Homecoming The Spider-Man Skepticism Thread

[X Knight]

Yes. Although on this forum it is frowned upon to agree with Harry or to find his points valid.

true........

 

[jasontodd]

Even though they are.

 

[harryoscop]

Thanks, guys. A lot of my points are labelled ridiculous but it's always based on facts & reading between the lines. For instance, that panel I posted showcased the difference between traditional Peter & Holland. Ultimate is 15 just like him and has been Spider-Man for a shorter amount of time but he's mature & responsible. He's worried about the many consequences of May & others finding out who he is and how that could affect them in a variety of ways. MCU is worried about not being able to do what he loves. The dialogue is similar but the intent is completely different

 

[NealKenneth]

It is very irritating to me that Spider-Man is going to have a peer that knows his secret identity.

This was actually something that I hated most about the Ultimate Spider-Man comics, which were mostly good. Don't the writers know that it being a secret is part of what makes Peter Parker who he is? the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon seems to be the only thing since the original Stan Lee stories that understood that. Very often it makes him look like a terrible friend, but he bears the burden alone to protect them anyway. It's part of what makes him a hero.

It made sense to me that Iron Man would know who he is. Some of the other heroes could too. But his peers, his family and friends? They should not.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

How do you do that? The only way for me would be to avoid the internet entirely. Because my Twitter line & Instagram is flooded with people talking about Homecoming.

I convince myself he's a mediocre character when I'm not entertaining myself with an already existing Spidey story or game, helps avoid the news and scroll past the hyped up posts.
My twitter and facebook feed lack Spidey related talk, it's more about people sharing views on other matters mostly not related to fiction, and I go there mostly to advertise my YouTube channel.
On this site, I join lounges more than anything else.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Let me remind you that this was Ultimate Peter two months into his powers whereas MCU is 8 months into his.

I rest my case.

Do you know how much easier it'd be swallow if they made him say..a week or two into being Spider-Man when we saw him in Civil War and/or Homecoming?

Granted, I'd still have issues, but at least I'd be a little more accepting in going on their journey. 6-8 months and all he had to sport was this:

Spoiler

6-8 months and all he fought were petty thugs, purse snatchers, etc. It's just a little much is all, especially when other versions of the character (like in that very panel) handle the whole "learning to be Spider-Man" better.

 

[Spider-Ock]

actually, harry does make a point.

in the comic bubble, Peter is expressing his concern for others - what his enemies would do to May, the school, etc. What it would do to May if she knew Peter risked his life every night and might get killed. iow, the stress and worry it would cause May.

in the clip, it's more about Peter worrying that May wouldn't let him do this anymore if she found out. He doesn't really express concern about the safety of those around him or the potential stress it would cause. It's more about "If May finds out, she'll kill me" instead of "If May finds out, it would kill her."

so that does come across as MCU Peter seeming to be more concerned about him not being able to continue as Spidey should May find out, as opposed to Ultimate Peter who is concerned more about how it would endanger and worry/stress the people around him if they knew.

granted, it's kind of hard to judge the totality of the film from that one clip.

but harry does bring up a valid point, imo.

comparing that clip to the Ultimate comic panel also serves as a stark contrast between Ultimate MJ and Zendaya's character in the clip.

Even though Ultimate MJ was more of a nerd than classic 616 party girl MJ, she was still pretty and she had a bright, bubbly, uplifting personality. Look how excited she was initially to learn of Peter's secret and how she wants to share it with the world ( outgoing personality ).

contrast that to the sour/dour, frowning/scowling "Michelle" who enjoys teasing Peter and making him squirm with her questioning, only to laugh it off sarcastically.

Wll what about him not wanting to endanger his loved ones? Why didn't he explain that to Ned? Toomes probably finds out, that's why Schocker showed up in the Schoolyard. Seems like something Peter would make clear to him

Ahh I see. I went back and saw the panel again and I take it back. What you pointed out is indeed valid. He should be concerned for May's and his close friends' safety.

I apologize for not carefully reading the whole panel before.

 

[ironwez20]

I don't understand the point of Ned knowing his secret identity. it makes no sense to me. I think that it will give the movie a huge crutch and the sense of urgency for peter not wanting to endanger the ones he cares about won't be there. I mean what is to become of this ned guy anyway? Is he gonna just be with peter for the rest of the franchise and help him with tech stuff? Seems like a boring character to me. Should of went with Harry. i don't care if it's been done before.

