadians isn't affected by it. It would be affected if that mockery was coupled with the economic and political subjugation of Canadians like it is for black and brown peoples.

Is Smithers the only queer character that American families know of? No, there are other role models and popular characters. When Apu is all you have growing up, that's a problem. When Apu is the one character reflecting and refracting the image of Indians in America, that's a problem.

Apu is not the only indian on american tv though.

https://www.mansworldindia.com/fresh/the-rise-of-indians-on-american-tv/
 
Honest question, cause I haven't watched a ton of Simpsons or watched it at all in many years: what about the character is so terrible? Whenever I think of Apu, it makes me think of an Indian friend I had in high school that loved the character. I can see how his being voiced by a white actor in 2018 is problematic, but I can't recall anything bad about the character himself. He has a funny name, a thick accent, and he works reeeeeaaaally hard.

It really isn't though this is another ridiculous form of outrage that didn't exist 10 years ago. And please don't get me wrong im not slating or criticizing you for saying it im just saying how insane that this is an issue that we feel like we need to address.

Voice acting is a profession there are plenty of people I bet who just do that, now can you imagine trying to get a job in that field (that's probably already pretty crowded) and now if this really starts to get pushed it will be even smaller.

You stop having a job as broad as a "voice actor" your now just "voice actor of male white parts". The notion that people should only play cartoon characters that's colour and or faith matches their own is beyond madness.
 
It really isn't though this is another ridiculous form of outrage that didn't exist 10 years ago. And please don't get me wrong im not slating or criticizing you for saying it im just saying how insane that this is an issue that we feel like we need to address.

Voice acting is a profession there are plenty of people I bet who just do that, now can you imagine trying to get a job in that field (that's probably already pretty crowded) and now if this really starts to get pushed it will be even smaller.

You stop having a job as broad as a "voice actor" your now just "voice actor of male white parts". The notion that people should only play cartoon characters that's colour and or faith matches their own is beyond madness.

It would put nancy cartwright out of a job.
 
I find Apu pretty cool actually and again I have been subject to loads of racism and bigotry with folks imitating the indian accent to me but that’s really not on the simpsons per say. These same racist pricks will stereotypically imitate how mexicans sound or other asians sound but that’s the ignorance and stupidity of these bigots in general. I don’t blame the simpsons for their crap behavior.

In general I think there is a need for more positive ‘normal’ portrayals of south asians in American entertainment without too much of an emphasis on ethnicity or culture. Within British tv, there are loads of characters who are played by south asian actors and they are portrayed like normal working folks for the most part without much of an emphasis on race, culture or playing up stereotypes. This hasn’t happened yet in American entertainment but these things take time so I am not too fussed. As an aside, I actually liked the depiction of Agent Nadeem and his family in Daredevil. That was a great role and opportunity to showcase some south asian talent.

In general, there are so many larger racial issues to tackle at the moment where dangerously violent behavior can occur and those are the topics we should really be discussing how to solve. I have been held at knife point, gun point and even chased after by thugs due to my ethnicity and religion and trust me Apu should be the least of worries. If Apu is so offensive, I am surprised thes same folks aren’t throwing a massive fit over the indian cab driver character in Deadpool. It can be argued that he is far more offensive than the level headed, competent, smart and practical Apu.

We have a similar thing down here. We've had a long history of TV shows and movies made by and starring people from all different ethnic backgrounds, heck, we've got a free to air TV station nationwide that is more or less dedicated to showcasing these type of shows and movies. And we have all of that without having to destroy everything else we've made. Sucks all that happened to you BTW, hope you got out of it alright.
 
I find Apu pretty cool actually and again I have been subject to loads of racism and bigotry with folks imitating the indian accent to me but that’s really not on the simpsons per say. These same racist pricks will stereotypically imitate how mexicans sound or other asians sound but that’s the ignorance and stupidity of these bigots in general. I don’t blame the simpsons for their crap behavior.

In general I think there is a need for more positive ‘normal’ portrayals of south asians in American entertainment without too much of an emphasis on ethnicity or culture. Within British tv, there are loads of characters who are played by south asian actors and they are portrayed like normal working folks for the most part without much of an emphasis on race, culture or playing up stereotypes. This hasn’t happened yet in American entertainment but these things take time so I am not too fussed. As an aside, I actually liked the depiction of Agent Nadeem and his family in Daredevil. That was a great role and opportunity to showcase some south asian talent.

In general, there are so many larger racial issues to tackle at the moment where dangerously violent behavior can occur and those are the topics we should really be discussing how to solve. I have been held at knife point, gun point and even chased after by thugs due to my ethnicity and religion and trust me Apu should be the least of worries. If Apu is so offensive, I am surprised thes same folks aren’t throwing a massive fit over the indian cab driver character in Deadpool. It can be argued that he is far more offensive than the level headed, competent, smart and practical Apu.
Sorry to hear mate. I agree that Nadeem in Daredevil was great to see.
 
I get that Apu, especially in earlier stories, has been portrayed with less than cultural sensitivity. I get that he is still the subject of jokes related to his race, religion, etc. And I get that there needs to be better representation of diverse cultures on television in general.

But I really think looking at the Simpsons, a purposely offensive satire laden with stereotypes and then some, is the wrong place to start looking for that kind of change in mainstream media. Comedy has become the go-to attack point for insensitivity...and that's like, half the point of much adult comedy. Being offensive. Poking at sensitivities.

It's 2018, and while decisions made in the past have not disappeared, the character has generally moved beyond the purely racial puns and jokes of his earlier portrayal. The character has been portrayed positively in a number of ways. That is, of course, aside from some ongoing cultural "jokes", which is essentially what The Simpsons does. It pokes fun of everyone and everything. There's a reason people keep saying that. It's literally the point of the show. And I think that context matters when looking at the issue. Apu is not being singled out, and his religion mocked while others are celebrated. All religions are mocked. All jobs are lampooned. All societies are condemned.

That said, the character obviously still offends people beyond the basic satire of it. We don't get to tell people not be offended just because we may not be. And there are ways to approach this issue, and to evolve and grow the character of Apu beyond the limited scope of supporting character he has had for decades. I'm not even going to touch the whole "He's played by a white voice actor" thing.
 
You think rollerblading-in-hot-pants-and-collecting-Barbie-Dolls Smithers isn't a pretty hardcore one-note caricature? Literally every elderly character on the show from Grandpa to Abe to Old Jewish Man & Hans Moleman? Bumblebee Man? Cat Lady, Dr Nick?

When I entered my 40s, I basically became Smithers.
 
And would you complain about Smithers as some unnacceptable affront to the gay community, due to being voiced by a straight guy and written by straight people? :oldrazz:

Nah. You're not a useless human being.
 
I've never been offended by Smithers.

People faux-ffended by characters like Apu or Smithers are just trying to show how fake "woke" they are. And showrunners knuckling under to them by removing Apu just encourages their undeserved sense of righteousness.
 
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#CartoonManBad
 

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