To me a few things because my fingers are getting tired of this. lol
1. BO revenue does not alone equate equality. Transformers, and many other films that are usually agreed to be meh or terrible do well. Hell even in proportion those "Scary Movies" continue to do something. The OT still after inflation sold way more then the PT so again, if we will use that as an indicator it still says, the OT was much more loved, because it made even ESB and ROTJ in after inflation did more then the PT films.
Sure, but the OT made more after inflation than most modern blockbusters. They also stayed in the theaters much longer, were re-released several times, and had no home video market to contend with. Not excuses. Just saying it's hard to compare different eras. If you look at the all time top box office adjusted for inflation..it is primarily older movies, no?
2. You keep getting into perspective. And a part of me goes....well yea of course. There is perspective of everything. But if you continue just to argue that we will get into some kind of psychedelic, nothing is real kind of argument. It does not really pertain to what I'm saying.
It does.. simply because you often use your subjective response to the movie as a factual piece of evidence to argue with.
For example: Caring about core characters emotions in the Original Trilogy, but not in The Prequels. That's YOUR reality/response. Not mine. Not everyone's. I am sure that many feel the way you do, but that doesn't make your claim/pov "the right one" or "more true."
Go back to your original response to how I answered the OP's questions: "Sorry so much of that is wrong". That's what you started off with. Probably because because it's not your perspective/perception. It's mine.
You yourself keep saying you know the quality of the PT is much less then the OT, and yet then you negate that and almost argue against it saying no. So I guess I"m confused. I know your saying it is not as bad, but you are admitting that the OT is pretty much a better all around experience?
Hmm, I never once said the OT is better in quality. I said, in general, I prefer the OT. I think each Trilogy has merits and flaws to be heralded or picked apart.
The thing is this is not the posts of a "hater". I give every film a chance. And rarely go into my disdain for a film. This is an exception.
Why is the exception?
But the thing is you can try to say how many subjective things there are. But there is a point in the real world in many situations where you do have standards, and objective measures, or as objective as you can get. Box office does not always equate to quality.
I agree entirely. Some of my favorite films made little money.
That said, box office
can be used as a barometer for popularity/cultural significance, etc.
It THE barometer the studios use. Believe you me, if it weren't you'd get no more Transformers, Pirates of the Caribbean, etc. and James Bond franchise would have died in the 70's.
My whole point is on film making 101. Not just I liked it because. And with in those fields yes there is always exceptions.
Is there a few people that really don't like TDK and other popular films? Of course. But there are measures that people use that are as objective as they can be to at least give some what of a consensus. Metacritic, and Rotten Tomatoes can give general (I mean general) indications of it. Where as some of these people in conglomerate have more experience with the craft called film. You have measures of awards ect. Just like in school is the grading systems perfect? Hell no, but they can give some general view of a person. As can films. IMDB and many other sites where millions rate it, can have somewhat of a perspective on it. Not the best but more objective then not. From the ratings you have 300,000 people giving ROTS a 7.7/10 whereas out of 900,000 user ratings you have a 9.0/10 for TDK. Are these perfect measures? No but they are better then "My experience/your experience" for a more massive intake of what is happening.
Is it better? It still boils down to people subjectively judging art based on personal preference. Just because you add thousands or millions of opinions to it, and quantify it in a general consensus doesn't make it a fact...it is just numerous amounts of opinions.
Listen, tired fingers or not, I much prefer to talk about appreciation of films/art/Star Wars with you, Solidus, one on one. Don't you think that's better gauge and more authentic than seeing if what you/I like is deemed "officially cool" by the masses/numbers on the internet?
With all the conglomerations of review sites, teachers, books and talks of the PT, it is (even to many PT fans) clear that many did not think nearly as great of the PT as they did the OT.
Sure, but that doesn't make it a true fact. Just opinion. Something that changes all of the time. See: Wizard of Oz. We touched on this earlier: Which is the best Bond film ever? Goldfinger? Skyfall? Casino Royale? The Spy Who Loved Me? OHMSS? Does rottentomatoes or metacritic really hold the truth about this? Are you telling me you've never loved a movie with less than an 80% fresh rating?
There is always subjectivity, but there are some core aspects that can be seen somewhat objectively. Are they always right? No. But the thing is if we say that, we could never get many things said in any regard and just always rebuttal for the sake of it. So is it better than nothing? I say yes.
Got any Barney Stinson in you? Accept a challenge:
Give me 5 (non subjective) core aspects that you can use in determining which is a better movie: Revenge of the Sith vs Return of the Jedi?
Keep in mind, I already told you that ROTJ is my very favorite movie..as I said, I don't have a horse in this race. You went to film school, though.
My point is, the PT is not seen in the high regards of the OT to, fans (from fan ratings) to GA (Box office if you want to use that). To the film community, critics, like RT, like Metacritic, like The Academy Awards, and top 10 lists or critic circle awards, or AFI ect ect. Now as your point of ROTJ? Will it ever be something in the AFI, no I would say not. ROTJ still a great film, but started the signs of downfall which continued with the PT.
Never once was I trying to put the PT over the OT.
I simply responded to the OP's question of: What's all the fan complaining about? I think it irritates you because I am suggesting it has to do more with the nature of hardcore fandom of any kind, than it does with the actual movie/film/art/music/etc.
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here are variances of thoughts on ROTJ, from fans, GA, critics ect. It rated an 8.4 out of 350,000 fan votes on IMDB. Now are these perfect, no there are some that disagree and that's just fine. But to me when you average a lot of this stuff out from Box Office Mojo, to Yahoo movies ect, when you pull what statistics you can (yes there is always error in it) You can paint a better picture then saying "Yes I think so, or no I think that."
Ultimately, that means nothing though. ROTJ kicks butt of every film ever made. You know that, right?
To make my point, I actually love The Fountain, Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions, and more so Quantum of Solace. But funny enough, I know that these are not loved by the masses, and I know I'm in a minority, even though it did some what decent in sales/critic circles (barley decent) so I can sit there and say. "Yea I loved that movie, but I'm not going to lie and say everyone loves it to make me feel better." I look at what few objective measures we have. And even if I see the massive flaws in a film, there are times where I can't explain why I like it, but I don't try to rationalize and tell others that that is wrong.
To my point:
I like all of the "unpopular" movies you listed, except for
Matrix Revolutions. Yet, I am not going to try convince you that Revolutions is factually crap. Because, honestly, it wasn't crap. It just wasn't what I like, expected, and wanted to see.
I am not going to point opinions of legions of fanboys on the internet, nor legit movie critics to try to prove factually to you the movie was crap. Popular opinion doesn't support/negate that. Again, I didn't like Matrix Revolutions at all. Does that make it a crap movie? Nope. It was in many ways better executed than the original Matrix. It's just not my cup of tea. That's all. Get it?
Nor am I saying it's wrong that some like the PT, for what ever varying reasons. However, I can see that there is a clear difference to most between the two sagas. And to me what little evidence we can pull, I'd say ya I feel I have more of a strong point. And to me Red Letter Media really put an exclamation on it with very good strong strong points.
Which if you had the time, or passion, to spend on a movie you detest, you could whip something very similar and convincing to what Red Letter Media did, but with The Godfather, or Jaws, or Mac and Me.
But I do find it interesting. Did you join these forums just for this discussion alone?.... We have lots more out there lots of fun in these boards.
Nope I joined just because they finally added a Star Wars section and I wanted to check it out.