 

[ironwez20]

Thanks, guys. A lot of my points are labelled ridiculous but it's always based on facts & reading between the lines. For instance, that panel I posted showcased the difference between traditional Peter & Holland. Ultimate is 15 just like him and has been Spider-Man for a shorter amount of time but he's mature & responsible. He's worried about the many consequences of May & others finding out who he is and how that could affect them in a variety of ways. MCU is worried about not being able to do what he loves. The dialogue is similar but the intent is completely different

No I don't think he thinks that way at all. He was concerned with Aunt may when tony visited him. Aunt may is strange to me. I wonder what there relationship will be like. She is not old so her heart is not going to be weak.

 

[harryoscop]

A lot of fan complaints over this movie. I do think it will end up dividing fans in the same way the first TASM movie divided them.

I'm not even complaining in the General Discussion thread but the complaints from other fans just keep stacking up, the debates keep happening. When I was on probation, nowhere around on the forum, debates about Stark, changes etc were happening then as well. Several longtime fansites are divided over this movie (Does Whatever a Spider Can, Spider-Man Crawlspace, Comic Book Resources forum) It's all clearly coming from established fans.


The forum for the first TASM was more positive than this movie. The only changes people were complaining about prior to the release date was the darker, grounded tone, the suit and the idea of rebooting so soon after the Raimi trilogy. Nobody complained about the casting (because it was great), nobody complained about Gwen Stacy, nobody complained about any supporting character because nobody in the movie was INO version of the name that was assigned to them. Nobody had to worry about another hero taking credit for technology Peter made himself in the comics & turning him into a pseudo Robin-like sidekick. Don't believe me? Visit the forum for TASM through 2010 to June 2012.

 

[ironwez20]

A lot of fan complaints over this movie. I do think it will end up dividing fans in the same way the first TASM movie divided them.

I'm not even complaining in the General Discussion thread but the complaints from other fans just keep stacking up, the debates keep happening. When I was on probation, nowhere around on the forum, debates about Stark, changes etc were happening then as well. Several longtime fansites are divided over this movie (Does Whatever a Spider Can, Spider-Man Crawlspace, Comic Book Resources forum) It's all clearly coming from established fans.


The forum for the first TASM was more positive than this movie. The only changes people were complaining about prior to the release date was the darker, grounded tone, the suit and the idea of rebooting so soon after the Raimi trilogy. Nobody complained about the casting (because it was great), nobody complained about Gwen Stacy, nobody complained about any supporting character because nobody in the movie was INO version of the name that was assigned to them. Nobody had to worry about another hero taking credit for technology Peter made himself in the comics & turning him into a pseudo Robin-like sidekick. Don't believe me? Visit the forum for TASM through 2010 to June 2012.

Lol you saw that thing I posted? yea i'm seeing alot of negative enrgy surrounding the movie. The casting, tony stark. I guess when it comes to spiderman people want it to be down to a T with quality. you can mess up iron man and captain america all you want but don't mess with spider-man. He started this whole movie suphero train with the xmen.

 

[spiderman2]

A lot of fan complaints over this movie. I do think it will end up dividing fans in the same way the first TASM movie divided them.

I'm not even complaining in the General Discussion thread but the complaints from other fans just keep stacking up, the debates keep happening. When I was on probation, nowhere around on the forum, debates about Stark, changes etc were happening then as well. Several longtime fansites are divided over this movie (Does Whatever a Spider Can, Spider-Man Crawlspace, Comic Book Resources forum) It's all clearly coming from established fans.


The forum for the first TASM was more positive than this movie. The only changes people were complaining about prior to the release date was the darker, grounded tone, the suit and the idea of rebooting so soon after the Raimi trilogy. Nobody complained about the casting (because it was great), nobody complained about Gwen Stacy, nobody complained about any supporting character because nobody in the movie was INO version of the name that was assigned to them. Nobody had to worry about another hero taking credit for technology Peter made himself in the comics & turning him into a pseudo Robin-like sidekick. Don't believe me? Visit the forum for TASM through 2010 to June 2012.

Yeah I don't know if people even really had that much of a problem with the darker, grounded tone either. Really I would say the only big problems people had leading up to release was the suit and doing a origin story again and reboot so soon after Rami. The other things I would say were complained about at a small level.

 

[Dark Raven]

I don't understand the point of Ned knowing his secret identity. it makes no sense to me. I think that it will give the movie a huge crutch and the sense of urgency for peter not wanting to endanger the ones he cares about won't be there. I mean what is to become of this ned guy anyway? Is he gonna just be with peter for the rest of the franchise and help him with tech stuff? Seems like a boring character to me. Should of went with Harry. i don't care if it's been done before.

