The Squared Circle (All things Pro Wrestling)

[Nightmare]

Maybe so, I think both Taker and Hbk's time is winding down.

 

[DX]

If Shawn loses then retires, only to come out of retirement months later, it would cheapen the match and end result. If Undertaker's "sacred" streak is the on the line then the retirement has to genuine.

Agreed. Which is why I HATE that Ric Flair is wrestling again, it just makes that match with Michaels seem pointless.

Not to mention, the man's 61 years old.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Thats part of the point. Vader was pushed as a monster in WCW cause he was ready. Sheamus wasn't ready to be WWE champ. Beating Jamie Noble and kicking a 60 year old Jerry Lawler does not equal a strong push. Not only was the push weak but he didn't deserve what he got.

He didn't deserve it but it was a lot stronger push than most heels get, esepcially heels with no build up.

Khali's immobile but he's more impressive in terms of physique than Gonzales. Khali LOOKS more physically dominating even if he can't work. He certainly didn't wear a fake airbrushed muscle suit with fur all over it. Gonzales was just tall.

His working is terrible but his booking was pretty strong for a while. A lot of fans crapped on his working but he also got a lot of heat and responses.

His heat was go away heat, hell he's more over now as the goofy Punjabi playboy than he ever was a a monster who's chops looks so weak it's hard to believe they'd fell a child let alone Taker.

Edge is also a guy with 7 months out of the ring while Jericho has been steadily performing. Edge got hurt running in the ring while Jericho never has. Jericho has recent losses but his overall career is pretty impressive.

Jericho is also the guy that took the unified tag titles and made the division a bit better while Edge was on the shelf with Jericho trash talking him. The feud continuing is important but there's a reason Edge is a top guy. He's going to have input on this too and he has the talent to make it work and make Jericho look good before Mania.

It doesn't matter how long Edge has been out of the ring, he has been the biggest star in the WWE next to Cena for the last few years, he could be out 2 years and walk straight into a main event, Jericho has been working as mostly a mid card act for the last year.

There's nothing wrong with that if it isn't overdone like with Sheamus. That was Jericho making a point to Edge AND Taker and considering Jericho won the EC it made that point valid.

It still doesn't give Jericho any crediblity though.

Its not an embellishment in terms of his skill and working in the ring. it is as far as his RECENT success. With his overall success it may or may not be an embellishment at all. Think about how many world titles and IC titles Jericho has. We aren't talking about The Brooklyn Brawler here.

You have to consider that part of Jericho's heel act is the hypocrisy.

Fans on the whole do not care about skill levels in the ring, as we have said perception is reality in wrestling and the perception of Jericho is that he is the guy that runs his mouth and then loses.

They're clones from the WWE assembly line. Years ago guys came up and ended up with distinctive looks and personalities. Because of WWE's current tunnel vision farm system there is no diversity or flavor to the rookies and they are essentially fodder for the top guys.

The lack of individuals is a big issue in the busines right now and goes back to the problem with there being no territories for guys to learn their craft in.

Thats because the whole thing was drawn out and up in the air as far as what was going to happen. Its a testament to the wrestlers, not the bookers, that it came off so well.

Part of it was because the rest of the show was poor but part of it was that by the end it was a good match with some good work in the buildup by the primary players.

Which was everyone not just Jericho, I am actually not sure how this really pertains to our main topic point here lol.

Part of it is cheap heat because when he insults the crowd but it aint cheap when he's talking TO Gallows or Serena. Or taking a crucified pose when he's about to give Rey the GTS.

He doesn't SAY anything. Its all in body language which is part of the art form of wrestling. It shows he's a more traditional and multifaceted worker than Miz when it comes to understanding what to do in the ring AND on the mike/in promos. Miz isn't thinking on that level yet

Miz has to use a ton of words to get across what Punk does with a SMILE or a GESTURE. Its a lot more clever than Miz yelling he's awesome and how he doesn't need the fans.