I don't know if it was for the purpose of that visual gag where Ganke puts on the spider mask over his fat head, so that people would get a laugh out of that. I would hope not. It seems a bit of a cheap gag. I don't know if Watts giving Peter a confidante is trying to emulate parts of John Hughes movies, but they could've still done that without Ganke knowing Peter's identity.

I also do find Ganke a bit boring. And you ask what is to become of him. Maybe he'll still become the Hobgoblin in a sequel.

A lot of fan complaints over this movie. I do think it will end up dividing fans in the same way the first TASM movie divided them.

I'm not even complaining in the General Discussion thread but the complaints from other fans just keep stacking up, the debates keep happening. When I was on probation, nowhere around on the forum, debates about Stark, changes etc were happening then as well. Several longtime fansites are divided over this movie (Does Whatever a Spider Can, Spider-Man Crawlspace, Comic Book Resources forum) It's all clearly coming from established fans.


The forum for the first TASM was more positive than this movie. The only changes people were complaining about prior to the release date was the darker, grounded tone, the suit and the idea of rebooting so soon after the Raimi trilogy. Nobody complained about the casting (because it was great), nobody complained about Gwen Stacy, nobody complained about any supporting character because nobody in the movie was INO version of the name that was assigned to them. Nobody had to worry about another hero taking credit for technology Peter made himself in the comics & turning him into a pseudo Robin-like sidekick. Don't believe me? Visit the forum for TASM through 2010 to June 2012.

Why were you put on probation exactly?

 

[SpideyJJ]

Man, even though Harryoscop has such a bad rep I generally find myself agreeing with him more than a majority of posters here on certain grievances with Homecoming.


As for this movie being divisive, I think the general audience only cares if the movie is good or not. Outside of comic book nerds/fan, the changes seem to be garnering a positive reception. It's the long time comic readers that seem to have this divide (those who seem on board with the direction, and those who aren't). The sad part is that any negative feedback (not just knee-jerk reactions but genuine grievances) will be brushed off as 'comic book nerds who can never be pleased complaining again' and that 'MCU knowns the character better than anyone'.

 

[PeterBenParker]

I don't understand the point of Ned knowing his secret identity. it makes no sense to me.

If I remember it right, they wanted the dynamic Miles and Ganke share (true bros.) for Peter and Ned. In the comics, Miles is always turning to Ganke about being Spider-Man, so maybe that's what we'll have here moving forward.

Despite him being Ned Leeds now, I highly doubt he'll ever be Hobgoblin or even come close to anything-really Ned related. Maybe The Bugle, so Peter can have a window to get involved in it? I'm not 100% but if it's anything like the Ult. cartoon (and it has been in some regards), Peter may not even be interested in the Bugle but rather someone else in his circle of friends..

 

[X Knight]

If I remember it right, they wanted the dynamic Miles and Ganke share (true bros.) for Peter and Ned. In the comics, Miles is always turning to Ganke about being Spider-Man, so maybe that's what we'll have here moving forward.

Despite him being Ned Leeds now, I highly doubt he'll ever be Hobgoblin or even come close to anything-really Ned related. Maybe The Bugle, so Peter can have a window to get involved in it? I'm not 100% but if it's anything like the Ult. cartoon (and it has been in some regards), Peter may not even be interested in the Bugle but rather someone else in his circle of friends..

oh, man. If they make Peter disinterested in the Bugle in this series, then that would be another nail in the coffin for me.

The Bugle was practically absent from the TASM films.

so, I want it to return to form in this series. Peter is linked to the Bugle like Clark is to the Planet.

you can't remove that element from his life, imo.

call me old fashioned, but I like traditional elements.

you start changing or removing those, then I start losing interest.

 

[X Knight]

Thanks, guys. A lot of my points are labelled ridiculous but it's always based on facts & reading between the lines. For instance, that panel I posted showcased the difference between traditional Peter & Holland. Ultimate is 15 just like him and has been Spider-Man for a shorter amount of time but he's mature & responsible. He's worried about the many consequences of May & others finding out who he is and how that could affect them in a variety of ways. MCU is worried about not being able to do what he loves. The dialogue is similar but the intent is completely different

no probs, harry.

Ahh I see. I went back and saw the panel again and I take it back. What you pointed out is indeed valid. He should be concerned for May's and his close friends' safety.

I apologize for not carefully reading the whole panel before.

that's ok.

it's a very subtle difference, so it can be hard to miss.

but it also goes to show you how a subtle change - just one or 2 words or one line missing - can change the intent and context of a scene.

 

[Dark Raven]

If harryoscop were a hot girl, posters who don't agree would probably be more forgiving of him.

 

[X Knight]

If harryoscop were a hot girl, posters who don't agree would probably be more forgiving of him.

true.

 

[PeterBenParker]

oh, man. If they make Peter disinterested in the Bugle in this series, then that would be another nail in the coffin for me.

The Bugle was practically absent from the TASM films.

so, I want it to return to form in this series. Peter is linked to the Bugle like Clark is to the Planet.

you can't remove that element from his life, imo.

call me old fashioned, but I like traditional elements.

you start changing or removing those, then I start losing interest.

I completely agree, I just have a few worries is all. I consider it a bit telling already that they didn't use The Bugle again.

Marvel made a conscious decision to not include or reference any characters who had appeared in previous Spider-Man films outside Peter and May Parker and Flash Thompson, including The Daily Bugle. Carroll noted The Daily Bugle's exclusion, saying, "We toyed with it for a while, but again, we didn’t want to go down that road right away, and if we do do a Daily Bugle, we want to do it in a way that feels contemporary. Working in a newspaper while fighting crime and overachieving, it just felt like one of those things where like… maybe it’s in his future? Maybe it’s what he does in college or something like that. But for now, no."

I honestly wouldn't mind it too much if he got involved with The Bugle when he's headed to college, kinda like how Tobey's Peter did. I'd rather it be in high school for a change of pace (and would make a little more sense for JJJ to be skimpy with paying a kid), but beggars can't be choosers!

 

[Dark Raven]

Is Jonah Jameson supposed to believe that Peter works in collaboration with Spidey to get these exclusive photographs of him, with Spidey taking them and giving them to Peter, or that Peter actually takes them? Because wouldn't it seem rather unbelievable that a young teenager would be go into these often precarious places to shoot photos of Spider-Man where it seems clear that no-one else could possibly attain such angles?

And if they're just normal photos of him, then in this day and age, everyone has a cell phone and can take photos easily. So anyone can send in their pictures. Why should Peter have an special significance at the Bugle?

 

[Matt Parker]

As always, I have thoughts regarding the discussion here. One, in fairness, in the first Raimi movie, Peter fought nothing but petty thugs and street crime for about 6 moths or so, since the movie skips ahead about half a year after he graduates, and he starts fighting crime after he graduates. Two, Peter does't want Aunt May to keep him from going out and helping others. What is he really gaining by going out and saving people? He's trying to honor ben's memory, and Aunt May preventing him from going out would, in his eyes, lead to people getting robbed, hurt or even killed in situations that he could have prevented. I think you guys are dogging on this version of Pete a bit much .

 

[PeterBenParker]

One, in fairness, in the first Raimi movie, Peter fought nothing but petty thugs and street crime for about 6 moths or so, since the movie skips ahead about half a year after he graduates, and he starts fighting crime after he graduates.

That was done because they had to have Green Goblin's story coincide with the plot and also have a reason to get Spider-Man and Green Goblin facing off. You couldn't have them meet if Spider-Man was still early into his career otherwise he wouldn't have stood much of a chance. Although, mention anything negative about MJ towards him and suddenly he can do anything as his story was "all about a girl".

Look at a more recent example in TASM and he was facing The Lizard within weeks of being Spider-Man. There's also the obvious comics and cartoons, too. So, IMO, it's not a leap to have wanted this Peter to have had more experience when we first see him.

I think at the bare minimum they could've shown or at least acknowledged he faced some lower-tier villains (Big Wheel, White Rabbit, etc.) or villains they don't plan on using (Chameleon?) when Tony was showing him his cell phone footage.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Every cartoon has started at least 3-4 months into his career IMO.

TAS had him in college for their first episode and TSSM mentioned specifically that he had been Spider-Man all summer at least before their first episode. AFAIK both series had him facing increasing odds that he hadn't yet faced before as they began and continued. So not too different in that regard.

 

[Matt Parker]

So, my point still stands. The 90s Animated Series, Spectacular and the first Raimi movie all had a Spider-man who spent 4-6 months fighting random street crime and going on rather mundane adventures before even encountering a true super villain. Heck, Tobey's Peter went two years without encountering a super villain in between the first and second films. I don't get why this aspect is being criticized. However, I enjoy the discussion!