Punk's heat is essentially based off the gimmick, people will boo anything he does right now b/c he has already disparaged them all before the match has even started, so anything he does is loaded to begin with, plus I have seen Miz use mannerisms during his matches to draw the crowd hate, I think you are grossly underrating Miz, both guys are suiffering from some repetetive mic work right now though.

Punks heat is also mostly based around his wrestling persona. A lot of Miz's heat comes from the fact that he was on real world and people don't take him seriously as a wrestler. His character is built on top of that.

When Punk beat Jeff for the belt using MITB he was telling the TRUTH. Its ok for him to beat Edge but the fans crapped on him because he did the same thing to their underdog hero Jeff Hardy?

The beauty of that heel heat is that Punk ISN'T wrong. Punk worked that brilliantly. Its not an insult but the truth.

When was the last time Miz used something that clever to gain heat?

his wrestling persona is simply a hyped up self righteous version of his rela life personality, same as Miz, there really isn't a great deal of difference, neither can choose how they cam by being in the WWE but both have used their pasts smartly in order to create their characters, it's why both have gotten over so well.

When was the last time Miz was booked with such a good angle? you make it sound like Punk did something clever when in truth it was the booking that was clever, booking is everything as this debate emphasises.

I have no problem with him putting some of himself in his character but its a *****baggy character and not in a good way. Its weak, uncreative and 1 dimensional...even by wrestling standards.

The best promo hes cut was about how he got treated in the locker room. More stuff like that and less *****e and he might be impressive. After he steps his game up in the ring 200 percent of course.

He talks a lot of $h*t he can't back up. Plenty of guys have worked their asses. Miz complains how his reality show status hurt him but he has to know it HELPED him too. Its a double edged sword.

A guy like MVP got to WWE the old fashioned way and he's had to put up with his fair share of crap too.

It's no more uncreative than ripping Raven off and makiing it about dissing the one thing 90% off WWE's audience love.

Again I think you are exagerrating on Miz' abilities, I am not sitting here saying he should be world champion but his ring work is certainly of as good a standard as many of the other guys like Ziggler, Swagger and Kofi.

MVP's problem is that his working style doesn't fit his character.

Thats WWE's fault. But they could have done much worse than what they've chosen to do. We at least get a better chance of getting a WM level match in terms of work.

I'd rather not see Edge try to carry a wounded Taker for 40 minutes or worse a quick 10 minute match. I definitely don't want to see HHH sniffing around the ME.

You're right it is WWE's fault, however Taker is capable as he showed in the chamber of holding his own still when the occasion calls, I'll lay it on the line right now that no matter how much he is hurting him and HBK will outperform Edge Jericho on the big stage, Taker is one of the greatest big match workers ever and when it comes time to delvier he never fails.

 

[Bad Superman]

Agreed. Which is why I HATE that Ric Flair is wrestling again, it just makes that match with Michaels seem pointless.

Not to mention, the man's 61 years old.

DX!!!

I agree. Flair wrestling again kind of cheapens his send off.

I expected him to have a financial plan to take care of his money problems while being retired.

 

[Nightwing 52]

Decent RAW last night, the WM build-up is shaping up nicely.

Eve riding that bull was just...wow. There are no words. <3

Also, is it just me or does The Miz look like he can't wrestle sometimes? It's like his ability on the mic is his only asset and nothing really stands out from him when he's in the ring most of the time.

 

[Marx]

According to ewrestlingnews.com, Sports Illustrated and the Associated Press have picked up the story of Undertaker's pyro accident.

 

[Bad Superman]

From WrestlingInc.com

Breaking News: Ric Flair Hospitalized
By Ryan Clark | February 23, 2010

Ric Flair is currently in the hospital, recovering from injuries suffered in the recent domestic dispute with wife Jacqueline Beems. No weapons were used in the attack, but at the time when police arrived, Flair refused treatment. Flair's agent Melinda Morris Zanoni, offered up the following statement yesterday:

"Ric and his wife had an unfortunate disagreement late last night, which led to his wife being arrested and charged with assault. Ric has done nothing wrong. The important thing to remember here is that we have some very exciting professional announcements in the near future. Ric finds this incident unsettling and is committed to correcting any issues in his personal life."

============================================

This is just sad.

 

[Hannibal Smith]

Wrestler just have no easy personal lives. Bret Hart and Shawn Michael's seems like only people who have any marriage except for maybe HHH and Stephanie but both of them are in the buisness so makes a good match

 

[Hunter Rider]

Ric is Randy the Ram.

 

[Superark]

By the way, does anyone else realize that AJ Styles right now is the best and most credible world champion right now?

That is absolutely true

 

[Bad Superman]

Ric is Randy the Ram.

That is so true. I just hope Flair doesn't end up like Randy but he's heading that way. . .

 

[Dr. Evil]

Actually, Ric is Charlie Sheen.

 

[TheFuture]

Surely the Deadman's streak is ending this year? Surely HBK ain't retiring just yet.

 

[Superark]

Some notes from the PWInsider Elite Hotline today from Mike Johnson

• Ultimate Warrior was suppose to the centerpiece of this years Hall of Fame, but Warrior pulled out of the deal recently
• Stu Hart will be the centerpiece of this years Hall of Fame and his grandkids will be induct him with Bret Hart accepting.
• Reports of Flair being hospitalized are either dated or false. He was walking around town and seen this weekend and was fine.
• One of Flair kids is the one who phoned the police.
• People backstage are expecting HBK to still be around for awhile after Wrestlemania

 

[Scourge2099]

I hope HBK doesn't lose at Wrestlemania , but I don't think Taker is ready to end the streak yet either.

 

[The Batman]

Surely the Deadman's streak is ending this year? Surely HBK ain't retiring just yet.

Its been rumored that HBK has wanted to retire for years due to injuries and a desire to be with his family more. I fully expect Michaels to retire before Taker.

It'd be a hell of a waste to see the streak broken by a 45 year old guy with accolades most wrestler cant dream of....

 

[Kaleb]

edit

 

[Kaleb]

Surely the Deadman's streak is ending this year? Surely HBK ain't retiring just yet.

hbk wont retire but im willing to be he will take an extended leave and come back towards surivor series , and maybe return in a none wrestling role. I see that happening more likely than I see takers streak ending

 

[Hannibal Smith]

Ric Flair is a wrestler of the old school kind and its hard to say never wrestle again. He is what the true symbol of a true wrestler is. You keep getting up and moving forward after getting knocked down. Yes i stole last part from Rocky Balboa but makes the point in my opinion

 

[TheFuture]

Its been rumored that HBK has wanted to retire for years due to injuries and a desire to be with his family more. I fully expect Michaels to retire before Taker.

It'd be a hell of a waste to see the streak broken by a 45 year old guy with accolades most wrestler cant dream of....

hbk wont retire but im willing to be he will take an extended leave and come back towards surivor series , and maybe return in a none wrestling role. I see that happening more likely than I see takers streak ending

That's surprising, I have heard very few rumours about HBK wanting to hang up his boots. What a shame, but he's had a good few years, he's given his career proper closure, something that didn't happen at WM14. Sure he hasn't even lost yet anyway, I know who I'll be rooting for.

 

[Scourge2099]

Ric Flair is a wrestler of the old school kind and its hard to say never wrestle again. He is what the true symbol of a true wrestler is. You keep getting up and moving forward after getting knocked down. Yes i stole last part from Rocky Balboa but makes the point in my opinion

The thing with Flair is that he got the greatest send off any wrestler could get. Instead of accepting that ambassador deal WWE gave him or maybe moving on to a job behind the scenes or opening up a wrestling school , he ruined it by going to TNA . Add the fact that he's been arrested multiple times . He's just a sad man.

 

[TheFuture]

Why did he even go to TNA? Was the WWE ambassador role worth peanuts or something?

 

[Metallo]

He didn't deserve it but it was a lot stronger push than most heels get, esepcially heels with no build up.

I'd say his push was faster but not necessarily stronger. Even heels on the current roster have had more credible wins. Orton's had stronger wins and 09 had a lot of problems for him after the Royal Rumble.

His heat was go away heat, hell he's more over now as the goofy Punjabi playboy than he ever was a a monster who's chops looks so weak it's hard to believe they'd fell a child let alone Taker.

Like I said this isn't about his work (which was awful) but his heat. And there's no doubt there was legit heat out there. Not just Xpac heat. The smart fans may have wanted him to just go away but lot of the casuals were impressed with him because he's a big freak. Thats what they want to see.

Like you said perception is reality and the perception is that he's a big impressive freak. The booking supported that. In the long run his lack of working ability cause him to slowly slide down the card once he was all used up as a special attraction.

The Playboy gimmick is over because its a comedy act. Thats a lot easier for a guy like him to make work. Just ask Hornswoggle.

It doesn't matter how long Edge has been out of the ring, he has been the biggest star in the WWE next to Cena for the last few years, he could be out 2 years and walk straight into a main event, Jericho has been working as mostly a mid card act for the last year.

I'd say HHH has been the biggest star next to Cena. Maybe Jeff Hardy in recent times. Edge was a top heel though. Edge is over and is the best heel they have but he gets the opportunity with booking that Jericho never has. If Jericho did I have little doubt he'd be on par with Edge. The office seems to think so since they've moved him into a title program with Edge.

It still doesn't give Jericho any crediblity though.

But what it led into did.

Fans on the whole do not care about skill levels in the ring, as we have said perception is reality in wrestling and the perception of Jericho is that he is the guy that runs his mouth and then loses.

Fans have also showed they appreciate a good performance. Even if it is a loosing performance. Jericho wouldn't have as much heat if he wasn't seen as a good heel who could believably slide into the main event. We've seen heels with no cred and a lot of them get no reaction. Jericho always gets good heel reactions

The lack of individuals is a big issue in the busines right now and goes back to the problem with there being no territories for guys to learn their craft in.

And the fact that Vince now seems to want guys coming up to be in a certain mold. The death of the territory system is a major reason for this but Vince himself has done nothing to change it in WWE recent years.

Which was everyone not just Jericho, I am actually not sure how this really pertains to our main topic point here lol.

You mean everyone involved in the legends angle? Because Jericho was the constant every week. He was the shepherd on screen and in some cases off screen and he had a lot of say so in how certain things went.

It shows that Jericho can guide a flawed program into something impressive just like he may be able to do with Edge at WM.

Punk's heat is essentially based off the gimmick, people will boo anything he does right now b/c he has already disparaged them all before the match has even started, so anything he does is loaded to begin with, plus I have seen Miz use mannerisms during his matches to draw the crowd hate, I think you are grossly underrating Miz, both guys are suiffering from some repetetive mic work right now though.

That means Punk has done his job. At this point just his mere presence generates heat. Miz has never used body language the way Punk has. Its not just what you do but how you do it. Punk has a better grasp of the how that works. Miz isn't on Punks level.

his wrestling persona is simply a hyped up self righteous version of his rela life personality, same as Miz, there really isn't a great deal of difference, neither can choose how they cam by being in the WWE but both have used their pasts smartly in order to create their characters, it's why both have gotten over so well.

Thats true for many wrestlers. But Punks real life background and personality wasn't a big deal to most fans before he rose through the ranks in WWE the way Miz's is. Punk took himself and projected it in a creative way. With Miz it was more or less already out there. They don't have all the control but Punk has clearly been thinking much more creatively with his character and how to portray him.

When was the last time Miz was booked with such a good angle? you make it sound like Punk did something clever when in truth it was the booking that was clever, booking is everything as this debate emphasises.

How do we know if certain things were or were not Punks ideas? As you said his persona is a magnification of his real self so that would say to me that he may have had some input.

Booking can only go so far. Its up to the performer to take those ideas and translate them into physical reality.

Its Punk who has to make the performance work. Its not the writing team its Punk. He understands certain nuances better than Miz and its showed in his work

It's no more uncreative than ripping Raven off and making it about dissing the one thing 90% off WWE's audience love.

If you mean the crucifixion deal in ECW Raven wasn't the first to use religious ideas and icons in his work and he wasn't the last. Taker crucified people as well. Punk didn't do it the same as Raven did and as far as chastising the fans heels have done that for years. Its Punks own flourishes with what he's doing that are making his gimmick work fairly well right now.

Again I think you are exagerrating on Miz' abilities, I am not sitting here saying he should be world champion but his ring work is certainly of as good a standard as many of the other guys like Ziggler, Swagger and Kofi.

Most of those guys aren't carrying titles either. Some of them can't even get on tv much these days. I'm not exaggerating on Miz's abilities. If anyone is doing that its Miz and WWE. Maybe you mean I'm being to hard on Miz and his in ring skill or lack thereof. Or exaggerating on his lack of ability?

His ring work is nothing special. The best thing Miz has going for him are his mike skills and even those can be repetitive and unimaginative. Miz's place in WWE right now says a lot about WWE's lack of understanding when it comes to pushing new stars, how to do it, priorities, and booking issues.

MVP's problem is that his working style doesn't fit his character.

MVP needs to come up with a few new moves or alter his character. Going face didn't help but he still needs to evolve. WWE never seems to know what to do with him though. But when he's on he's great. His feud with Matt Hardy helped both of them look good for a while.

You're right it is WWE's fault, however Taker is capable as he showed in the chamber of holding his own still when the occasion calls, I'll lay it on the line right now that no matter how much he is hurting him and HBK will outperform Edge Jericho on the big stage, Taker is one of the greatest big match workers ever and when it comes time to delvier he never fails.

Thats because you've got TWO greats together in HBK and Shawn. The chances are always going to be good that the two of them together can put on a great match. They could outperform almost ANY two wrestlers...not just Jericho and Edge.

Edge would only benefit if he was going to go over Taker and there's no guarentee that would happen. If Edge looses TWICE to Taker what good goes that do him? Even still it wouldn't be as good as going in there and working with a 100 percent healthy Undertaker. And after Mania he'd be gone win or loose. At least with Jericho that may leave Edge with something to do for awhile.

As great as Taker is he needed to drop the belt to conserve himself for Mania...whoever its against. Since Edge won the rumble that means he goes after the champ. Like I said if they were going to do something different they should had gotten on that road in December.

As tough as he is even the deadman can't outrace mother nature and father time though. And right now he needs the best there is, HBK, to make sure this match comes off as great as it possibly can if he does give up the streak. It has to OUTDO last year. Even if it was Edge vs Taker. Giving up the streak has to be done in a fantastic match. I'd rather not see HBk vs Taker this year but I have no doubt they will impress. The question is how good will it be?

 

[Metallo]

If Shawn loses then retires, only to come out of retirement months later, it would cheapen the match and end result. If Undertaker's "sacred" streak is the on the line then the retirement has to genuine.

I doubt it is genuine. Wrestling has done so many retirement angles or fire angles i've lost count. When Shawns REAL retirement comes trust me we'll know. and with a living legend like him it won't be cheapened as much as you fear. Who knows how it will go.

 

[Scourge2099]

Why did he even go to TNA? Was the WWE ambassador role worth peanuts or something?

I think he went to TNA because they were going to put him on air and his ego loves the fact that he'll be seen by millions instead of maybe thousands when he's out promoting the WWE. He also has all those legal troubles and I'm sure he talked TNA into giving him a hefty paycheck , but that's what happens when you blow your money on booze , women and drugs.